Author Topic: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out  (Read 6056 times)

MicroBalrog

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Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« on: April 20, 2009, 01:33:00 AM »
Saturday, Apr. 04, 2009
Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
By Scott Haig

This week the House voted 298 to 112 to give the Food and Drug Administration the power to regulate tobacco along with food and drugs. Ted Kennedy will soon introduce his version of the bill in the Senate. The White House supports the bill: "Tobacco use is a major factor driving the increasing costs of health care in the U.S.," said a statement by the Office of Management and Budget, "and accounts for over a hundred billion dollars annually in financial costs to the economy."

Which begs the question: Why regulate it at all? Why put cigarettes under the jurisdiction of the agency charged with making sure our food and drugs are safe, when cigarettes are, as we all know by now, unsafe by definition. Used as intended, they are bound to make you sick. Rather than equate them with food and drugs, if lawmakers were serious about the health costs of smoking, they would take the logical next step and just make the damn things illegal. (See pictures of vintage smoking advertisements.)

Upon launching his campaign, President Obama stopped smoking. Quite publicly. Letting the world see him chew gum and fidget with his pencils was an invaluable example. I have now practiced long enough to have seen scores of people, more than a few of whom I've loved, get miserably sick and die from tobacco use. I've pointed to the black spot on their X-ray and watched strong men and women collapse, touched the smoke-grown tumors in the operating room, the path lab, even on those poor experimental bunnies' ears and I'm convinced. You can be dubious about global warming if you want — but not about cigarettes. They absolutely do cause cancer, vascular and lung disease — the things that kill most of us. I've watched scores quit too, seen their skin get pinker, their wounds heal faster, their lungs work better. It's true: No matter when they quit they're better off for it.

Not many of us in medicine smoke cigarettes any more. Few who live in the fancy zipcodes do either. Cigarettes, to an extent, have become an indicator of lower socioeconomic status. This week public hospitals were handing out free nicotine patches as the federal cigarette tax more than doubled, to $1.01, which means that in places like New York City a pack costs more than $9, sometimes more than $10. Like the lottery, this is exactly what Democrats should hate — a tax on the poor. (Do Dems stay silent on cigarettes because the government needs the money?) Certainly, in this economic climate, passing sin taxes is more tempting than ever. But the value of a cigarette tax depends on enough people continuing to smoke, and no matter how much revenue streams in, it pales before the estimated $100 billion in health-care costs caused annually by cigarettes.

Apart from the proven power of the tobacco lobby, perhaps lawmakers fear the unintended consequences of stronger action: The intensely addictive quality of smoking certainly means that a black market would thrive in the face of an outright ban. Homegrown tobacco wrapped in E-Z Widers would surely be passed around behind the bleachers.

While I'm not sure I agree with every moral dimension of the tax, I do know that far fewer people will die from cigarettes because of it than are dying now. Past tax hikes have showed that smoking is price sensitive: Fewer kids start smoking and more smokers quit with each increase in the cost of a pack. Government "quit lines" got record numbers of calls on April 1, the day the current tax took effect. Restaurant smoking bans have also helped; so have ad campaigns about the dangers of smoking. Finding any and every way to deter and defeat the habit — including outlawing cigarettes and levying fines (no, not jail terms) for possession — would be a huge benefit to both our physical and fiscal health.

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Standing Wolf

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Re: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2009, 01:48:35 AM »
No shortage of vicious little busybodies masquerading as "health experts."
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

BridgeRunner

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Re: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2009, 02:18:30 AM »
People have been doing dumb things that have caused them health problems since the beginning of time.  Since the beginning of medicine, people have been spending resources paying for care to fix their dumb behavior.

What irks me is that it's ever so much more fun for politicians to focus on correcting problems like smoking or eating habits/obesity or sedentary lifestyle than to admit they need to address the issues of health problems and resultant costs that are not caused by lifestyle choices.

Friend of mine just spend several days ill due to a drug interaction/withdrawal.  She has bipolar disorder.  She will take medications for the rest of her life, and intermittently have periods of acute illness.  Quitting smoking or ramping up her exercise routine ain't gonna change that.  I've got asthma.  I am already at a healthy weight, don't smoke, and exercise as much as medical advice indicates is safe, which lately isn't much at all.  Anti-smoking campaigns or encouraging exercise isn't going to change the amount of money it takes to keep me healthy.  A cousin has type I diabetes.  His health is pretty costly to maintain, from insulin pump to frequent specialist visits.  Again, no lifestyle programs are gonna change that, although he does have to pretty careful with those things, he clearly takes of those things, as evidenced by his being alive.  And none of these cases get into thorny end-of-life issues.  Between the three of us, we range in age from 20-31.  Although all of us are productive citizens, none have high incomes, none can afford care, all are seriously constrained in non-sensical ways by the increasingly unusable health care and insurance systems. 

