Author Topic: Honduras: Free market city-states?  (Read 10994 times)

AZRedhawk44

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Honduras: Free market city-states?
« on: September 06, 2012, 12:56:26 PM »
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/L/LT_HONDURAS_PRIVATE_CITIES?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-09-05-22-36-19

Interesting. 

Honduras is selling land to companies to build 3 cities.  They will be private cities, exempt from Honduras law, making their own law and capable of forming international agreements of their own.  They will have their own police force, judiciary, city council, etc.

Part of me screams "ROBOCOP!" but in other ways I see it as a land-based experiment similar to a Sea Stedding.

I wish them luck, but won't be someone to move there as an early adopter.

I would expect the lack of democratic principles to foster greater respect for private property, but at the same time I would expect a lack of impartiality on the part of police and judiciary roles, not so much in regards to minor crime but very much in regards to freedom of expression, tax, or human rights issues.
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SADShooter

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Re: Honduras: Free market city-states?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2012, 01:20:33 PM »
Reminiscent of Pournelle/Niven's Oath of Fealty. I see more challenges in an us v. them, haves/have nots friction with the traditional polity over perceived inequities (taxes, resources, technology, etc.).
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MillCreek

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Re: Honduras: Free market city-states?
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2012, 01:23:32 PM »
I was just thinking of Oath of Fealty and Todos Santos.  But if they can emulate the economic free zone of Dubai and have a First World legal and medical system, it would be pretty intriguing.  You would probably need to build a wall around the city, though.
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longeyes

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Re: Honduras: Free market city-states?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2012, 02:04:35 PM »
If they are profitable you can bet that the Honduran government will demand a cut.
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Re: Honduras: Free market city-states?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2012, 05:40:11 PM »
I was thinking more Hong Kong before the handover to the Chinese.
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Honduras: Free market city-states?
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2012, 08:02:11 PM »
If they are profitable you can bet that the Honduran government will demand a cut.

Or just nationalize the entire city.

Waitone

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Re: Honduras: Free market city-states?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2012, 08:25:38 AM »
Neo-feudalism on display.
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Re: Honduras: Free market city-states?
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2012, 09:08:20 AM »

I'm in the "watch and see what happens" category.
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Re: Honduras: Free market city-states?
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2012, 09:49:55 AM »
Yup! I like experiments in capitalistic freedom.
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HankB

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Re: Honduras: Free market city-states?
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2012, 10:01:19 AM »
Hmmm . . . if one of the cities is organized by some major drug lords, things could become interesting.  [popcorn]

If one of the cities decides the residents are not free to leave . . . doubly interesting.  [popcorn]
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Re: Honduras: Free market city-states?
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2012, 10:29:32 AM »
Or just nationalize the entire city.
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mtnbkr

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Re: Honduras: Free market city-states?
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2012, 10:30:28 AM »
Hmmm . . . if one of the cities is organized by some major drug lords, things could become interesting.  [popcorn]

If one of the cities decides the residents are not free to leave . . . doubly interesting.  [popcorn]

Just add Judges and you'll have a dystopian sci-fi movie.  Where's ma-ma when you need her?

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Re: Honduras: Free market city-states?
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2012, 10:46:54 AM »
"I am leaving it as I found it. Take over. It's yours." >:D

Actually I was thinking of the Peoples State of Mexico's treatment of Francisco d'Anconia more than that of Ellis Wyatt. But glad to see I wasn't the only person thinking along the same vein.

As I recall Venezuela stole, err sorry, nationalized 11 U.S. owned (Helmerich and Payne) oil rigs when the company turned off the spigot when the state oil company fell behind on it's bills (to the tune of $114 Million). They're still mired in their lawsuit against Venezuela to get their stuff back. Personally, I think they should have capped the wells and scuttled the platforms on the way out.

brimic

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Re: Honduras: Free market city-states?
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2012, 10:49:26 AM »
Quote
As I recall Venezuela stole, err sorry, nationalized 11 U.S. owned (Helmerich and Payne) oil rigs when the company turned off the spigot when the state oil company fell behind on it's bills (to the tune of $114 Million). They're still mired in their lawsuit against Venezuela to get their stuff back. Personally, I think they should have capped the wells and scuttled the platforms on the way out.

I thought the same thing- or better yet, light them on fire on the way out.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Honduras: Free market city-states?
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2012, 10:51:00 AM »


As I recall Venezuela stole, err sorry, nationalized 11 U.S. owned (Helmerich and Payne) oil rigs when the company turned off the spigot when the state oil company fell behind on it's bills (to the tune of $114 Million). They're still mired in their lawsuit against Venezuela to get their stuff back. Personally, I think they should have capped the wells and scuttled the platforms on the way out.

I'm good with calling that an act of war, personally.

Should have sent some destroyers and subs to sink any Venezualan ships that came near the rigs.

