Post by: Scout26 on September 29, 2008, 07:52:43 AM
That really would have boxed in Obama. His options:
1) Cancel the debate (bringing on the "Scared to debate Sarah" beatdown).
2) Go ahead with the debate (Win or lose, Obama still loses. Lose to Sarah = very BAD, Win = Congrats to beat the second string.)
I would have loved to have seen it, as every middle class mom (including Mrs. Scout), would have tuned in.....
Lost opportunity......
Post by: longeyes on September 29, 2008, 08:02:33 AM
He should have opposed the bail-out--for the right reasons. He needs to back the middle-class, back the risk-takers, the productive, the savers and investors.
I think he's confused and conflicted, just as Bush has been. These men are, in their hearts, both liberals, and as liberals can't really deal with an ultra-leftist like Obama.
Post by: Leatherneck on September 29, 2008, 08:10:23 AM
What I think is happening to McCain (and Pallin too, probably) is that they are now enmeshed in the tentacles of the RNC and being fed a steady diet of "what the party thinks." Continued support from said RNC being contingent on their toeing the line of course. I don't much like it.
TC
Post by: wacki on September 29, 2008, 06:31:21 PM
I wouldn't go so far as to call them liberals; I save that term for the odious left wing.
What I think is happening to McCain (and Pallin too, probably) is that they are now enmeshed in the tentacles of the RNC and being fed a steady diet of "what the party thinks." Continued support from said RNC being contingent on their toeing the line of course. I don't much like it.
TC
What I think is happening to McCain (and Pallin too, probably) is that they are now enmeshed in the tentacles of the RNC and being fed a steady diet of "what the party thinks." Continued support from said RNC being contingent on their toeing the line of course. I don't much like it.
TC
McCain is cashed strapped while the RNC is rich. You are probably right.
Post by: Gentleman Ranker on September 30, 2008, 02:21:54 AM
I don't think I've seen so many people so angry and upset about something since 9/11, and if the Dems can make people think Bailout = Republicans = McCain, then it's all over. It won't matter a bit how winsome Palin is.
regards,
GR
Post by: HankB on September 30, 2008, 04:45:33 AM
I think he's confused and conflicted, just as Bush has been. These men are, in their hearts, both liberals, and as liberals can't really deal with an ultra-leftist like Obama.
And maybe McCain doesn't really want to win.
Post by: Manedwolf on September 30, 2008, 05:14:51 AM
He agreed with Obama that FDIC insurance ought to be increased to $250K from $100K. He agreed with Obama on a bunch of other crap.
He said that he wants to see the bill passed, and Americans just don't understand, blah, Main Street, (I am SO SICK of that jingoistic "it's main street, not wall street" talking point...I don't live on main street!)
I am very angry.
Post by: MrRezister on September 30, 2008, 05:48:57 AM
Post by: agricola on September 30, 2008, 06:13:41 AM
McCain could have wrapped up the whole election if he had gone in and helped author a new bill that was fundamentally different from Bush/Paulson. One that didn't lay Wall Street's problems at the feet of the American Taxpayer. If my reading of the reactions so far is accurate, the voters aren't worried at all about who wants more oversight, they simply don't want this tax burden, and who can blame them? McCain should have come up with an alternate bill that either would have shielded the taxpayers entirely, or wouldn't require 7-10 years to see some sort of return. That way he would have cemented his status as a problem solver, whilst standing up against Bush and living up to his Maverick "status". As it stands now, it is obvious that the leadership in the house wants the bill to go through, but those who want to keep their seats in the upcoming election are afraid to have their names associated with it. And the Democrats were waiting for the Republicans to get enough votes to pass the bill so they could spread the blame evenly. I'm glad most Republicans voted against it.
The thing is the Dems know this, and will block anything that can even semi-plausibly be linked to McCain because they know its his single best chance of winning in November. Just look at the conniption and blatant fibs they got into when he postponed his campaign.
Post by: MechAg94 on September 30, 2008, 06:36:17 AM
Post by: agricola on September 30, 2008, 06:53:42 AM
Yeah, but it he had put forth an alternative, he could talk about the difference between him and Obama, not how they agree. Even if it didn't pass, it would still be a good talking point for him and would gain him some support.
True, but any plan based on those principles would be "the McCain plan" and heavily opposed. A better way might be to have House Repubs draft a bill aimed at fixing the crisis, and then back it (if they can do that in your system).