But it's much more fun to focus on smoking, drinking, drugs, exercise, and fast food.

drewtam

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Re: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2009, 08:22:30 AM »
The obvious result of socialist health care. Under a private system, the smoker's failing health is the smoker's problem. Under socialist health care, its a state problem -and therefore we all have a right to tell each other how to live at the point of a gun.
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RaspberrySurprise

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Re: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2009, 10:13:46 AM »
A much simpler solution is for public health care not to pay for things like smoking and drinking related illnesses, do the same for other drugs as well. You want to destroy your own body, go right ahead, but you have to pay for the consequences on your own dime.
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zahc

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Re: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2009, 10:27:33 AM »
Except that it's not feasible to determine what is or is not a "smoking related illness", unless you mean that by smoking your forfeit all medical care privileges.
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Seenterman

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Re: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2009, 10:41:31 AM »
Keep raising the damn tax on cigarettes because of the health burden we cause?
Well I want free damn healthcare then; is this the new social security. Is their some smoker free health clinic Im not aware of, I've been paying to go to the doctor and insurance like a fool all this damn time!

Marnoot

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Re: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2009, 11:45:12 AM »
Quote
Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out

Those are pretty cheap...



 :angel:

taurusowner

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Re: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2009, 11:48:07 AM »
How is protecting us from our own choice of what we eat or inhale part of the Federal Government's Constitutional powers?

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2009, 12:41:02 PM »
The obvious result of socialist health care. Under a private system, the smoker's failing health is the smoker's problem. Under socialist health care, its a state problem -and therefore we all have a right to tell each other how to live at the point of a gun.
Yup.

HankB

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Re: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2009, 01:58:19 PM »
How is protecting us from our own choice of what we eat or inhale part of the Federal Government's Constitutional powers?
It's because it affects interstate commerce, of course.  ;/
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2009, 03:25:45 PM »
Quote
Not many of us in medicine smoke cigarettes any more. Few who live in the fancy zipcodes do either. Cigarettes, to an extent, have become an indicator of lower socioeconomic status.

What complete and utter BS.  Drive around behind any clinic, or some lonely corner of a hospital, and tell me what you see.

Brad
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2009, 03:31:19 PM »
What complete and utter BS.  Drive around behind any clinic, or some lonely corner of a hospital, and tell me what you see.

I think he's talking about doctors rather than all people in health-related fields.  Plenty of hospital workers are regular chimneys, but I dunno any doctors who smoke.  Fewer and fewer mid-level practitioners and nurses.  It's mostly the lowly techs and transporters and other such folks who are smoking just off the grounds in every hospital.

BridgeRunner

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Re: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2009, 03:37:25 PM »
How is protecting us from our own choice of what we eat or inhale part of the Federal Government's Constitutional powers?

"Article I, Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

Brad Johnson

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Re: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2009, 03:41:47 PM »
I think he's talking about doctors rather than all people in health-related fields.

If so, that's even worse BS.

A number of the doctors I know from the range "don't smoke", taking occasion to lecture me when I step back mid-session to enjoy a puff or two of my last remaining vice.

No, they don't smoke.  Instead they have a humidor full of fine cigars "to enjoy, on occasion, with a fine single malt".  The fact that their "occasions" run about two per day is never mentioned.  Most have learned not to lecture me about that range smoke lest I make a rather loud and lengthy announcement about their "hobby".

Brad

« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 03:45:36 PM by Brad Johnson »
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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Balog

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Re: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2009, 03:44:23 PM »
"Article I, Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"


I lol'ed. You'd have to be a lawyer to have the audacity to make that claim.
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2009, 03:46:34 PM »
I lol'ed. You'd have to be a lawyer to have the audacity to make that claim.

Where's the audacity again?  They passed a tax.  They pretty clearly have the authority to do so.  What's the issue?

Is your problem that you don't think the constitution says that or that you think that the constitution somehow doesn't mean what it says?

