fifty caliber near miss, dangerous?

[gunsmith]

a friend on facebook is saying something strange that I never heard before and that I also doubt .... he claims that if some one shoots at you with a fifty caliber rifle, and the bullet misses you within 6 inches - you will still suffer serious injury .... is that BS or true?
I doubt it but I have learned that if I do not know I had better check with those who do.

[Boomhauer]

Bullshit

The guncounter experts claim that the bullet's "shock wave" is deadly if the bullet misses you. It's pure and utter bullshit.

They also claim that a hit in the arm or other extremity is immediately, absolutely, always fatal due to "hydrostatic shock".

These claims will also often be made in the same breath as the claim of "it's illegal to fire a .50 cal at a human being so the military is taught to aim at belt buckles because it's destroying military equipment"

[dogmush]

It's crap, but it'it's a crap story that'that's been floating around the military for years.

[just Warren]

I wonder how many old-time soldiers or sailors didn't die when just narrowly missed by some huge iron sphere when it went whistling by them in the midst of battle. Miracles!

Wellington himself was right next to a man when that man's leg was taken right off by a cannonball yet the Iron Duke suffered no ill effects. Miracle!

I myself, as a very small child ran out into a roadway after something shiny and was missed by an inch by a car that was driving at well above the speed-limit. Other than a smart bottom from a well-deserved spanking I suffered no injury. Miracle!

[onions!]

I remember similar stories made by the makers of Black Rhino ammunition years ago.A near miss was purpoted to be fatal 110% of the time.
IIRC,the media had a field day with that one.

I can picture CCWing a Howdah pistol firing 50 Browning blanks.If all I need is a shock wave...

[birdman]

Bullshit

The guncounter experts claim that the bullet's "shock wave" is deadly if the bullet misses you. It's pure and utter bullshit.

They also claim that a hit in the arm or other extremity is immediately, absolutely, always fatal due to "hydrostatic shock".

These claims will also often be made in the same breath as the claim of "it's illegal to fire a .50 cal at a human being so the military is taught to aim at belt buckles because it's destroying military equipment"

Insane claims.
Though while not immediately fatal, a 50cal hit to an extremity will likely end the close relationship one has had with that extremity, resulting in blood loss (possibly fatal) and shock.

[RevDisk]

Mythbusters, Episode 123 – Curving Bullet, tested this myth with glass. It was busted. The sonic wake wouldn't break glass, so it won't hurt people.

[Boomhauer]

Insane claims.
Though while not immediately fatal, a 50cal hit to an extremity will likely end the close relationship one has had with that extremity, resulting in blood loss (possibly fatal) and shock.

Oh I agree, a .50 cal hit to an  extremity would almost certainly cause a rapid death unless someone immediately applied a tourniquet but not the ridiculous "as soon as it hits the arm the shockwave travels through the body and turns everything to goo" bs that comes up every time the .50 cal is discussed.

[RevDisk]

Oh I agree, a .50 cal hit to an  extremity would almost certainly cause a rapid death unless someone immediately applied a tourniquet but not the ridiculous "as soon as it hits the arm the shockwave travels through the body and turns everything to goo" bs that comes up every time the .50 cal is discussed.

Newton's Third Law of Motion. Unless my physics is mistaken, every action equal and opposite reaction. The amount of force hitting the person downrange is equal to the amount of force hitting the shoulder of the person firing, minus inefficiencies. For the Barrett, you do have recoil springs to help, so think bolt action .50 BMG to simplify the mental math. It stings a bit, but the shockwave traveling the body of the shooter is not lethal.

The projectiles are lethal because they concentrate all the force into a small area (less mass) and they have a small frontal cross-section. A bullet is very small, compared mass of a rifle.

So, to simulate the shockwave impact of a .50 BMG, put your hand or finger against a solid backrest, place a bolt action rifle on a near frictionless recoil platform against it, and pull the trigger. That is the MOST "shockwave" damage that will be caused. The downrange equivalent will be less, in terms of force and thus shockwave. It will be more concentrated, which is the entire point.

[Harold Tuttle]

A Birdman Nuke 50 bmg will kill a man just by being loaded in a rifle 100 yards away from the victim.

[K Frame]

Don't you dumbshits know anything?

It's PROVEN that this is true!

First off, everyone knows that it's a VIOLATION OF THE ART AND LAW OF WAR!! to actually shoot AT someone with a .50!

You MUST shoot at their equipment!

If you're captured by the enemy with a .50 BMG sniper rifle, it's an affirmative defense if you claim that you were only shooting at equipment. The enemy is then required to give you a lolly and set you free.

