Author Topic: Illegal Alien kids in schools  (Read 17395 times)

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2010, 12:47:29 AM »
if its about political support the reps had the latino vote and have managed to lose it .   it was a choice
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Doggy Daddy

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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2010, 12:49:30 AM »
Sometimes honor and doing the right thing win out... at a cost.

DD
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2010, 01:04:14 AM »
thats funny cause i was a fence sitter about immigration at one point.  and then i heard some stuff from some folks and it made me mad.  but cynic that i am i hada look at their facts and stats.   and i started finding out some funny things.  and as a result i was finding wile i was unsure about immigration i became positive i was never gonna be on the same side with some of the folks on the anti side. no way in heck i could hang with some of those folks. honorably anyway.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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AJ Dual

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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2010, 01:07:51 AM »
Well, I'd be a lot more ok with illegal immigration if it were replacing the existing American underclasses with one who was nominally more willing to work.

Unfortunately, there is the rather inconvenient fact that our existing underclasses have civil rights and whatnot, and we simply can't "be rid of them". So now we have our under-under class, and our new at-least-they-work illegal alien underclass here in the U.S.

Plus, there's the issue that Mexico is willfully using the U.S. as a safety valve for their own institutionalized inequalities. Instead of revolt or reform, people with enough drive to "do something about it" come here instead. Shut off our border, and there will be a "pressure cooker" effect on Mexico. Although I concede the point that what results may not be to our liking, and wind up looking more like a bigger version of Venezuela, and right on our border this time.

And I suspect there are powers-that-be here in the U.S. who think so too, and would rather we be awash in illegals, rather than see some hard-left/Communist/narco-terror junta arise in Mexico to take the current democratic soft-kleptocracy's place.

Any long term SUCCESSFUL resolution to the Mexican/Latino illegal immigration problem will have to contain these three points:

1. Meaningful border and labor enforcement against illegal immigration. Military, walls, patrols, and state and local .gov empowered to help.

2. Economic reform, payroll/FICA tax reform, and entitlement/welfare reform to FORCE America's existing underclass demographics into the labor market that the illegal immigrants are serving.

3. Political, economic, diplomatic and military support/guidance for Mexico for when our closed borders increases their internal domestic pressures to the point they "pop", and what results is some semblance of "Win-win democratic capitalism", rather than their current brand of "Win-lose capitalism" and so they don't devolve into Marxism or worse.
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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2010, 01:15:58 AM »
if its about political support the reps had the latino vote and have managed to lose it .   it was a choice

That's because Republicans generally aren't willing to give illegals free health-care, free education, free housing, and free citizenship just for being here.  Democrats are.  And even if some Republicans are in favor of amnesty and the like, they are still just (D)-Lite.  Democrats excel at emptying the public trough in exchange for a few votes.  That's their plan with illegals, and it's working.  Not to mention conservatives are generally in favor of immigrants, legal or no, truly melding with American culture and wanting to be Americans inside and out.  Liberals however are generally the ones who like to divide everyone into groups, pitting one against the other, and while telling them it's White-America's fault.  This goes hand in hand with illegals who are here to leech money and free services on the public dime, without every really intending to become Americans.

Go to the next La Raza protest/riot in the Southwestern US and ask around if the rioters would have favored McCain/Palin over Obama/Biden.  I don't think it takes a rocket surgeon to guess what the results would be.

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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2010, 01:26:01 AM »
Quote
and as a result i was finding wile i was unsure about immigration i became positive i was never gonna be on the same side with some of the folks on the anti side.

Serious question:  Are you lumping illegal and legal immigration together?  I'm not.  There is a distinct difference between standing in line and going through the process to become a LEGAL immigrant, and sneaking in the back door while others are going about it the correct/legal way.

DD
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for a lead role in a cage?
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2010, 01:38:57 AM »
how many folks can legally come from mexico a year?
and why do they come?



and when i find the some of the folks on the anti side floating so much utter bs it turns me away.  the more so when its swallowed and regurgitated so readily by so many
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Doggy Daddy

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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #57 on: May 09, 2010, 01:45:33 AM »
So, you ARE lumping them together.  Rational discussion of the topic is pointless.

DD
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #58 on: May 09, 2010, 01:48:34 AM »
er no   but probably  is this where you refute with "i don't care "6 times?

or do you not know or want to know the answer?  you need to know the questions before you come up with solutions  and again that assumes folks really want solutions
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Doggy Daddy

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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2010, 01:51:21 AM »
Quote
er no   but probably  is this where you refute with "i don't care "6 times?