Balog

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Re: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2009, 03:58:49 PM »
Ragnar's question was about where the fed.gov derived the authority to "protect us from our choices" ie .gov healthcare, which the taxes are needed for. The passage you quoted shows the feds can lay taxes, but does not address his question. I'm assuming you were referring to the "general welfare" part as justification for the fed.gov giving healthcare out. I apologize, you apparently just misread the original question and answered something he didn't ask.
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

tokugawa

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Re: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2009, 04:08:31 PM »
I can think of no quicker , surer way to start a war that to outlaw smokes. Lotsa bad, BAD tempers would result, and it would take some time before the black market could get up to speed-  whhooooeeee-! =D

BridgeRunner

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Re: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2009, 04:13:45 PM »
Ragnar's question was about where the fed.gov derived the authority to "protect us from our choices" ie .gov healthcare, which the taxes are needed for. The passage you quoted shows the feds can lay taxes, but does not address his question. I'm assuming you were referring to the "general welfare" part as justification for the fed.gov giving healthcare out. I apologize, you apparently just misread the original question and answered something he didn't ask.

I think the phrase "protect us from our choices" is pretty ambiguous.  The article is in the context of the recent cigarette tax hike. 

Please don't apologize to me for something you state that I did incorrectly. 

LadySmith

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Re: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2009, 04:16:07 PM »
Quote
Rather than equate them with food and drugs, if lawmakers were serious about the health costs of smoking, they would take the logical next step and just make the damn things illegal.

That worked really well for alcohol.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2009, 04:19:08 PM »
Quote
I think the phrase "protect us from our choices" is pretty ambiguous.

No, it isn't.  It only becomes ambiguous is when people want to enfore their choice of lifestyle on others.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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Balog

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Re: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2009, 04:21:04 PM »
/sigh

Let me try again. Your statement appeared to be foolish, and I criticized you for it. I realized you had not, in fact, said something foolish merely misunderstood the question. I apologize for criticizing you for something you did not do.

Ragnar's statement is pretty clear. Although speaking about a tax, the only reason for the tax is unConstitutional.
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Seenterman

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Re: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2009, 04:31:10 PM »
Quote
Where's the audacity again?  They passed a tax.  They pretty clearly have the authority to do so.  What's the issue?

Is your problem that you don't think the constitution says that or that you think that the constitution somehow doesn't mean what it says?

Where does it say in the Constitution that the government can regulate what we take into our bodies?

What would you say if they issued that fabled 500% tax increase on ammunition?

What pricing people out of a unhealthy habit is some how less evil that pricing people out of a Constitutional guaranteed right? I mean where does it say that we have to make the 2nd Amendment affordable? Or you have a right to do detrimental things to your body? And please don't say their not trying to price us out, they claimed that as one of the biggest selling points of the tax and I smoke a hell of alot more than anyone shoots.  

But seriously they keep claiming that smokers cost the health industry more. How!? Where do I sign up for free smoker medical care. I was under the impression smokers still had to pay for any medical treatment, which in my opinion would actually make smokers pay more than non smokers. Why & How? Because smokers get sick more often, worse than non smokers and when they get cancer they pay and arm and a leg to live a little more, but who gets that money? Doctors and the health care industry!! I though when you visited a doctor and got treatment he got paid, would he be better off with no patients? So if someone can please tell me how smokers cost the medical industry, please post that info here because its starting to sound like the infamous Kellerman statistic of Your 2x more likely to die due to your own firearm than to stop an intruder or whatever vile filth he was passing off as statistics.

P.S. Why not raise the tax on alcohol! More people use it than tobacco, My smoking doesn't get anyone killed accidentally or endanger you on the roads, oh but tobaccos alcohol's weaker and unpopular cousin.

BridgeRunner

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Re: Fixing Health Care Cheaply, Chapter 1: Butt Out
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2009, 04:34:28 PM »
No, it isn't.  It only becomes ambiguous is when people want to enfore their choice of lifestyle on others.

WTH?

Clearly, the tax is designed to protect people from their own choices.  Clearly, the implementation of a socialized health scheme is designed to protect people from their own choices.  Clearly, any number of laws, taxes, programs, and proposed laws, taxes, and programs are designed--whether effective or not, constitutional or not--to protect people from their own choices.

I chose to interpret the comment in the context of the subject of the article: ways to increase general health by regulating--through the tax which is a reality or through other means which the author is proposing--cigarette smoking.  

In response to his question about the constitutionality of "protecting people from their own choices"--by a means which was not explicitly names--I cited the constitutional clause that allowed the tax at issue to have been levied.

How again does this make me an advocate of imposing my lifestyle choices on others?

It would be useful to make distinctions between political philosophies and the law.  Not every tax with which I disagree is necessarily unconstitutional, nor is every law with which I disagree necessarily unconstitutional.  

Of course, this whole thread is merely another indicator of why I've radically decreased posting here since the election.