But, it's from this shooting at equipment in COMPLIANCE WITH THE ART AND LAW OF WAR!! that we know just how deadly the percusioconcussion sonic wave is, otherwise how would all of those enemy soldiers end up dead when only their equipment was targeted?

[Boomhauer]

Don't you dumbshits know anything?

It's PROVEN that this is true!

First off, everyone knows that it's a VIOLATION OF THE ART AND LAW OF WAR!! to actually shoot AT someone with a .50!

You MUST shoot at their equipment!

If you're captured by the enemy with a .50 BMG sniper rifle, it's an affirmative defense if you claim that you were only shooting at equipment. The enemy is then required to give you a lolly and set you free.

But, it's from this shooting at equipment in COMPLIANCE WITH THE ART AND LAW OF WAR!! that we know just how deadly the percusioconcussion sonic wave is, otherwise how would all of those enemy soldiers end up dead when only their equipment was targeted?

GENEVA CONVENTION!!!!!!1111!!!!! Shotguns R Illegal!11!!!!! Shoot at belt buckles!

[HankB]

A near-miss by a .50 IS dangerous - it means somebody is shooting at you with a .50!! 

I recently read in Paulson's book on silencers that a 7.62x51 rifle produces ~168dB at 1m to the the side of the muzzle, most of this is certainly muzzle blast. A good suppressor will knock 30-35dB off that, putting an upper limit on the flight noise. (Note that NO suppressor is 100% effective on silencing the muzzle blast.) I've heard these (and larger) rounds passing by from a sheltered position downrange, and the supersonic "crack" was bothersome unless wearing hearing protection - but was only a fraction as loud as the muzzle blast. Scaling up to .50 won't add THAT much to the flight noise, but if it passes within 6" of your ear, it will probably make you wish for hearing protection. (While you're ducking for cover.)

A table in Paulson's book claims NATO data indicates 220dB is lethal; I don't see how the flight noise of a near-miss from a .50, well downrange from the muzzle, will come anywhere NEAR this level - given the log nature of dB measurements, it will be many orders of magnitude lower.

[K Frame]

"A table in Paulson's book claims NATO data indicates 220dB is lethal"

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think that sounds over 200 dB are possible in air. http://wordpress.mrreid.org/2011/01/18/the-loudest-sound/

[41magsnub]

The army was bad about propagating the "shooting at their equipment" thing.  Every M2 range I went to some senior NCO would do that spiel followed by a wink and a nod.

[AJ Dual]

"A table in Paulson's book claims NATO data indicates 220dB is lethal"

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think that sounds over 200 dB are possible in air. http://wordpress.mrreid.org/2011/01/18/the-loudest-sound/

At some point, it's like talking about "heat".

The sun's corona might be "3.5 million degrees", however, assuming you were shielded from direct exposure from the photosphere, you'd freeze-dry from boiling/evaporative cooling because while it's "3.5 million degrees" it's almost hard vacuum as compared to terrestrial conditions, and it's ability to heat your body through conduction or radiation is almost nill. Or how the core where the fusion happens is roughly 27 million degrees.  It's more just a measurement of energy than it is a temperature in any sense we'd think about it even at the extremities of human experience, like lava or molten metals.

I think sounds in earth's atmosphere over 200dB probably would be hypersonic shockwaves or compressive heating effects with stripped electrons and plasma like meteors and spacecraft on re-entry experience. Then it comes down to how the protons repulse each other and if that's "sound" or not as compared to the more normal kinetic air molecule collisions which max Decibels in air is based on.

So higher energy phenomena are probably possible, you can inject more energy into air than it can sustain at maximum sound pressure possible, but the state of the matter is going to change and the whole scenario operates on a different paradigm. Gas to Plasma etc.

[K Frame]

So, let's boil all of AJ's mumbo jumbo bullshit down to a core truth...


There might be a slight ringing in your ears.


Fortunately, you won't be anywhere near them.

[KD5NRH]

The army was bad about propagating the "shooting at their equipment" thing.  Every M2 range I went to some senior NCO would do that spiel followed by a wink and a nod.

Body armor is equipment.  Uniforms are equipment.  NVGs, glasses, contact lenses, etc. are equipment.  The backpack of the guy facing you is equipment full of equipment.

On the other hand, shooting at the belt buckle with a .50 should produce a wound that's not immediately fatal, but thoroughly debilitating, and incredibly demoralizing to all the target's allies within sight.

[230RN]

and the bullet misses you within 6 inches - you will still suffer serious injury

The first thing I asked myself was how come sonic booms and the shock wave from meteors (like the late one in Russia) can break windows and do other substantial damage?