A little punctuation please?  Just a clue as to what the hell you're trying to get across...

DD
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Doggy Daddy

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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #60 on: May 09, 2010, 01:55:14 AM »
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is this where you refute with "i don't care "6 times?

And here you refer to an unrelated topic on another forum entirely! http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=418003&page=3 Kind of ironic, since you're now doing what I was pointing out that you were doing there: obfuscating the topic with strawmen, smoke, and distraction.

Same old tactic, same old song.

DD
Would you exchange
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for a lead role in a cage?
-P.F.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #61 on: May 09, 2010, 02:00:08 AM »
So, you ARE lumping them together.    no           Rational discussion of the topic is pointless.    probably
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Doggy Daddy

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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #62 on: May 09, 2010, 02:04:11 AM »
Quote
Rational discussion of the topic is pointless.    probably

C&SD, we have reached agreement!  I'll buy you a drink if you'll buy me one.

DD
Would you exchange
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for a lead role in a cage?
-P.F.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2010, 02:09:23 AM »
mine will have to be pepsi but sure
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Doggy Daddy

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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2010, 02:12:42 AM »
You and them high-falutin' tastes!  I'm settling for Diet Sam's Cola.   =D

DD
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #65 on: May 09, 2010, 02:49:12 AM »
i'm flyin high while i can  diet pepsi is in my future
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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roo_ster

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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #66 on: May 09, 2010, 08:16:56 AM »
and when i find the some of the folks on the anti side floating so much utter bs it turns me away.  the more so when its swallowed and regurgitated so readily by so many

I have posted quite a few arguments & facts.  Many with links to source material.  Do please point out which ones are BS or retract your accusation of dishonesty.
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roo_ster

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #67 on: May 09, 2010, 08:23:37 AM »
i apologize  if you think i was referring to your posts or for the most part any posts here
as a matter of fact there is a link to an article i posted that is about the real costs that i would love your input on  i'll see if i can find it
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #68 on: May 09, 2010, 08:31:41 AM »
here it is

http://redblueamerica.com/truthornot/2008-04-03/do-illegal-immigrants-receive-more-government-benefits-they-pay-taxes-2300
Do illegal immigrants receive more government benefits than they pay in taxes?
Posted April 3rd, 2008 by Joel
The Associated Press

Day laborers, who identified themselves as illegal immigrants looking for work, gather around a potential employer that stopped to hire workers at a street corner where illegal immigrants gather in Dallas.

One of the most common criticisms of illegal immigration is that immigrants pay little or no taxes, yet still receive government services paid for by tax-paying U.S. citizens. This criticism was repeated again recently by Missouri Treasurer Sarah Steelman as she opened her campaign for governor of that state:

    The Republican presented a report to a Senate committee, expounding on the burden that illegal workers place on the state and federal government. Such workers and their employers avoided paying between $242 million and $449 million a year in income and payroll taxes for Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance, she said.

    “So the problem is quite evident,” Steelman said. “It also creates an unfair advantage for employers who are not paying those taxes over companies that do pay the required taxes.”

Steelman, it turned out, misread a study on the topic and overestimated the amount of unpaid taxes. But she asserted that her general claim -- that the hiring of illegal immigrants robs government of taxes. Is it true?

It may depend on whether you take a long-term or short-term view of the topic. In the short term, experts seem to agree, illegal immigrants tend to receive more in benefits than they pay in taxes. The disparity has given rise to a Web site created by the conservative Heritage Foundation: No Free Mustang.

Why is it called that? Robert Rector explains:

    "The average illegal immigrant family receives an average of $30,000 in governmental benefits! Yet they pay only about $9,000 in taxes per year. That creates a $21,000 shortfall that the American taxpayer has to make up. That's like buying each of the illegal immigrant families a brand new Mustang convertible -- each and every year!"

The Center for Immigration Studies, a vocal opponent of illegal immigration, looked at "The High Cost of Cheap Labor"

in 2004 and found that illegal immigrant families tended to receive fewer welfare and Medicaid benefits than other households -- but even then, didn't pay enough in taxes to cover the cost.

    Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.

    In terms of welfare use, receipt of cash assistance programs tends to be very low, while Medicaid use, though significant, is still less than for other households. Only use of food assistance programs is significantly higher than that of the rest of the population. Also, contrary to the perceptions that illegal aliens don't pay payroll taxes, we estimate that more than half of illegals work "on the books." On average, illegal households pay more than $4,200 a year in all forms of federal taxes. Unfortunately, they impose costs of $6,950 per household.

