Author Topic: i'll be darned  (Read 13314 times)

Tallpine

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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2010, 03:09:29 PM »
A cross seems to have become a universal grave marker in western culture, regardless of religion.

Then there are all those street signs!  :O
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makattak

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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2010, 01:36:05 PM »
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/11/thieves-steal-mojave-desert-memorial-cross-nighttime-heist/
Quote
The 7-foot-tall metal cross that has stood in California's Mojave Desert for 75 years and withstood a hard-fought battle in the Supreme Court was ripped down and stolen Sunday night, according to park officials.

"This is an outrage, akin to desecrating people's graves," said Kelly Shackelford, president of the Liberty Institute, which represents the caretakers of the Mojave Desert War Memorial. "It's a disgraceful attack on the selfless sacrifice of our veterans. We will not rest until this memorial is re-installed."

The National Park Service says someone cut the metal bolts holding the metal-pipe cross to the top of Sunrise Rock and made off with it Sunday night or before dawn on Monday.

Veterans groups are outraged at the theft of the memorial symbol that was erected in 1934 by the Veterans of Foreign Wars to honor World War I dead.

"To think anyone can rationalize the desecration of a war memorial is sickening, and for them to believe they won't be apprehended is very naïve," said VFW National Commander Thomas J. Tradewell Sr. in a written statement.



So, unsurprisingly, this is what happens when people like this lose in the courts. They just break the law to get their way.

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sanglant

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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2010, 01:53:42 PM »
here's one vote for drafting the thieves.

kgbsquirrel

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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2010, 04:36:22 PM »
here's one vote for drafting the thieves.

I could see a judge imposing a sentence much like that one #*% hat in Florida who wore a Medal of Honor he didn't earn. That particular dweeb had to write an apology letter to each of the current living MOH recipients, a couple hundred folk. Imagine having the guys who jacked the memorial write an apology to each current living vet. Last I checked, there was some 2 million of us, that's a lot of writer's cramp right there.

tyme

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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2010, 05:40:33 PM »
Quote
"To think anyone can rationalize the desecration of a war memorial is sickening, and for them to believe they won't be apprehended is very naïve," said VFW National Commander Thomas J. Tradewell Sr. in a written statement.

This is where it breaks down.  The thing Mr. Tradewell thinks was stolen is not the same thing that the thief or thieves stole.

One thought it was a war memorial marker.  The other thought it was (primarily Christian) propaganda inappropriately recognized by congress as a war memorial.
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2010, 05:56:18 PM »
This is where it breaks down.  The thing Mr. Tradewell thinks was stolen is not the same thing that the thief or thieves stole

One thought it was a war memorial marker.  The other thought it was (primarily Christian) propaganda inappropriately recognized by congress as a war memorial.

It doesn't matter that they "thought it was (primarily Christian) propaganda." Congress accepted it as a war memorial 75 years ago and when recently challenged the highest court of our land upheld it. Some jack-hole(s) didn't like the verdict so they went and willfully committed vandalism and theft. The only break down here is the rule of law.

Balog

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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2010, 07:04:12 PM »
This is where it breaks down.  The thing Mr. Tradewell thinks was stolen is not the same thing that the thief or thieves stole.

One thought it was a war memorial marker.  The other thought it was (primarily Christian) propaganda inappropriately recognized by congress as a war memorial.

So because the vandals (presumably) thought it was more of those eeeeeevvvvvviiillll Christians oppressing the poor widdle athiests, they are in the right to desecrate a war memorial? Interesting. And if they were to goto a .mil cemetary and knock over the tombstones marked with crosses, you'd be ok with that as well?

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Leatherneck

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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2010, 07:28:31 PM »
Quote
Some jack-hole(s) didn't like the verdict so they went and willfully committed vandalism and theft.
I'm thinking that pretty soon it will be replaced and will be guarded by a constant watch of cranky old men with guns.

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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2010, 09:01:45 PM »
i think a remote cam and a switch lighting it up with 50k volts would be fun
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2010, 03:38:04 AM »
So because the vandals (presumably) thought it was more of those eeeeeevvvvvviiillll Christians oppressing the poor widdle athiests, they are in the right to desecrate a war memorial? Interesting. And if they were to goto a .mil cemetary and knock over the tombstones marked with crosses, you'd be ok with that as well?