The second thing I asked myself was, how come the shock wave from a bullet going hypersonically through a piece of target paper doesn't make a hole in the paper bigger than the bullet?

I don't know about the "six inches," and the "serious injury," but it still seems to me that shock waves (as in a .50 going by) can do some damage.  But I reckon it's a question of  closeness and the material the shock wave is hitting.

Having never been shot at, all I can do is guesstimize from my comfy couch, that at some degree of closeness, the shock wave itself might be able to deliver a substantial thwack to a bag of water like the human body.

So I guess it's a matter of scaling.   I reckon I wouldn't want to be too close to a 16" naval rifle shell as it went by.  On the other hand,  I don't think the overpressure wave (shock wave) of a .50 going by at, say, 6 inches, would do much tissue damage except to my ears.

Anyone who's served in the pits at a high power rifle match can testify that you definitely need "ears" over your ears because of the shock waves of the bullets overhead.

So it seems that the "6 inches" and the "serious" might be one of those exaggerations of a snippet of truth, like the legend that the Norden Bomb Sight can put a bomb in a pickle barrel from six miles up.

An exaggeration, yes, but I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that, "close enough" might generate a bruise on naked skin if the bullet went by "close enough."

And I reach over to my end table for another sip of coffee, preparing to theorize about something else for a while.

Terry, 230RN

[KD5NRH]

The second thing I asked myself was, how come the shock wave from a bullet going hypersonically through a piece of target paper doesn't make a hole in the paper bigger than the bullet?

Considering how snug a fit you get if you use an unfired .243 bullet to check a hole made by a ~3700fps .243 bullet, (making sure it wasn't a hole from the .25-06) I'm always amazed that there don't seem to be any other effects causing more tearing when it passes through.

[Firethorn]

The first thing I asked myself was how come sonic booms and the shock wave from meteors (like the late one in Russia) can break windows and do other substantial damage?

Overpressure.  It's like an air Tsunami.  Windows tend to break at 1 PSI of overpressure.  Consider a 2' square window.  That's equivalent to 576 POUNDS slamming into it.  You think it's going to hold?  Humans are tougher in this mode - 3.5PSI for 'likely serious injury'.  8 PSI tends to destroy buildings.

The second thing I asked myself was, how come the shock wave from a bullet going hypersonically through a piece of target paper doesn't make a hole in the paper bigger than the bullet?

There's not really any 'shockwave'.  The bullet isn't producing even 1PSI 1" away from it.  Paper isn't thick enough to generate it's own shockwave.

I don't know about the "six inches," and the "serious injury," but it still seems to me that shock waves (as in a .50 going by) can do some damage.  But I reckon it's a question of  closeness and the material the shock wave is hitting.

Unless the material the round is hitting is contact-sensitive explosive, or in the case of the round's shockwave(not actual contact) the material is something as sensitive as a house of cards, unlikely.  Even in the card's case you're going to have to get very, very close.

Having never been shot at, all I can do is guesstimize from my comfy couch, that at some degree of closeness, the shock wave itself might be able to deliver a substantial thwack to a bag of water like the human body.

The only organ of the human body that's really going to notice are the ears, and they've evolved to detect subtle differences in pressure known as 'sound waves'.

[230RN]

@ KD5NRH's remarks, 2 posts up:

Yep.  I usually find it's helpful to take variables from minus infinity, through -1, through 0, through +1, and on to plus infinity.  That's why I contrasted the shock wave from a meteor to the shock wave of a hypersonic bullet going through paper.

So I recognize there might be a small element of "near-truth" in the "6 inches" and the "serious damage."

Scaling.

Terry

[HankB]

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think that sounds over 200 dB are possible in air. http://wordpress.mrreid.org/2011/01/18/the-loudest-sound/  

Only reporting what Paulson claims came from NATO - 220 dB is lethal. Other websites assert that above 194dB, it's no longer sound, but a shock wave.

Makes me want to pick up a book on acoustics.  

[Boomhauer]

might be one of those exaggerations of a snippet of truth, like the legend that the Norden Bomb Sight can put a bomb in a pickle barrel from six miles up.

The problem is these idiots insist on the "shockwave of the bullet is utterly harmful" like it's gospel.

The .50BMG is a fairly large projectile as far as a rifle is concerned but it is not traveling at an outrageous velocity or anything. It doesn't have any magical properties or anything (other than the myths attributed to it)

[grampster]

Thou art all fools.  Don't thee know that Luke Skywalker destroyed the Death Star with a .50 caliber BMG?  One and done.  That is all.