"Nationalizing" something that doesn't even fly your flag is theft from another country.
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longeyes

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Re: Honduras: Free market city-states?
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2012, 11:22:53 AM »
It's nice of The State to "permit" enterprise zones, isn't it?  So charitable.  Of course they are desperate and need revenues.  But the real power remains where it was.
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Re: Honduras: Free market city-states?
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2012, 11:53:57 AM »
It's nice of The State to "permit" enterprise zones, isn't it?  So charitable.  Of course they are desperate and need revenues.  But the real power remains where it was.
That's why the cities ought to procure nuclear weapons the first thing they do :laugh:.
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Re: Honduras: Free market city-states?
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2012, 12:30:16 PM »
That's why the cities ought to procure nuclear weapons the first thing they do :laugh:.


Or perhaps pre-sight all the major infrastructure and buildings for demolition charges?  Nah, the nukes sound funner. Convert a few AIR-2 Genie's to surface-to-surface fire mode and mount them on the tallest building. Nothing quite says "get off my lawn!" like a 1.5KT rocket propelled nuke.

AJ Dual

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Re: Honduras: Free market city-states?
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2012, 01:45:48 PM »
Or perhaps pre-sight all the major infrastructure and buildings for demolition charges?  Nah, the nukes sound funner. Convert a few AIR-2 Genie's to surface-to-surface fire mode and mount them on the tallest building. Nothing quite says "get off my lawn!" like a 1.5KT rocket propelled nuke.

Even better, just set up a "Project Pluto" style nuclear ramjet, but instead of making it into a cruise missle/bomber, just put it on a really big pylon so it can spin around like an air-raid siren.

That would be cool.  =D
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just Warren

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Re: Honduras: Free market city-states?
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2012, 05:52:23 PM »
If enough people move there and many just have rifles I think even an untrained bunch of highly-irregulars could hold off the mighty, world-shaking beast that is the Honduran military.

Also, insurance companies may come into play if enough people take out policies against a takeover then whatever companies issued the policies might step in with negotiation and or professional physical adjudicators to mollify the situation.

There is precedent as in the ACW numerous insurance companies banded together to raise forces to keep NYC safe from Confederate actions. 
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Honduras: Free market city-states?
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2012, 06:01:36 PM »
If enough people move there and many just have rifles I think even an untrained bunch of highly-irregulars could hold off the mighty, world-shaking beast that is the Honduran military.

Also, insurance companies may come into play if enough people take out policies against a takeover then whatever companies issued the policies might step in with negotiation and or professional physical adjudicators to mollify the situation.

There is precedent as in the ACW numerous insurance companies banded together to raise forces to keep NYC safe from Confederate actions. 

"If we can't have it, no one can!" *Cue Honduran artillery and rocket barrage.*

MillCreek

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Re: Honduras: Free market city-states?
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2012, 06:13:41 PM »
*Cue Honduran artillery and rocket barrage.*

Would that be a slingshot and a couple of Estes model rockets?  RocketMan can put up a much better barrage!
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Honduras: Free market city-states?
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2012, 06:20:59 PM »
Would that be a slingshot and a couple of Estes model rockets?  RocketMan can put up a much better barrage!

Without breaking out Jane's...... we're talking roughly:

90 - 120mm Mortar
30 - 160mm Mortar
44 - Towed 105mm Howitzer
~8 - Towed 155mm Howitzer

and about a dozen respectable jet fighters/attackers (F-5E/F model Tiger II's).

More than enough to ruin a city-goers day.

just Warren

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Re: Honduras: Free market city-states?
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2012, 06:27:44 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Honduras

20,000 active personnel ain't going to get it done. Even if they have a 1-1 tooth to tail ratio that still leaves only 10,000 combat troops. And the ratio is probably higher than that. At best they might have 5,000 combat arms types. Also listed are 22 light tanks, and 72 armored cars.  

Now imagine a new city that has attracted 100,000 or more people, can you imagine a scenario where such a small force with no heavy armor can push in a take the city against even untrained irregulars? Maybe US troops or Russians or Brits would have a chance but a banana republic military? No.

And they don't quite have the number of tubes it would take to level the place before they got sallied upon and lost them.

Finally, the commanders would likely be quite happy taking payoffs to not do anything. And in the time the city may be big enough to forgo having to pay any protection money.

Another way to protect themselves is to invite many diplomatic missions into the city and give them land (which becomes officially part of the home country) along the likely avenues of attack or shelling. That way, in order to attack the city the Hondurans would have to attack through mini Germany, France, China, Japan, Brazil etc. All of whom could deal out consequences to the Hondurans. Maybe military, maybe economic, maybe diplomatic but none of it good news for the aggressors.  

All this said, Honduras would not be my first choice for such a scheme. Costa Rica or Belize in that region would rate higher, but you take your shot where you can, of course.
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MillCreek

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Re: Honduras: Free market city-states?
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2012, 06:30:01 PM »
Costa Rica is supposed to be nice and I think they already have a sizable American expat community there. 
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.