When did merely pointing out a difference in perception become an endorsement of behavior based on that perception?
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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2010, 05:01:37 AM »
Theft is theft, vandalism is vandalism, but Mr. Tradewell is naive in thinking that the heightened moral gravity he attaches to this particular theft (that is, theft/defacing of a war memorial) has any relevance to the crime itself.

Here's a rough but workable analogy, I think.

In ancient times, suppose someone had an amulet they wore that had extreme sentimental value.  Everyone else knew that it had sentimental value.  However, it turns out this amulet was radioactive -- low-level but substantially above the level of background radiation.  Suppose a few people had started to understand radioactivity, and were generally laughed at by the rest (invisible rays that may or may not cause far-future harm?  lol!).  One day someone steals the amulet, igniting fury and outrage by many... and they claim it was stolen to traumatize the owner.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2010, 05:42:12 AM »
Quote
So, unsurprisingly, this is what happens when people like this lose in the courts. They just break the law to get their way.

How do we know the thief is a liberal?

It could have been stolen for metal.

Down here people rip out the metal candle fixtures from people's gravestones for this.

Part of why  I visit my sister's grave every few months.
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2010, 05:44:29 AM »
Theft is theft, vandalism is vandalism, but Mr. Tradewell is naive in thinking that the heightened moral gravity he attaches to this particular theft (that is, theft/defacing of a war memorial) has any relevance to the crime itself.

Here's a rough but workable analogy, I think.

In ancient times, suppose someone had an amulet they wore that had extreme sentimental value.  Everyone else knew that it had sentimental value.  However, it turns out this amulet was radioactive -- low-level but substantially above the level of background radiation.  Suppose a few people had started to understand radioactivity, and were generally laughed at by the rest (invisible rays that may or may not cause far-future harm?  lol!).  One day someone steals the amulet, igniting fury and outrage by many... and they claim it was stolen to traumatize the owner.

That analogy is a fallacy because it's attempting to compare an item that is inherently causing physical harm with another that a person finds distasteful by opinion.

Since this is a constitutional matter, how about this one instead...

The constitution proscribes central banks. Since the money in your wallet is issued by a central bank, and I find it to be "illegal money" even though it has been accepted by our government, am I in the right to steal it from your wallet in the middle of the night or is it still simply theft?

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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2010, 06:12:39 AM »
How do we know the thief is a liberal?

It could have been stolen for metal.


Good point....need to let the investigation run its course.

But, if it is one of the anti-monument types, the punishment should be severe....and doled out before they're taken into LEO custody....
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KD5NRH

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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2010, 06:34:43 AM »
How do we know the thief is a liberal?

It could have been stolen for metal.

Liberal and metal thief are about as mutually exclusive as water and wet.


MicroBalrog

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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2010, 06:38:40 AM »
Liberal and metal thief are about as mutually exclusive as water and wet.


What about my point do you not understand?
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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2010, 07:10:49 AM »
What about my point do you not understand?

Why you won't get a hat to cover it.


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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2010, 07:27:35 AM »
That analogy is a fallacy because it's attempting to compare an item that is inherently causing physical harm with another that a person finds distasteful by opinion.

Maybe, but it doesn't really relate to the point of the analogy, which is that someone in each case is assuming the wrong motive for the crime.  I have seen no allegations anywhere that this memorial was vandalized/stolen simply because it was a WWI memorial.

Quote
The constitution proscribes central banks. Since the money in your wallet is issued by a central bank, and I find it to be "illegal money" even though it has been accepted by our government, am I in the right to steal it from your wallet in the middle of the night or is it still simply theft?

Where did I say it's okay to steal?

If there's a lot of media attention about (unbacked, paper) currency being illegitimate and a desire by lots of people to return to the gold standard, and there's a monument to capitalism far inside some national park with a $20 bill, and that monument is stolen at some point, is it reasonable to assume that the thief stole it to fund his crack addiction, or because he's an anarchist?  Or, perhaps, should we conclude that the thief probably has nothing against currency per se, and no specific need for the $20, but is instead protesting (albeit illegally) the lack of backing of paper money with some commodity?

Lots of things are illegal, but on the scale of annoyances to high crimes, this rates pretty low IMO.  Vandalizing a bona fide WWI memorial without religious adornment, particularly one in a place where people actually visit regularly, would rate a lot higher IMO.