Also, I am not an economics person but is it possible that the crisis might die out once all the banks who have the problems are known / have gone to the wall? There seem to be quite a few banks over here and in your country who are doing very well, and who are getting great deals off the corpses of the dead banks.
Post by: slingshot on September 30, 2008, 07:02:08 AM
Post by: longeyes on September 30, 2008, 07:51:51 AM
If McCain were listening and willing to buck the status quo, he would have opposed the bail-out bill and he would never have proposed the McCain-Kennedy amnesty bill.
Post by: MechAg94 on September 30, 2008, 10:50:30 AM
True, but any plan based on those principles would be "the McCain plan" and heavily opposed. A better way might be to have House Repubs draft a bill aimed at fixing the crisis, and then back it (if they can do that in your system).
He could do it either way. I think if he had done that, he would have gained support. I think voters are sick of politicians trying to do "something" instead of trying to do what is "right". I think it would poll well with voters if someone would just say "to hell with uniting and bipartisanship, lets do what is right for the country first. If others can't unite behind that, I don't want them on my side."I imagine part of the problem with some in D.C. is they have no principles so the phrase "what is right" means little to them.
Post by: seeker_two on September 30, 2008, 11:16:38 AM
http://www.gazetteonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080930/NEWS/809309991/1006/news
Quote
McCain urges Treasury to take further actions
DES MOINES With Congress stalled on a bailout plan, Republican nominee John McCain urged President Bush on Tuesday to direct the Treasury Department to use powers already on the books to increase insurance of bank deposits and buy troubled mortgages.
"The administration can take these actions with the stroke of the pen to help alleviate the crisis gripping our economy," McCain said. "I urge them to do so."
He also called for the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. to increase the deposit insurance cap to $250,000, more than double the current level. The move would seek to assure nervous savers that their money is safe from a bank failure.
"We cannot allow a crisis in our financial system to become a crisis in confidence," McCain said.
McCain addressed the financial turmoil as he opened an economic roundtable discussion with business leaders at a north Des Moines concrete form business. He said he spoke with Bush earlier Tuesday and urged the president to take action.
He acknowledged the politics of an approaching election could complicate efforts to deal with the nation's economic problems.
"I know that many of the solutions to this problem may be unpopular, but the dire consequences of inaction will be far more damaging to the economic security of American families and the fault will be ours," McCain said.
He argued that the Treasury Department has already used a special fund to back money market accounts, and he urged that its use be broadened.
"I encourage it to use this fund as creatively as possible to provide backstops for accounts across our financial system to maintain confidence on the part of savers and investors," said McCain.
In addition, McCain said a housing bill approved in Congress gives Treasury the authority to purchase up to $1 trillion in mortgages, and the agency should do so.
"Housing and mortgages are at the root of this crisis," McCain said. "I encourage Treasury to take action to shore up mortgage values."
A day after Congress rejected a $700 billion bailout package Bush had supported, McCain said the size of the problem demands immediate action.
"We are in the greatest financial crisis of our lifetime," said McCain. "Congressional inaction has put every American and the entire economy at the gravest risk."
McCain also called for Democrats and Republicans to work together.
"I am disappointed at the lack of resolve and bipartisan good will among members of both parties to fix the problem," said McCain. "Bipartisanship is a tough thing, never more so when you're trying to take necessary but publicly unpopular actions. But inaction is not an option."
McCain warned that the credit market is beginning to dry up for businesses, those seeking to buy a home and students looking to finance an education.
"Businesses all over the country cannot borrow to finance their own operations and pay their bills and if we do nothing many may fail," said McCain. "When financing dries up, students can't get loans."
The bailout package has proven to be a thorn in McCain's side. He said he was suspending his campaign last week to return to Washington and hammer out a compromise, and when passage looked likely McCain took credit for his role in finding a solution.
Now that the agreement has fallen apart, McCain said he'd remain involved.
"I call on everyone in Washington to come together in a bipartisan way to address this crisis," McCain said. "I will continue to do whatever I can to aid in a constructive answer to the challenge before us."
DES MOINES With Congress stalled on a bailout plan, Republican nominee John McCain urged President Bush on Tuesday to direct the Treasury Department to use powers already on the books to increase insurance of bank deposits and buy troubled mortgages.
"The administration can take these actions with the stroke of the pen to help alleviate the crisis gripping our economy," McCain said. "I urge them to do so."
He also called for the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. to increase the deposit insurance cap to $250,000, more than double the current level. The move would seek to assure nervous savers that their money is safe from a bank failure.
"We cannot allow a crisis in our financial system to become a crisis in confidence," McCain said.
McCain addressed the financial turmoil as he opened an economic roundtable discussion with business leaders at a north Des Moines concrete form business. He said he spoke with Bush earlier Tuesday and urged the president to take action.
He acknowledged the politics of an approaching election could complicate efforts to deal with the nation's economic problems.
"I know that many of the solutions to this problem may be unpopular, but the dire consequences of inaction will be far more damaging to the economic security of American families and the fault will be ours," McCain said.
He argued that the Treasury Department has already used a special fund to back money market accounts, and he urged that its use be broadened.
"I encourage it to use this fund as creatively as possible to provide backstops for accounts across our financial system to maintain confidence on the part of savers and investors," said McCain.
In addition, McCain said a housing bill approved in Congress gives Treasury the authority to purchase up to $1 trillion in mortgages, and the agency should do so.
"Housing and mortgages are at the root of this crisis," McCain said. "I encourage Treasury to take action to shore up mortgage values."
A day after Congress rejected a $700 billion bailout package Bush had supported, McCain said the size of the problem demands immediate action.
"We are in the greatest financial crisis of our lifetime," said McCain. "Congressional inaction has put every American and the entire economy at the gravest risk."
McCain also called for Democrats and Republicans to work together.
"I am disappointed at the lack of resolve and bipartisan good will among members of both parties to fix the problem," said McCain. "Bipartisanship is a tough thing, never more so when you're trying to take necessary but publicly unpopular actions. But inaction is not an option."
McCain warned that the credit market is beginning to dry up for businesses, those seeking to buy a home and students looking to finance an education.
"Businesses all over the country cannot borrow to finance their own operations and pay their bills and if we do nothing many may fail," said McCain. "When financing dries up, students can't get loans."
The bailout package has proven to be a thorn in McCain's side. He said he was suspending his campaign last week to return to Washington and hammer out a compromise, and when passage looked likely McCain took credit for his role in finding a solution.
Now that the agreement has fallen apart, McCain said he'd remain involved.
"I call on everyone in Washington to come together in a bipartisan way to address this crisis," McCain said. "I will continue to do whatever I can to aid in a constructive answer to the challenge before us."
Not only is he calling on Bush to do an end-run around Congressional opposition (most of which is his own party), he's slamming those in his party who oppose this bad bill....not a way to win over your voters....
...guess the Palin pick was just a fluke...
Post by: agricola on September 30, 2008, 01:15:14 PM
McCain's handling of the bailout as a way to sink his own ship...
I disagree - after the savaging he got for saying that the fundamentals of the US economy are sound (which they are), and with the President, the Media and parts of Congress talking this up as the Great Depression II, for him to say something else would take extraordinary political bravery, especially when it would almost certainly be spun (and "evidenced" by some random bank failure) as McCain-of-the-Seven-Houses being out of touch, stupid etc etc. That said, the doommongering seems to not have penetrated the American political psyche at all, so perhaps it wouldnt be that brave...
In fact the more I think about it he should restate his position on the economy, and explain that - while some people will feel pain through foreclosures and negative equity - more (probably far more) people will benefit because houses will be far more affordable now, and point out that a lot of banks are actually doing rather well right now.
Perhaps he should also resurrect his 9/11 inquiry-style commission into exactly how the whole mess happened, in order to focus criticism where it is deserved.
Post by: longeyes on September 30, 2008, 02:13:40 PM
Post by: longeyes on September 30, 2008, 03:47:40 PM
Would Teddy Roosevelt have supported this bail-out and trumpeted "bi-partisanship?"
Post by: The Annoyed Man on September 30, 2008, 04:52:28 PM
Quote
It's been said that Americans are faced with a choice between the stupid party and the evil party . . . and that once in a while, the two parties get togetherand they do something that is both stupid and eviland this is called "bipartisanship." Thomas Woods, Jr.
Post by: seeker_two on October 01, 2008, 01:38:26 AM
At bottom there are inescapable moral issues at play that everyone wants to run away from. Adam Smith knew over two hundred years that you can't separate economics from morality; we seem to have forgotten that.
Well said....
Post by: grampster on October 01, 2008, 05:37:03 AM
He said he'd do that...loosely quoted--"I'll expose them and name names. I'll make them famous." Not so far John, and you've had multiple opportunities.
McCain has had so many opportunities to bury Obama that it borders on a Monte Python movie. I am perversely reminded of the scene in The Holy Grail when the two knights are fighting and the one keeps getting limbs chopped off and fails to admit he is harmed in any way.
Even though I disagree with much of McCain's notions, at least I had thought him to be a man of principals for which he'd stand up. Since the convention, other than choosing Palin, he has shown himself to lack the qualities that would make him a leader.
As much as I hate to say it, Obama has leadership qualities. The problem is that he'll lead us in totally the wrong direction.
Post by: longeyes on October 01, 2008, 06:36:51 AM
I want to believe in McCain, but he doesn't make it easy. I predict he will make nothing of the VP moderator flap; he will just go along, "nicely."
I keep waiting for Teddy Roosevelt to come back. I guess I'll be waiting a long time.
Post by: grampster on October 01, 2008, 11:15:14 AM
Post by: MechAg94 on October 01, 2008, 12:34:02 PM
It is sad these days that people hear a guy that sounds good and mistake that for intelligence, wisdom, and leadership.
Now, I agree with others that McCain has missed or is missing a golden opportunity. I agree that bipartisanship is something that I think only the media likes these days.
Post by: Monkeyleg on October 01, 2008, 01:17:07 PM
Post by: grampster on October 01, 2008, 01:28:38 PM
Since most of American politics is controlled by emotion rather than reason, Great whoratory sways the masses and the minions. That is what I meant by what I said about Barry.
Post by: Monkeyleg on October 01, 2008, 01:53:59 PM
Post by: Balog on October 01, 2008, 02:07:54 PM
Post by: agricola on October 01, 2008, 02:14:46 PM
Rasmussen now has Obama ahead by 7 points. I don't recall an election where that kind of lead was reversed in the final four weeks. Does anyone recall such a scenario?
Yes. During the 1992 General Election, as late as April 1, Labour had a lead (between 4 and 7%) over John Major's Tory Party and was widely expected to win in the midst of economic turmoil, an unpopular former leader (Thatcher having been removed 18 months before) and having the advantage of "a charismatic" Leader of the Opposition. On April 1, Labour held a widely-derided "American-style" campaign rally in Sheffield, featuring an especially demented Neil Kinnock shouting "We're alright! We're alright".
The lead on April 2nd was 2%.
The Tories won with a majority of 21 MPs.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/election97/background/pastelec/92keyiss.htm
Post by: TommyGunn on October 01, 2008, 02:18:32 PM
Rasmussen now has Obama ahead by 7 points. I don't recall an election where that kind of lead was reversed in the final four weeks. Does anyone recall such a scenario?
Rasmussen isn't the only poll. Others have it more close. I forget which one, but there was one that (today) had McCain ahead by one point.
Lots of things can happen in 5 weeks.
I'm not even sure I trust these day-to-day tracking polls.
Zogby was on the record claiming McCain would win, and that wasn't very long ago.
IMHO, it's too close to call.
Post by: Monkeyleg on October 01, 2008, 07:02:40 PM
Obama has been even or ahead for months in every poll, and even in analyses of polls (polls of polls).
McCain needs a hat trick, and quickly.
Balog, I've read that 6% of those who say they're voting for Obama won't do so at the voting booth because of racism. Don't know if that's true or not, but almost everyone in my neighborhood is a racist Democrat who's not voting for McCain.
As for the youth vote, it was overwhelming here in Wisconsin in 2006, and decided many races in many districts.
Post by: longeyes on October 02, 2008, 07:03:02 AM
Now he's yammering about how "life isn't fair." I get it: It is written. This is from a guy who, other than his POW experience, has pretty much had life his way for most of his 72 years. Quit yer whinin', Senator, and show some fire.
McCain should have realized what he was up against with the media and planned his strategy accordingly. He doesn't seem to know what he is selling and whom he's selling it to.
What isn't fair is that good conservatives are stuck with fools.
Post by: TommyGunn on October 02, 2008, 07:42:29 AM
Rasmussen has had the best record over the last several years.
Obama has been even or ahead for months in every poll, and even in analyses of polls (polls of polls).
McCain needs a hat trick, and quickly.
Obama has been even or ahead for months in every poll, and even in analyses of polls (polls of polls).
McCain needs a hat trick, and quickly.
Zogby, who also has a pretty good record, doesn't seem to agree with Rasmussen.
While I agree that we're in a close race (well, except for Rasmussen ...) McCain does need to do something to blunt Obama's apparant momentum.
The only poll that matters is the one in the voting booth.
Polls have been wrong before, political fortunes swing with the wind. How many people who respond to these polls are actually going to vote?
As much as I tend to think this country needs an Obama administration to whack some good sense into the minds of many in the electorate, an Obama administration would preside over a major economic meltdown and if you think Dubya handled the war bad, you ain't seen nuttin' yet. It would be years of pain.
Do the people really deserve that kind of punishment?
I'd rather not see it myself.
But I am not going to look at day-to-day tracking polls and stroke out because McCain isn't up by 98 points, fer krissake ......
Post by: seeker_two on October 02, 2008, 07:43:23 AM
1. He's not Obama.
2. Sarah Palin.
3. He may catch a cold.
4. Sarah Palin.
5. His age and health might keep him from completing his first term, much less run for a second.
6. Sarah Palin.
7. John Hinkley is due for another release hearing in the next couple of years.
8. Sarah Palin.
9.
I'm out....anyone have more to add?....
Post by: Manedwolf on October 02, 2008, 07:46:29 AM
Right now the only reasons to vote for McCain are:
1. He's not Obama.
2. Sarah Palin.
3. He may catch a cold.
4. Sarah Palin.
5. His age and health might keep him from completing his first term, much less run for a second.
6. Sarah Palin.
7. John Hinkley is due for another release hearing in the next couple of years.
8. Sarah Palin.
9. I'm out....anyone have more to add?....
1. He's not Obama.
2. Sarah Palin.
3. He may catch a cold.
4. Sarah Palin.
5. His age and health might keep him from completing his first term, much less run for a second.
6. Sarah Palin.
7. John Hinkley is due for another release hearing in the next couple of years.
8. Sarah Palin.
9.
I'm out....anyone have more to add?....He might not screw up with guns, Obama will definitely want to take them.
Post by: seeker_two on October 02, 2008, 07:57:24 AM
Right now the only reasons to vote for McCain are:
1. He's not Obama.
2. Sarah Palin.
3. He may catch a cold.
4. Sarah Palin.
5. His age and health might keep him from completing his first term, much less run for a second.
6. Sarah Palin.
7. John Hinkley is due for another release hearing in the next couple of years.
8. Sarah Palin.
9. I'm out....anyone have more to add?....
1. He's not Obama.
2. Sarah Palin.
3. He may catch a cold.
4. Sarah Palin.
5. His age and health might keep him from completing his first term, much less run for a second.
6. Sarah Palin.
7. John Hinkley is due for another release hearing in the next couple of years.
8. Sarah Palin.
9.
I'm out....anyone have more to add?....He might not screw up with guns, Obama will definitely want to take them.
McCain may not actively go after them like Obama, but he'll sell us out to the anti's to get what he wants....Remember McCain-Feingold?....
Post by: Manedwolf on October 02, 2008, 07:59:14 AM
Right now the only reasons to vote for McCain are:
1. He's not Obama.
2. Sarah Palin.
3. He may catch a cold.
4. Sarah Palin.
5. His age and health might keep him from completing his first term, much less run for a second.
6. Sarah Palin.
7. John Hinkley is due for another release hearing in the next couple of years.
8. Sarah Palin.
9. I'm out....anyone have more to add?....
1. He's not Obama.
2. Sarah Palin.
3. He may catch a cold.
4. Sarah Palin.
5. His age and health might keep him from completing his first term, much less run for a second.
6. Sarah Palin.
7. John Hinkley is due for another release hearing in the next couple of years.
8. Sarah Palin.
9.
I'm out....anyone have more to add?....He might not screw up with guns, Obama will definitely want to take them.
McCain may not actively go after them like Obama, but he'll sell us out to the anti's to get what he wants....Remember McCain-Feingold?....
Remember Chicago? Take it national. THAT is what Obama would do.
Post by: The Annoyed Man on October 02, 2008, 11:42:13 AM
Please, don't discuss that here, though.
Just . . . be thinking about it.
Post by: Monkeyleg on October 02, 2008, 12:53:59 PM
Quote
I think it might be just about time for folks to be thinking about what they'd do if Obama comes to get those guns.
Having been one of many people on this forum who have worked with RKBA volunteers to rally gun owners on various issues, I think I can safely say that nearly all gun owners will just fold.
Post by: longeyes on October 02, 2008, 01:07:27 PM
The American people are really that hypnotized?
The point is, the sleep of reason and the slumber of pleasure have already taken place. The events that are coming will wake a lot of the sheep from their long winter's nap. It is one thing to die of too much pleasure, another thing to realize you are looking at a world of hurt for an indefinite period.
I wouldn't place any bets on what's ahead.