The disparity might be higher, but the Reason Foundation's Shikha Dalmia noted in 2006

that the federal government had long since cracked down on benefits to illegal immigrants.

    The 1996 welfare reform bill disqualified illegal immigrants from nearly all means-tested government programs including food stamps, housing assistance, Medicaid and Medicare-funded hospitalization. The only services that illegals can still get are emergency medical care and K-12 education.

    According to a study by the Urban Institute, the 1996 welfare reform effort dramatically reduced the use of welfare by undocumented immigrant households, exactly as intended.

The exception for K-12 education, though, is a pretty big one -- and it's borne, generally, by state and local governments. Wisconsin is an example, as shown in this report

on a study in March by that state's Policy Research Institute:

    The data show Brown County loses an average of about $9 million a year on immigrants. In other words, immigrants consume more in state and local services than they pay into the system through state and local taxes. The biggest cost burden is education for children, which is the most expensive public service.

On the other hand, the presence of illegal immigrants in the United States has apparently bolstered the finances of Social Security. Many undocumented workers pay into the system, but never retire or receive a dime from the program, as the New York Times reported in 2005:

    As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.

    While it has been evident for years that illegal immigrants pay a variety of taxes, the extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year's surplus.

That continues to be true, according to an April 2 editorial in the Times:

    In the fine print of the 2008 annual report on Social Security, released last week, the program’s trustees noted that growing numbers of “other than legal” workers are expected to bolster the program over the coming decades.

    We’re not talking chump change. According to the report, the taxes paid by other-than-legal immigrants will close 15 percent of the system’s projected long-term deficit. That’s equivalent to raising the payroll tax by 0.3 percentage points, starting today.

And in a 2007 report, the White House Council of Economic Advisers asserted that, over the long haul, immigrants end up paying off:

    The long-run impact of immigration on public budgets is likely to be positive. Projections of future taxes and government spending are subject to uncertainty, but a careful study published by the National Research Council estimated that immigrants and their descendants would contribute about $80,000 more in taxes (in 1996 dollars) than they would receive in public services.

The overall effect, the council said, is a bit of a wash -- and a minor one at that:

    The long-term fiscal approach imparts four main lessons: 1) although subject to uncertainty, it appears that immigration has a slightly positive long-run fiscal impact; 2) skilled immigrants have a more positive impact than others; 3) the positive fiscal impact tends to accrue at the federal level, but net costs tend to be concentrated at the state and local level; and 4) the overall fiscal effect of immigration is not large relative to the volume of total tax revenues – immigration is unlikely to cure or cause significant fiscal imbalances.

As Congress in 2007 debated a bill that would create a "pathway to citizenship" for immigrants already in the United States, the Congressional Budget Office weighed in with a mixed fiscal review of the proposal:

    The immigration bill before Congress would cost the federal government roughly $18 billion over the next decade, largely because of the huge costs of additional border control and law enforcement measures, according to an analysis released yesterday by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office.

    The analysis found that over the next decade, newly legalized immigrants and guest workers would generate $48 billion in additional tax and Social Security revenues, while using about $23 billion worth of tax credits and social services. Thus, the newly legal immigrant population would contribute a net of about $26 billion over the decade, the report said.

    Over the long haul, the bill would be a virtual fiscal wash, costing after 20 years a few billion dollars a year more in enforcement and government assistance than the Treasury would get back in tax revenues from the foreign-born workers, the study said.

So: Immigrants consume far more in government benefits than they pay in taxes. Truth or not?
Truth
Not
 

there is also that fact check link that uses the cis to debunk some common fibs that are tossed about  some of which claim to use the cis as a source. i think they count, rightfully on folk hearing what they wanna hear and not checking facts
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Ben

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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #69 on: May 09, 2010, 11:05:51 AM »

Go to the next La Raza protest/riot in the Southwestern US and ask around if the rioters would have favored McCain/Palin over Obama/Biden.  I don't think it takes a rocket surgeon to guess what the results would be.

Or just watch a sample right here. This is a High School teacher, hired by the government to teach your children. Work safe, blood pressure unsafe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGqPo5ofk0s
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freakazoid

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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #70 on: May 09, 2010, 12:47:18 PM »
Quote
Serious question:  Are you lumping illegal and legal immigration together?  I'm not.  There is a distinct difference between standing in line and going through the process to become a LEGAL immigrant, and sneaking in the back door while others are going about it the correct/legal way.

You could make a correlation with firearms. Some people choose to follow the "law" and get a concealed carry license, some states it doesn't take much to get one while others you have to jump through hoops to get one, while others follow what they believe to be right and carry without one. Should the people that have to jump through hoops to get one be pissed because someone else didn't? What about people who one guns in California even though it is illegal to own them?

The only reason they are "illegal" is because the law says they are. Back during the Jim Crow days a black person would be violating the law for using something that is whites only, it would be "illegal" for them to do it.
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

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roo_ster

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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #71 on: May 09, 2010, 02:34:58 PM »
You could make a correlation with firearms. Some people choose to follow the "law" and get a concealed carry license, some states it doesn't take much to get one while others you have to jump through hoops to get one, while others follow what they believe to be right and carry without one. Should the people that have to jump through hoops to get one be pissed because someone else didn't? What about people who one guns in California even though it is illegal to own them?

The only reason they are "illegal" is because the law says they are. Back during the Jim Crow days a black person would be violating the law for using something that is whites only, it would be "illegal" for them to do it.

Those are two very, very specious analogies.

The heart of Jim Crow was gov't sanctioned racial discrimination against American citizens.  Non-American citizens have no right or standing to claim squat against us.  The legal immigrants are here at our pleasure for our benefit, the illegal aliens are door-crashers and welcome as a case of the clap.  If they want full & complete liberty, American-style, they can go back to their pit of a country and make it so.

The CCW analogy is just bizarre, but I'll attempt to make some sense of it, in the spirit of debate.  Heck, I'll take a stab at it from two angles.

1. CCW from Second Amendment / COTUS
If one claims the right to CCW from the COTUS and, specifically, from the 2nd Amendment (and wishes to analogize form them to non-citizen's liberties & privileges), do know that the COTUS grants the power to Congress to enact laws WRT "naturalization" and restricts non-citizens from many liberties/opportunities.  Non-citizens are called out in several places for treatment different from citizens.  No love there.

2. CCW from innate right of self protection
If one bases the right to CCW/self-protection on something other than the COTUS, say, a natural law God-given right to life, this still fails as an analogy for illegal immigration.  If one reads the Bible, it clearly states that the State is to have some power and that power is granted by God.  Moreover, respect and obedience is due the state.  In the case of America, the ultimate source of power (on Earth) is the citizenry and that citizenry has been loud & clear as to its desires WRT illegal immigration.  Also, the innate right to self-protection does not translate into "innate right to self-protection wherever your self might be on earth."  For instance, if you break into someone's condo, it does not apply when the condo owner decides to draw down on you with a shotgun.  Your innate right to self-protection has limits, one of them relating to time & place.
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roo_ster

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longeyes

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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #72 on: May 10, 2010, 10:22:18 AM »
Quote
thats funny cause i was a fence sitter about immigration at one point.  and then i heard some stuff from some folks and it made me mad.  but cynic that i am i hada look at their facts and stats.   and i started finding out some funny things.  and as a result i was finding wile i was unsure about immigration i became positive i was never gonna be on the same side with some of the folks on the anti side. no way in heck i could hang with some of those folks. honorably anyway.

Facts and stats, huh?  Paid for by whom exactly?

Defending illegal immigration is defending illegality and defending the right of a tyrannical elite to ignore the will of the American people and to impose its own instead.   We are being coerced to subsidize the destruction of American culture and the theft of our own treasure.  That is the heart of the matter here; anything else is bleeding-heartism that ignores the facts.
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freakazoid

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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #73 on: May 10, 2010, 12:24:06 PM »
Quote
Defending illegal immigration is defending illegality

What about defending pot smokers? Which could also be used in my example from above.

Quote
If one bases the right to CCW/self-protection on something other than the COTUS, say, a natural law God-given right to life, this still fails as an analogy for illegal immigration.  If one reads the Bible, it clearly states that the State is to have some power and that power is granted by God.  Moreover, respect and obedience is due the state.

Not to cause a branch in the discussion so I'll be brief. I disagree and believe that it should be interpreted differently. I'm a Christian anarchist. But that would be for a whole different thread.

Quote
a natural law God-given right to

This is mostly what I base it on.
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

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longeyes

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Re: Illegal Alien kids in schools
« Reply #74 on: May 10, 2010, 12:31:20 PM »
It was said above that the GOP once had the "latino" vote and lost it.  So be it.  If retaining that vote means endorsing illegal immigration, we gain nothing by embracing it.  I am not so sure that we lose "latinos" by doing the right thing, and I am sure that assuming tribal and ethnic loyalty as our guiding principle is definitely a bad thing.
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