Author Topic: Cape Cod Wind Farm  (Read 18142 times)

Ben

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Cape Cod Wind Farm
« on: April 28, 2010, 10:00:40 AM »
It will be interesting to see what Obama's decision is here. I see Scott Brown is also against it. This is very similar to the NIMBY constituency where I live in CA. We have 2000-3000 gallons of oil a day naturally seeping out offshore at Coal Oil Point, but no one, Rep or Dem, wants to allow drilling there.

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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/28/interior-department-poised-annouce-decision-controversial-offshore-wind-farm/

Interior Department Poised to Annouce Decision on Controversial Offshore Wind Farm

Interior Secretary Ken Salazar is headed to Boston Wednesday to make an announcement about a controversial wind farm project on Cape Cod that could put the Obama administration at odds with one of the president's biggest supporters: the Kennedy family.

Interior Secretary Ken Salazar is headed to Boston Wednesday to make an announcement about a controversial wind farm project on Cape Cod that could put the Obama administration at odds with one of the president's biggest supporters: the Kennedy family.

Salazar will announce whether the wind farm project off the coast of Cape Cod will see the light of day -- or be gone with the wind. His decision will affect thousands of residents, local businesses and tourists who flock to the seashore paradise each summer -- and likely determine the fate of other such offshore wind farms in states from New York to Michigan.

The Cape Wind project, which would be built five miles off shore, has already created a bipartisan jumble that's pitting environmentalists and lawmakers against each other on both sides of the dispute over the 130 planned turbines -- whose windmill arms would extend over 400 feet above the water.

The offshore wind farm, nine years in the planning, has been blasted by critics like the Kennedys as an "economic boondoggle" that will cost taxpayers billions, hurt commercial fishing and pose a danger to wildlife along a pristine stretch of the Nantucket Sound.

Members of the Kennedy family, including environmental lawyer Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and the late Sen. Ted Kennedy, D-Mass., have been leading opponents of the project, claiming taxpayers already hit with the highest energy costs in the nation will be forced to pay double the price of a land-based wind system.

"It's a boondoggle of the worst kind," Robert Kennedy said in an interview Tuesday with FoxNews.com. "It's going to cost the people of Massachusetts $4 billion over the next 20 years in extra costs."

His uncle contested the proposal up until his death last August, arguing the turbines would spoil the seascape viewed from the waters he once sailed and from the family's six-acre Hyannis Port compound.

"We're the windiest country on earth and we have lots and lots of land" on which to build wind farms, the younger Kennedy said. "Americans don’t want to pay 27 cents a kilowatt hour for energy."

Kennedy's opposition is also shared by Sen. Scott Brown, R-Mass., and Rep. Bill Delahunt, D-Mass., who penned a joint letter last week to Salazar, asking him to bring together all "stakeholders" of the project to reach a consensus decision on the project. An "up or down" decision, they wrote, would result in years of legal battles over its development.

"It is the American people who are providing the public space for this project and it is the American people who are being asked to provide hundreds of millions of dollars in subsidies to the developers," wrote Brown and Delahunt. "The people most affected should have a seat at the table on this project."

Critics, like Delahunt and Brown, say they are not opposed to offshore wind farms but favor building them in deeper waters, like in Germany and Scotland.

But the offshore wind farm, which would be the first in the nation and which would cost an estimated $1 billion to construct, has been heralded by several environmental agencies and six East Coast governors as a breakthrough in alternative energy production.

Massachusetts Gov. Deval Patrick as well as governors in Rhode Island, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, and Delaware each support the project. On Tuesday, Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., told a group of veterans that he would back the wind farm if it is approved by Salazar this week.

The ocean winds along the eastern sea board are among the strongest in North America, proponents say, and the project would be a critical step in developing clean sources of energy and reducing emissions of greenhouse gases.

"It’s the Saudi Arabia of wind," said Amy Kempe, press secretary for Rhode Island Gov. Donald Carcieri. "So long as due diligence is done, something tells me that fish can swim around [turbines] just as cattle can move around them on the plains."

Some environmental groups have also expressed a plethora of concerns over the project -- from effects on marine life and the local economy to potential public safety hazards and risks to air traffic control and a disturbance to sacred tribal land.

Audra Parker, president and CEO of the Alliance to Protect Nantucket Sound, said at least three endangered species inhabit the waters eyed for development, including North Atlantic right whales and two bird species, which could be adversely affected by the building.

Parker also claimed that fishing boats and commuter ferries in the sound -- one of the busiest waterways in the country -- could come dangerously close to the turbines’ spinning blades, particularly during stormy weather conditions.

The Humane Society of the United States is calling for a more adequate review of Cape Wind's impact on the environment, according to Sharon Young, the society's marine issues field director. And the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation, an independent government agency, has also said the department should "not approve the project," claiming that the "indirect and direct effects" of the turbines would "be pervasive, destructive, and, in the instance of seabed construction, permanent."

Officials at Cape Wind, which is headed by Energy Management Co., said the plan has been subjected to nine years of thorough regulatory review on the state and federal level.

"This project has undergone the closest scrutiny and by all measures has shown the benefits outweigh the [negative] impacts," added Robert Keough, spokesman for the Massachusetts Office of Energy and Environment Affairs.

Supporters of the wind farm continually cite a February study conducted by the Charles River Associates, employed by the project's developers, which suggests Cape Wind could save $4.6 billion in energy costs over the next 25 years.

Cape Wind spokesman Mark Rogers said the "visual impact is driving most of the opposition to the project" -- a claim Kennedy and others say they reject.

"Some people like the way wind turbines look, others do not," Rogers said in an interview.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

PTK

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2010, 10:26:26 AM »
Having lived in that area for years, I can say, for a fact, that "NIMBY" is alive and well in Massachusetts.

Nuclear power? NIMBY! Brownouts as a result.
Septic treatment plants? NIMBY! Brown water as a result.
Another school? NIMBY! 35+ people to a classroom as a result.

It just seems to be how people out there think. :(
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sanglant

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2010, 10:32:39 AM »
then maybe it's time we cut the power lines heading in from neighboring states. >:D or just put a federal tax of 50% on power going between states. [popcorn] hey it really is interstate commerce. =D

makattak

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2010, 10:38:13 AM »
Having lived in that area for years, I can say, for a fact, that "NIMBY" is alive and well in Massachusetts.

Nuclear power? NIMBY! Brownouts as a result.
Septic treatment plants? NIMBY! Brown water as a result.
Another school? NIMBY! 35+ people to a classroom as a result.

It just seems to be how people out there think. :(

I agree with all of those problems except the new school. Research indicates that children don't benefit from smaller class sizes until you get to the point of 1 teacher to 2-3 pupils. At that point, they're a private tutor.

Our schools are too small and we have too many teachers. Building another school will only exascerbate that problem.
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brimic

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2010, 10:45:15 AM »
I dunno.

We have a massive wind farm in Wisconsin and the energy produced is much more expensive than that from coal fired plants. The hundreds of turbines were jammed down the throats of rural folk by green liberals.
I think if .gov can force people to live near wind turbines, their noise, and flickering sunlight caused by the blades in podunk WI, then the libtards in Mass should have to live with them too- even if the kennedys can't escape seeing them from their yachts.
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Ben

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2010, 10:55:42 AM »
I agree wind energy isn't always ideal though I think in the right spots in can work. Other than the expense, 5 miles offshore seems like a good spot. I have no idea how they would hold up to weather events.

I just checked the ever-accurate Wiki and saw that MA has one active and one decommissioned nuclear plant. Maybe they should look at that instead of wind power (as should all states).
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2010, 11:01:27 AM »
Quote
I have no idea how they would hold up to weather events regular salt water spray.
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alex_trebek

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2010, 11:05:27 AM »
I dunno.

We have a massive wind farm in Wisconsin and the energy produced is much more expensive than that from coal fired plants. The hundreds of turbines were jammed down the throats of rural folk by green liberals.
I think if .gov can force people to live near wind turbines, their noise, and flickering sunlight caused by the blades in podunk WI, then the libtards in Mass should have to live with them too- even if the kennedys can't escape seeing them from their yachts.


How much more should we be required to sacrifice before it will be enough?

The only time wind mills make sense is in constant wind speed areas. If the wind is too fast the wind mill stops producing electricity.

I want one of these in my back yard, just think the electricity can cost 4 times more than usual.


The blades aren't even moving, what a waste.
I agree wind energy isn't always ideal though I think in the right spots in can work. Other than the expense, 5 miles offshore seems like a good spot. I have no idea how they would hold up to weather events.

I just checked the ever-accurate Wiki and saw that MA has one active and one decommissioned nuclear plant. Maybe they should look at that instead of wind power (as should all states).


I don't have a prob with nuclear. Just remember there isn't a place to put the waste, and it is still non renewable. And it will take at least 20 years to build one. It's not the magic solution by any means.

I think coal gasification is another good option, of course my opinion is biased a little.

Ben

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2010, 11:18:34 AM »
I didn't mean to imply that nuclear was a magical solution. I think over time it's the most efficient solution though.

It's sad that we have to look to China for a good energy model. They are pursuing solar, wind, bio-energy and nuclear. At the same time, they are continuing to use and develop petroleum based energy, to include drilling not far off the US.

We have the problem that we have political entities that just want to stop one kind of energy and replace it with what they consider "good" energy. We need to let the private sector develop renewable energy products while at the same time continuing the use of our current energy products. Abruptly shutting off one energy spigot and turning on another just won't work.
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makattak

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2010, 11:23:47 AM »
My solution.

Build more damn coal plants. I grew up next to one and our town has some of the cleanest water and air in the state of Illinois.

Not only that but we have a MASSIVE abundance of coal. And it's cheap. Stop using expensive materials to accomplish what a cheap black rock will do.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

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alex_trebek

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2010, 11:43:56 AM »
My solution.

Build more damn coal plants. I grew up next to one and our town has some of the cleanest water and air in the state of Illinois.

Not only that but we have a MASSIVE abundance of coal. And it's cheap. Stop using expensive materials to accomplish what a cheap black rock will do.

I grew up 10 miles from the illinois state line, near one of the largest coal gasification plants in the country. The problem with Indiana/Illinois coal is the sulfur content. It's cheaper to bring it in by rail from out west, than it is to remove the sulfur to comply with EPA regulations.

 
I didn't mean to imply that nuclear was a magical solution. I think over time it's the most efficient solution though.

It's sad that we have to look to China for a good energy model. They are pursuing solar, wind, bio-energy and nuclear. At the same time, they are continuing to use and develop petroleum based energy, to include drilling not far off the US.

We have the problem that we have political entities that just want to stop one kind of energy and replace it with what they consider "good" energy. We need to let the private sector develop renewable energy products while at the same time continuing the use of our current energy products. Abruptly shutting off one energy spigot and turning on another just won't work.

I am probably over sensitive to the nuclear thing. I dealt with too many people who wanted a magical easy fix to a problem that is decades in the making. These people often assumed nuclear is the indefinite solution.

If the waste storage facility is finished, I am fine going over 50% nuclear. I don't care if the plant is a mile from me.

What concerns me is public perception that nuclear energy is the magic cure for all of our problems. There will be less support for research into viable indefinite alternatives.

For clarity, I use the term nuclear to refer to the traditional fission power plant. I think the only real solution to the energy problem is fusion. That is trillions of dollars and decades away, if possible at all.

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2010, 12:24:12 PM »
There is a growing number of wind farms in the Pacific NW.  Some of them stretch for miles along the ridges.  Quite majestic to see them, and they are pretty much out in the middle of the sagebrush, so there are few complaints. 
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PTK

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2010, 03:24:05 PM »
I agree wind energy isn't always ideal though I think in the right spots in can work. Other than the expense, 5 miles offshore seems like a good spot. I have no idea how they would hold up to weather events.

I just checked the ever-accurate Wiki and saw that MA has one active and one decommissioned nuclear plant. Maybe they should look at that instead of wind power (as should all states).

Not for producing electricity, primarily. It's in UMass Lowell, and it's a beautiful blue...  =)
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HankB

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2010, 04:32:00 PM »
Stop using expensive materials to accomplish what a cheap black rock will do.
But the people who'd make money from the cheap black rock are the wrong people. The whole point of US energy policy - from offshore drilling bans, to restricted permits for refineries and nuke plants, to proposed cap-and-tax legislation, is to facilitate the transfer of YOUR $$$ into the pockets of the correct people.

Actually providing the energy you want is secondary.
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PTK

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2010, 04:54:35 PM »
But the people who'd make money from the cheap black rock are the wrong people. The whole point of US energy policy - from offshore drilling bans, to restricted permits for refineries and nuke plants, to proposed cap-and-tax legislation, is to facilitate the transfer of YOUR $$$ into the pockets of the correct people.

Actually providing the energy you want is secondary.

Which is why home production of electricity is so frowned upon by many "green" people. Hell, try even suggesting a neighborhood energy-cell to those people, someday. They FREAK out.
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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2010, 05:21:55 PM »
Texas produces more wind-electricity than any other state.  Maybe more than all other states combined.

They are located out in W Texas, what could go wrong?

Well, for starters, they play havoc with the .mil radars our flyboys need to use.  Second they play havoc with the weather radars.  Seeing that most weather systems that hit the populous parts of Texas come through W Texas, that is a serious problem.



As far as nuke waste, reprocess the uranium.  Heck, build breeder reactors and we can produce even more fissile material. I am not too worried about the ancillary materials, other than old reactors.



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He meant nuke weapons, but it applies generators, too.
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S. Williamson

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2010, 05:24:23 PM »
Sometimes I just wish that all residential homes came with 100% solar panel roofs standard.

Would it solve a lot of problems?  Yep.  Would it solve them all?  No, but it's a start.
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Ben

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2010, 05:43:13 PM »
Sometimes I just wish that all residential homes came with 100% solar panel roofs standard.

Hey, that's my idea!

I always figured solar as a good solution (among others, like fuel cells) for residential use. It doesn't make sense to me to use up square miles of open land for solar farms to power cities. Use the footprint that's already there for the house to supplement or fully supply power to that single unit. Save the industrial power for nuke, petroleum, etc.
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PTK

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2010, 05:50:41 PM »
Hey, that's my idea!

I always figured solar as a good solution (among others, like fuel cells) for residential use. It doesn't make sense to me to use up square miles of open land for solar farms to power cities. Use the footprint that's already there for the house to supplement or fully supply power to that single unit. Save the industrial power for nuke, petroleum, etc.

Always struck me as a good idea, as well. When I own my own home someday, I plan to do just that with the roofing. Added benefit is that the solar panels are a hell of a lot more durable than shingles.
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roo_ster

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2010, 05:54:04 PM »
Always struck me as a good idea, as well. When I own my own home someday, I plan to do just that with the roofing. Added benefit is that the solar panels are a hell of a lot more durable than shingles.

That'swhat you say, now.

Go on & price them.  I dare ya.
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PTK

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2010, 05:56:13 PM »
In CO where I was previously, and here in MT, there are incentives/rebates/tax breaks for purchasing solar panels for a home, LARGE incentives. =D

So, I've already priced them. ;)
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"If you really do have cancer "this time", then this is your own fault. Like the little boy who cried wolf."

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2010, 06:13:17 PM »
The moment we start putting solar panels on everybody's roof, the greenie weenies will piss and moan about the hazmat pollution associated with semiconductor manufacturing.

They aren't interested in energy, they're interested in control.  Energy regulation is an excellent way to back-door your way into controlling the economy.

sanglant

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dumb question
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2010, 06:20:27 PM »
what happened to the windmills that could turn there turbines to account for wind speed? ???

The moment we start putting solar panels on everybody's roof, the greenie weenies will piss and moan about the hazmat pollution associated with semiconductor manufacturing.

They aren't interested in energy, they're interested in control.  Energy regulation is an excellent way to back-door your way into controlling the economy.
yep [popcorn]

edit: the system i'm thinking of looked kinda like a helicopter rotor

Tallpine

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2010, 06:37:13 PM »
Solar panels on the roof.  =|

So what do I do when it snows - climb up there and shovel the damn thing  ???
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alex_trebek

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2010, 06:38:49 PM »
IIRC, the production of solar cells is energy intensive. The solar panels that are the best for homes use infrared radiation to assist heating of the house and water. Basically they are dark colored polymer panels with a heat exchanger in them.