Dispatches from Ice Station Barry

[Ben]

Who knows, maybe we are headed into another serious cooling period and the seas will retreat a bit, enough to uncover lots of bronze & *lithic age archaological sites.

Artifacts are already being discovered where arctic ice is melting, just as artifacts are being discovered 200 feet and more underwater. Which you would think would make people think about how they got "under the ice"  and "underwater" in the first place.

Even in the relatively short time span of humanity in planetary timescales, our ancestors seem to have been able to adapt and move as ice formed and melted.  We seem to be the first generation whose reaction is to run around waving our arms about impending doom.

[Firethorn]

Even in the relatively short time span of humanity in planetary timescales, our ancestors seem to have been able to adapt and move as ice formed and melted.  We seem to be the first generation whose reaction is to run around waving our arms about impending doom.

That's mainly due to population and infrastructure levels.  Due to the population we're using a higher percentage of land than ever before, and we have more invested into the infrastructure as well.

Indeed, I think 'land ownership' is a relatively new concept, thus the idea that you paid millions for land that's slipping into or being covered by the sea is a might unsettling to the sorts of people who buy sea-side property without realizing that their investment is, shall we say, somewhat temporary.

[Ben]

That's mainly due to population and infrastructure levels.  Due to the population we're using a higher percentage of land than ever before, and we have more invested into the infrastructure as well.

Indeed, I think 'land ownership' is a relatively new concept, thus the idea that you paid millions for land that's slipping into or being covered by the sea is a might unsettling to the sorts of people who buy sea-side property without realizing that their investment is, shall we say, somewhat temporary.

I agree with you that our modern structures limit our options. Our ancestors could just fold up their tents and move a couple of miles.

While things like major ports are an example of issues that must be addressed*, I don't feel too sorry for the knuckleheads that built their 5000 sq ft homes 100 feet from the ocean.

*By "addressed" I mean we need to examine how we'll adjust infrastructure if needed, not "OMG stop climate change!"

[230RN]

*By "addressed" I mean we need to examine how we'll adjust infrastructure if needed, not "OMG stop climate change!"

Good point.  But I guess I have to readjust my thinking on how fast sea ice re-forms after an icebreaker goes through.

[Firethorn]

Good point.  But I guess I have to readjust my thinking on how fast sea ice re-forms after an icebreaker goes through.

Even that 'depends'.  Springtime, preceding the first trips through the melting pack?  Could last all summer.  Winter-time for some scientific mission or emergency supply trip?  You might get 1-2 ships behind the icebreaker before it freezes up again.  Heck, you might be restricted to the cargo capacity of the icebreaker itself.

[dm1333]

Overall, sea ice is the same or greater, as the antarctic currently has record high levels of ice the last year.  Doubt that will contribute to rising seal levels much. 

Who knows, maybe we are headed into another serious cooling period and the seas will retreat a bit, enough to uncover lots of bronze & *lithic age archaological sites.

Thermal expansion, not sea ice melting, is driving rising sea levels.  Ice from glaciers or ice sheets on land will contribute to rising sea levels.

[Scout26]

IIRC from High Schrul Chemistry, doesn't water contract when it's heated and expand when cooled/frozen? 

[RevDisk]

That's mainly due to population and infrastructure levels.  Due to the population we're using a higher percentage of land than ever before, and we have more invested into the infrastructure as well.

Indeed, I think 'land ownership' is a relatively new concept, thus the idea that you paid millions for land that's slipping into or being covered by the sea is a might unsettling to the sorts of people who buy sea-side property without realizing that their investment is, shall we say, somewhat temporary.

Ayep. But still, I concur that we should make realistic decisions rather than run around screaming. Then there's the whole "What CAN we do, exactly?" US and Europe have gone pretty ecological, by and large. India and China have not and will not. Every ounce of ice could melt and India/China would still be shooting unfiltered coal exhaust straight into the atmo. Best to stay ecological as best we can while maintaining our standard of living, and hope/prod countries that are huge polluters get their act together.

In addition, climate can, does and will change regardless of human activity. I'm far from denying climate change exists, anyone who thinks it doesn't is an idiot. I do question a) how much of it is our fault, and b) how much can we realistically change things? Telling everyone to sleep in a yurt, stop eating anything other than grass and bike to work is unrealistic. Making sure folks aren't needlessly discharging potentially harmful stuff in unnecessarily large amounts when realistic alternatives exist is realistic.

IIRC from High Schrul Chemistry, doesn't water contract when it's heated and expand when cooled/frozen? 

Yes. However, that's applicable only if all the ice was at sea level or below it. Glaciers on land or any ice above sea level melting would be a net gain. 

[Firethorn]

Ayep. But still, I concur that we should make realistic decisions rather than run around screaming.

You hit on it as well.  Just because we're causing ecological change doesn't mean that 'stopping it' is the best solution, the best solution may very well be to simply pay to moderate it.  Build up more sea-walls around cities, abandon some ground to the sea, move back a bit.  Raise Venice using balloons or something. 

Though my 'big toy' thoughts sometimes approaches building a bunch of nuclear plants and electric dredgers to pull enough mass off the ocean floors to create more land and keep the ocean levels down.

[SADShooter]

You hit on it as well.  Just because we're causing ecological change doesn't mean that 'stopping it' is the best solution, the best solution may very well be to simply pay to moderate it.  Build up more sea-walls around cities, abandon some ground to the sea, move back a bit.  Raise Venice using balloons or something. 

Though my 'big toy' thoughts sometimes approaches building a bunch of nuclear plants and electric dredgers to pull enough mass off the ocean floors to create more land and keep the ocean levels down.

Silly human. Don't you realize that a technological solution which does not include suppression of our quality of life will only make Mother Gaia even more angry, and her current hot flashes will seem like the comfort of a heating pad on a sore back?

[dm1333]

IIRC from High Schrul Chemistry, doesn't water contract when it's heated and expand when cooled/frozen? 

Water expands as it warms, contracts as it cools, then expands again as it freezes.