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Contrary to Alito’s apparent fact finding, he notes that the record actually reveals that (1) the cross was illegally erected, (2) it was seen by more rattlesnakes than people, (3) the signs designating it as a war memorial have long disappeared, and (4) it is now viewed by the only folks the record reveals as regularly visiting the cross, folks who congregate at the cross for an Easter mass, as a religious symbol not a war memorial (there is no evidence of Memorial Day gatherings).
( http://volokh.com/2010/04/28/mojave-cross-decision-salazar-v-buono-handed-down/ )

That's hardly the epitome of a legitimate WWI memorial, regardless of what Congress has declared.  And yet people have the audacity to claim that the vandalism somehow reflects on its status as a war memorial rather than its status as a silly government-sanctioned cross in the middle of nowhere, its main claim to fame being that it's used for Easter mass?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 08:31:13 AM by tyme »
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MicroBalrog

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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2010, 07:35:33 AM »
There's such a thing as an 'illegitimate' war memorial?
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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2010, 10:26:19 AM »
A cross seems to have become a universal grave marker in western culture, regardless of religion.

Then there are all those street signs!  :O

Cough.  Uhm.  No?



Whole lotta Federal buildings with religious iconography on them need to get torn down post haste then, lest the poor oppressed irreligious get deterred in their efforts as establishing their religion as the official state religion. And let's get that damned In God We Trust off currency, everyone knows religious beliefs are irrational. And opening Congress and military services with prayer?!?!

I am not a constitutional scholar, but...   My understanding that under the law, you're welcome to slap up any religious icons you wish.  However, you cannot grant preferential treatment.  This isn't "establishment of religion", as most folks spend an inordinate length of time on.  It's the Fourteenth.  Due process and Equal Protection Clauses.

You can have crosses, "In God We Trust", et al.   As much as to your hearts content and you can enact.  Go right on ahead.  Now, the second someone says "We'd like religious icon X of more or less equal nature to be put right alongside already accepted religious icon Y" and they are denied...  Then it starts getting hairy.  Under the constitution, Christianity and Pastafarianism are equal.   And darn well should be.  You may not believe so, and that's well within your rights as well.  But the government cannot grant unequal treatment under the law. 

I get honked off when someone sues to get a religious icon torn down.  I'd be even less pleased if someone allowed "In God We Trust" to be carved into some section of government property and forbid "In FSM We Trust" to be put nearby.  Separation of church and state is an immensely wise idea, because it side steps "treating everyone equal, every time" which is the Constitutional mandate when it comes to this sort of thing.  Notice, I said wise idea, not "Constitutionally mandated" because it is not. 

If you want preferential treatment for any particular religion, that's fine.  Repeal the 14th amendment and you can do so. 

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Balog

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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2010, 11:00:13 AM »
I'm not really seeing your point there Rev. I suppose if Jews had tried to get a Star of David war memorial put up and been denied or something, that'd be relevant. But the situation under discussion has nothing to do with your post.

Quote
Lots of things are illegal, but on the scale of annoyances to high crimes, this rates pretty low IMO.  Vandalizing a bona fide WWI memorial without religious adornment, particularly one in a place where people actually visit regularly, would rate a lot higher IMO.

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kgbsquirrel

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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2010, 11:03:44 AM »
Maybe, but it doesn't really relate to the point of the analogy, which is that someone in each case is assuming the wrong motive for the crime.  I have seen no allegations anywhere that this memorial was vandalized/stolen simply because it was a WWI memorial.

Where did I say it's okay to steal?

If there's a lot of media attention about (unbacked, paper) currency being illegitimate and a desire by lots of people to return to the gold standard, and there's a monument to capitalism far inside some national park with a $20 bill, and that monument is stolen at some point, is it reasonable to assume that the thief stole it to fund his crack addiction, or because he's an anarchist?  Or, perhaps, should we conclude that the thief probably has nothing against currency per se, and no specific need for the $20, but is instead protesting (albeit illegally) the lack of backing of paper money with some commodity?

Lots of things are illegal, but on the scale of annoyances to high crimes, this rates pretty low IMO.  Vandalizing a bona fide WWI memorial without religious adornment, particularly one in a place where people actually visit regularly, would rate a lot higher IMO.
( http://volokh.com/2010/04/28/mojave-cross-decision-salazar-v-buono-handed-down/ )

That's hardly the epitome of a legitimate WWI memorial, regardless of what Congress has declared.  And yet people have the audacity to claim that the vandalism somehow reflects on its status as a war memorial rather than its status as a silly government-sanctioned cross in the middle of nowhere, its main claim to fame being that it's used for Easter mass?

