Conversation on WWII movies

[Perd Hapley]

https://ricochet.com/452328/why-i-hate-saving-private-ryan/

Mostly about Saving Private Ryan, Band of Brothers - stuff you people like. 

[BlueStarLizzard]

meh. Man has glorified war since they first started to band together in groups and then go hit each other with sticks.

Otherwise, no one would go do it.

(note: This is not a statement on the morality of war, merely an observation on the story telling of war)

[Fly320s]

meh. Man has glorified war since they first started to band together in groups and then go hit each other with sticks.

Otherwise, no one would go do it.

(note: This is not a statement on the morality of war, merely an observation on the story telling of war)

That, plus hollywood makes movies to make money, not to be historically accurate.

[BlueStarLizzard]

That, plus hollywood makes movies to make money, not to be historically accurate.

Well, and when it comes to reality verses the plot/story, the plot/story is going to win. And in all honesty, it should. As much as we want some reality, the bottom line is the story. If the story isn't good and well told, then all the reality in the world isn't going to save it.

[Perd Hapley]

I don't think the article or comments were complaining that movies glorified war. Or maybe I just don't remember seeing that part.

Edit: OK, I see what you're talking about. I don't think Kluge is complaining that movies glorify war. He's actually saying that our focus is on the wrong thing. We have begun to make heroes of the people who died, rather than those who killed. Honoring sacrifice above victory.

Also, one of the points brought up in the article is that Saving Private Ryan is lauded for its realism, thus the complaints about its very unrealistic plot points.

[T.O.M.]

I had an opportunity to spend some time talking to WWII vets at an event our Scout troop helped with.  One, a 101st vet, talked to me a bit about the movie.  He talked about private Ryan going to the cemetary,  and asking his wife if he was a good man.  The vet told me he knew that feeling.  Buddies had fought and died, and he went home, and he often felt that he needed to be a good man to live up to their sacrifices.  That's realistic enough for me.

[BlueStarLizzard]

I don't think the article or comments were complaining that movies glorified war. Or maybe I just don't remember seeing that part.

Edit: OK, I see what you're talking about. I don't think Kluge is complaining that movies glorify war. He's actually saying that our focus is on the wrong thing. We have begun to make heroes of the people who died, rather than those who killed. Honoring sacrifice above victory.

Also, one of the points brought up in the article is that Saving Private Ryan is lauded for its realism, thus the complaints about its very unrealistic plot points.

I don't think they honor sacrifice over victory, but honoring sacrifice is a part of glorifying war in general. You have to keep in mind my perspective, which includes the idea that, in many ancient warrior cultures, preserving your name was more important that preserving your life, and a good way to do that in times past was to die a war hero. This is not a new thing in the depiction of war. Hell, the vikings centered a good part of their religion on dying in battle.
In fact, most depictions of war minimize the killing of others and focus on the more idealistic heroic ideals, like self sacrifice for the sake of ones fellow soldiers. I would say that the opposite is actually true in modern war stories, which actually does seem to spend more time on even the "good" guys killing than anything in the past.

[Perd Hapley]

You have to keep in mind my perspective...

That must be the problem. The people on that website don't know who you are. 


I thought the realism aspect was more the focus, anyway. I didn't just post that link for the article, but equally for the comments. Seemed like a discussion folks would be interested in. I haven't seen most of the movies they're talking about.

[TommyGunn]

I thought the article made a lot of good points about the "realism" of the film.   
In many ways I thought it was realistic in how it portrayed the violence of war,  but I had never given much thought to the machine gun bunker they found out in the middle of "nowhere" and that it wouldn't make much sense to have a MG bunker protecting nothing, and with no supporting cross-fire.  Or the way the squad handled it being wrong.
OTOH, while I agree sending the squad off on a mission to "save one guy" would not have been done, I thought that was simply the "fiction" part of the movie.  I never thought it was supposed to be a true event.  I regarded it as historical fiction, like the Cameron film  TITANIC, it took a real event, inserted fictional characters and events and thus one has a film.   

The idea we have come to celebrate the dead of was over the heroes has some merit.  As General Patton said, "you don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other **** die for his country."  That was true in WW2 and it remains true today, ugly as it is. 

[Scout26]

The film is loosely based on the Niland Brothers.  Two had been killed in Action on 6 and 7 Jun 44, and a third one was thought to have been killed when his B-25 Mitchell bomber was shot down in Burma (he actually parachuted out safely, but was captured by the Japanese).

"Fritz" Niland (H company 2/501 PIR, 101st A/B Div) actually DID wander over to the 82nd to visit his brother Bob.  When it was discovered that all his other brothers were (presumed) to have been KIA, he was shipped back to the states to a non-combat job. (And flagged as "Non-Deployable".)

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niland_brothers

So apparently there was some "Wandering Around" in Normandy  after D-Day.  Especially among the Airborne troops (because they had been widely scattered). 

And yes, the Germans might have setup the Machine bunker in front of the Radar Station.  And yes, there were probably several more nearby (unmanned), and those Germans in the bunker were probably happy as hell, that no one had ordered them to the beaches.  (Or if  he had, was either being too dead or too busy to remember a couple of clown he had tasked with digging bunker(s) around radar installation that had gotten the *expletive deleted*it bombed out it. 

But I do agree that IF (and that's a big IF) CPT Miller had assaulted and taken the bunker, that no prisoners would have taken.  That's just part of the nature of taking out a MG nest or bunker.  (Grenades are bad ju-ju in enclosed spaces.) 

And yes, even I when watching the movie had qualms with bunker scene; 1) It's not part of your mission,  2)  Why is the medic part of the assault? 3) Why not just bypass the strong point.  The Germans failed to remove their "calling card" (the dead American soldiers), so they would still be there when the next batch of Americans arrived.  They would see the same thing and perhaps have more folks to, 4) PROPERLY ASSAULT the bunker, like from behind. After doing a bit more reconnaissance, so see if they are stand-alone or part of a larger system.   It's not like we needed to punch a hole in the German defensive network and this is the best place to do it.     

Along with Upham not doing anything when the former prisoner was stabbing his buddy in the chest.   I found that hard to believe.

And yes, shortly after D-Day, the Rangers were relieved of front line duties be reserve forces.  Used where needed to help hold the line(s) especially at night. 

[TommyGunn]

   Forgot the thing about the radar station being there..... yeah, that WOULD be a good place to defend ....

[MechAg94]

It always seemed to me there were likely a dozen better ways to knock out that machine gun nest including just having your sniper shoot them. 

I recall reading that the Germans built bunkers and defensive works all over the place in France.  Patton's comment was they wasted a lot of resources on defensive works that were easily flanked or didn't slow down his army at all. 

[Scout26]

And we honor the dead and wounded for the simple reason they DID NOT come back (whole).   They are forever 18,19, or 20 years old (or however old they were when they were killed).   And we mourn would they might have been and done with their lives.