You missed the entire point of both the argument and the alternate analogy and misconstrued them to be putting words in your mouth.

The argument isn't that one crime is less wrong due to a moral opinion held by the person committing it. The argument is that while someone may disagree with some action or occurrence on constitutional grounds, the supreme court made a decision, and (in all probability) those on the losing side of the court decision decided to deal with the matter extrajudicially. In case anybody missed that, the persons didn't like the court's decision so they went and committed a crime.

Just as I can't go take the paper money out of your wallet simply because I think a central bank is illegal under the constitution, these persons can't go cutting down a war memorial because they think the design of it is illegal, especially after Congress repeatedly voted to keep it in place, the supreme court just ruled against them and even more so after the cross and the land it sat upon was transferred into private hands! Whether you personally think they were in any way justified or that Congress was wrong in approving this as a memorial to begin with is also irrelevant. Due process was followed, the Supreme Court was petitioned, a decision was made and a solution found.

Further, using one of the Justices comments about a missing plaque or the current visitation and use of the memorial is also without merit considering all parties were made well aware that this was in fact a war memorial constructed by veterans of the First World War, with the repeated consent of Congress, and was now no longer residing on public land. Trying to claim "well we thought it was just a religious shrine on public property" as a defense after all these facts have not only come out, but been hashed over in the highest court of the land and announced on national media is studiously asinine.

The simple fact of the matter is someone, or multiple someones, vandalized and stole something that was both a war memorial and at that point private property because they disagreed with a court decision. From a logical standpoint no moral opinion will make this action any more or less illegal. From my emotional argument standpoint as a veteran and the Adjutant for my VFW post, I can think of few things more egregiously despicable than the defacement of a symbol of national recognition to the sacrifices of the some 22,477,500 soldiers who bled and died on the allied side in the Great War.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 11:29:46 AM by kgbsquirrel »

Balog

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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2010, 11:13:09 AM »
Piff, everyone knows war memorials mean less when those icky religious folks put their evil oppressive symbols on them.
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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2010, 12:26:32 AM »
You missed the entire point of both the argument and the alternate analogy and misconstrued them to be putting words in your mouth.

The argument isn't that one crime is less wrong due to a moral opinion held by the person committing it. The argument is that while someone may disagree with some action or occurrence on constitutional grounds, the supreme court made a decision, and (in all probability) those on the losing side of the court decision decided to deal with the matter extrajudicially. In case anybody missed that, the persons didn't like the court's decision so they went and committed a crime.

Just as I can't go take the paper money out of your wallet simply because I think a central bank is illegal under the constitution, these persons can't go cutting down a war memorial because they think the design of it is illegal, especially after Congress repeatedly voted to keep it in place, the supreme court just ruled against them and even more so after the cross and the land it sat upon was transferred into private hands! Whether you personally think they were in any way justified or that Congress was wrong in approving this as a memorial to begin with is also irrelevant. Due process was followed, the Supreme Court was petitioned, a decision was made and a solution found.

Further, using one of the Justices comments about a missing plaque or the current visitation and use of the memorial is also without merit considering all parties were made well aware that this was in fact a war memorial constructed by veterans of the First World War, with the repeated consent of Congress, and was now no longer residing on public land. Trying to claim "well we thought it was just a religious shrine on public property" as a defense after all these facts have not only come out, but been hashed over in the highest court of the land and announced on national media is studiously asinine.

The simple fact of the matter is someone, or multiple someones, vandalized and stole something that was both a war memorial and at that point private property because they disagreed with a court decision. From a logical standpoint no moral opinion will make this action any more or less illegal. From my emotional argument standpoint as a veteran and the Adjutant for my VFW post, I can think of few things more egregiously despicable than the defacement of a symbol of national recognition to the sacrifices of the some 22,477,500 soldiers who bled and died on the allied side in the Great War.

blah, blah, blah, RULE OF FRICKIN' LAW, blah blah blah...

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kgbsquirrel

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Re: i'll be darned
« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2010, 04:57:44 AM »
blah, blah, blah, RULE OF FRICKIN' LAW, blah blah blah...

 =D

Excellent summary, you work for Cliff's Notes don't you?  :laugh: