Author Topic: I'm about to earn my gun rights stripes  (Read 2688 times)

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
I'm about to earn my gun rights stripes
« on: May 09, 2010, 03:32:38 AM »
I'm taking on our state university's ban on carry on campus.  We've held a protest and approached the Board of Regents and University President several times.

The University President just wrote the following Compass article (op-ed from the community) attempting to justify the gun ban, please read it first.  I'm attaching my response, which I'm told by the local commie rag they intend to print shortly.

http://www.adn.com/2010/05/06/1267335/universitys-gun-restrictions-are.html

My response:

As a lifelong Alaskan and UAA Justice Major I was distressed to read Pres. Hamilton’s Compass article regarding carry on campus.  I expected him to directly address the legal and Constitutional issues involved rather than relying on evasion and poorly reasoned arguments.

      The issue is simple.  University policy forbids adult students and faculty from exercising their right to carry weapons on campus exactly as they currently do off campus, on pain of administrative sanction.  The policy assumes that these adults, who are lawful carriers off campus, will become dangerous simply by entering University grounds. Regardless of Pres. Hamilton’s dismissal of the legal issues as “ridiculous”, Alaskans have a Constitutional right to bear arms that cannot be infringed by “… the state or a political subdivision of the state.” (Alaska Constitution, Art. 1, Sec.19).  Further, state statute prevents its political subdivisions from introducing restrictions beyond those listed in statute (AS 29.35.145 and AS 11.61.190-220).

      The University is a state public institution.  The Regents are authorized to “…adopt reasonable rules, orders, and plans with reasonable penalties for the good government of the University and for the regulation of the Board” (AS 14.40.170 (b) (2)).  Pres. Hamilton is claiming that the Board’s complete ban on lawful carry by adults on the public property of an entity of the State of Alaska is a “reasonable rule”; ignoring the fact that even the Municipalities in which the campuses are located cannot do so.  The complete denial of a fundamental Constitutional right hardly seems “reasonable”.        

      I find it disingenuous for Pres. Hamilton to note that weapon storage is allowed in vehicles by policy.  That doesn’t address actual carry on campus and is a change made only after the state Students for Concealed Carry on Campus representative recently pointed out that the University was in violation of another state statute (AS 18.65.800). You don’t get to crow about something you were forced to do.

      The presence of a few prohibited locations does not rationally justify banning lawful carry on the entire campus.  State law would continue to ban carry inside the premises, fenced playgrounds and immediately adjacent parking lots of the campus daycares.  If the UAF pub is a “bar”, state law bans carry within its premises and already prohibits carry while drinking.  The presence of K-12 age students simply does not make someplace a K-12 school. These arguments carried to their logical extreme would bar carry in public everywhere in the state, as daycares, pubs and students of K-12 age are present in or near all non-prohibited local stores, malls, restaurants, theatres, churches, libraries and public parks.

      If the Board wants to have a policy that carry isn’t allowed into administrative hearings, they are likely free to do so. Similarly, if the Board is concerned about students who live in the dorms (a privilege, not a right) possessing weapons in their rooms or even students under the age of 21 carrying on campus, such limited, narrowly-tailored, restrictions would probably meet legal standards.

      The University appears to be on shaky legal ground with its total ban on campus carry by law-abiding Alaskan adults.  President Hamilton did not present sound arguments to distinguish the University from other public locations where carry is allowed.  He and the Board also fail to address why many universities nationwide don’t have such bans yet are not “less safe” nor have a lesser “university experience”.  If those adult students and faculty can responsibly carry on their campuses, on what basis do he and our Board feel adult Alaskan students and faculty cannot?

      Finally, the University of Colorado is in the process of losing a lawsuit against its own ban with an almost identical set of facts; Colorado State University has already bowed to the inevitable and rescinded its campus ban rather than fight their own expensive losing case in state court.  With UA costs and tuition rising should our University risk fighting an expensive legal battle of its own to defend a policy that could be easily and safely modified to bring it into line with Alaska law?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2010, 03:37:06 AM by Matthew Carberry »
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

CNYCacher

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,438
Re: I'm about to earn my gun rights stripes
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2010, 08:45:37 AM »
I love what you are doing, but I think you need to re-write your response without assuming that the reader has read the University President's article in the immediate past.

For example, had I not read the President's article, I would be confused by you here:
Quote
      The presence of a few prohibited locations does not rationally justify banning lawful carry on the entire campus.  State law would continue to ban carry inside the premises, fenced playgrounds and immediately adjacent parking lots of the campus daycares.  If the UAF pub is a “bar”, state law bans carry within its premises and already prohibits carry while drinking.  The presence of K-12 age students simply does not make someplace a K-12 school. These arguments carried to their logical extreme would bar carry in public everywhere in the state, as daycares, pubs and students of K-12 age are present in or near all non-prohibited local stores, malls, restaurants, theatres, churches, libraries and public parks.

Perhaps something more like:
Quote
      The president attempts to justify the policy by listing areas which are prohibited for weapons under AK law, and then trying compare the campus to those locations.  The presence of a few prohibited locations does not rationally justify banning lawful carry on the entire campus.  State law would continue to ban carry inside the premises, fenced playgrounds and immediately adjacent parking lots of the campus daycares.  The president claims that since students drink on campus, and carrying in bars is illegal, then then the campus shold be treated as a bar. If the UAF pub is a “bar”, state law bans carry within its premises and already prohibits carry while drinking.  The president claims that since weapons are banned in k-12 schools, and there are sometimes k-12 children on campus, that the campus should be treated like a k-12 school. The presence of K-12 age students simply does not make someplace a K-12 school. These arguments carried to their logical extreme would bar carry in public everywhere in the state, as daycares, pubs and students of K-12 age are present in or near all non-prohibited local stores, malls, restaurants, theatres, churches, libraries and public parks.


I dunno, just a suggestion.  In some ways you did better in your comment on the article's web site
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
Charles Babbage

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,277
Re: I'm about to earn my gun rights stripes
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2010, 08:50:29 AM »
Hmmm ...

Quote from: Mark Hamilton
The University of Alaska Board of Regents has a gun policy for our campuses that doesn't violate the Second Amendment and doesn't break state law.

Quote from: 2nd Amendment
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

A policy that does not allow anyone to bear arms on campus certainly seems to me to violate a Constitutional provision that says the right to bear arms shall not be infringed. How did this clown get to be president of a state university if he's functionally illiterate?

It is of note that Mr. Hamilton is a 30-year veteran of the U.S. Army, a former general. Of the same victim disarmament Army that recently allowed a radical Muslim officer to shoot up a bunch of unarmed soldiers because said Army doesn't think it's personnel should have a right to defend themselves. The policy worked so well at Fort Hood, why would anyone think it won't work at University of Alaska?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2010, 08:54:54 AM by Hawkmoon »
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
Re: I'm about to earn my gun rights stripes
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2010, 08:58:54 AM »
Quote
How did this clown get to be president of a state university if he's functionally illiterate?
Magic?  =D
Avoid cliches like the plague!

Monkeyleg

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,589
  • Tattaglia is a pimp.
    • http://www.gunshopfinder.com
Re: I'm about to earn my gun rights stripes
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2010, 09:15:24 AM »
A very well-written reply. I'd agree that you should write it with the assumption that the reader hasn't read the chancellor's article.

One other point: you're conceding carrying in dorms. Don't concede anything like that until the powers that be rule against you. Do the students pay to live in the dorms? If so, then it's no different than renting an apartment or even a motel room.

Have you considered taking this to court? It would seem to me that you have a good case.

kgbsquirrel

  • APS Photoshop God
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,466
  • Bill, slayer of threads.
Re: I'm about to earn my gun rights stripes
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2010, 09:18:12 AM »
The policy worked so well at Fort Hood, why would anyone think it won't work at University of Alaska?

Because the risk of having soldiers, who are charged with putting their life on the line to protect this nation under arms, actually exercise the constitutional rights they protect obviously outweigh any benefit it may have, such as, you know, stopping a mass murderer from shooting up a building full of unarmed people. Because that doesn't happen very often, right? And of course, if it's good enough policy for soldiers than it's good enough for those pesky excessively-vociferous pinko hippie civilians, who after all need to just shut up and do what the government tell them to. The elected obviously know better than everyone else and only have our best interests at heart.

[barf]

Despite the obvious sarcasm I feel dirty and degraded. If anybody needs me I'll be in the shower for the next 8 hours.


To the OP: Very good write up, and I'll reiterate that you should write it in such a manner as that it can be read as a stand alone article. And yes, don't concede anything.

RocketMan

  • Mad Rocket Scientist
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,625
  • Semper Fidelis
Re: I'm about to earn my gun rights stripes
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2010, 11:39:24 AM »
Just a nit:

"...on what basis do he and our Board feel adult Alaskan students and faculty cannot?"

I'd change it to "...on what basis do he and our Board believe adult Alaskan students and faculty cannot?"

Otherwise, good job Matthew.  Best of luck with your efforts.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,277
Re: I'm about to earn my gun rights stripes
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2010, 03:03:11 PM »
If it isn't too late, resolution of a similar ban in Colorado might make a useful reference and talking point.

http://www.gun-politics.org/showthread.php?t=815

I second RocketMan's suggestion. "Believe" is better than "feel"? The truth is, they are operating on a belief system based on feelings rather than logic or fact, but don't give them the right to establish policy based on feelings. Keep the discussion as objective as possible.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: I'm about to earn my gun rights stripes
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2010, 03:42:26 PM »
Despite the obvious sarcasm I feel dirty and degraded. If anybody needs me I'll be in the shower for the next 8 hours.

With the aid of a cheese-grater, you can cut that down to an hour, tops.

carebear:

Good on ya.  Watch your back in any administrative proceedings.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
Re: I'm about to earn my gun rights stripes
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2010, 05:59:45 PM »
Thanks all.

I'll look at (another) edit. My original was 1100 words and was a point by point rebuttal.  The max word count is 675, not sure how to squeeze more in without leaving something out.

I tried to at least reference his Compass piece in the intro so folks could compare.

I'm meeting at the end of the month with NRA Board member and local gun rights attorney Wayne Anthony Ross about a lawsuit.  As noted in my final paragraph I think based on Colorado's experience and the facts in that case we have a similar chance of success. 

I deliberately threw them a bone on the various probably acceptable restrictions to sound more "reasonable" to stem public outcry.  Besides, I do think they have some power in limited ways.   In any event those restrictions will still be challengable later or during the lawsuit if it becomes necessary. 

I don't want to get the Mother's of America who read the paper hounding the Legislature to just make the campuses prohibited places in statute.  Besides, there is already a dorm gun storage rule in place, tying carry to removing it at this point is premature.
 
The gun rights fight is all about strategy and marketing, the important thing is to win the big issue(s) while at least appearing to be reasonable on the side issues.  Tweaking later when the main issue is off the radar is easy enough, after all, that's how AK and AZ got Constitutional Carry.

Just like U CO, UA seems to be trying to rest on its state granted authority while denying it is bound by larger state restrictions.  They really lose either way, either they're a state institution and thus bound, or they are more or less a municipality of their own and again bound. 
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
Re: I'm about to earn my gun rights stripes
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2010, 06:51:32 PM »
Revision based on your comments below.

As a side note, trotting out the 2nd Amendment any time gun laws are being discussed, particularly when it isn't germane to a given issue I think weakens our argument.  I believe undecided folks hear "but the 2nd Amendment says..." and stop listening assuming they've heard the song before.  With issues like carry, campus or not, in states with good existing state Constitutional protections it is almost irrelevent.

Don't feed the anti's a hook they can use to distract from the main issue; note how Hamilton mentions the 2nd to woo all the people who view "2nd Amend types" as absolutist nut jobs but is silent on the actual binding state Constitutional and statutory provisions.  In some of my responses to various local liberal blogs I started out by saying, "This has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment and here's why..."  which shut down a line of attack the anti's love to use.  They love to get us refighting the debate about the 2nd rather than dealing with the local laws and facts.


Final revision:

As a lifelong Alaskan and UAA Justice Major I was disappointed to read Pres. Hamilton’s Compass article regarding carry on campus.  I expected him to directly address the legal and Constitutional issues involved rather than relying on evasion and poorly reasoned arguments.

The issue is simple.  University policy forbids adult students and faculty from exercising their right to carry weapons on campus exactly as they currently do off campus, on pain of administrative sanction.  The policy assumes that these adults, who are lawful carriers off campus, will become dangerous simply by entering University grounds.  Regardless of Pres. Hamilton’s dismissal of the legal issues as “ridiculous”, Alaskans have a Constitutional right to bear arms that cannot be infringed by “… the state or a political subdivision of the state.” (Alaska Constitution, Art. 1, Sec.19).  Further, state statute prevents its political subdivisions from introducing restrictions beyond those listed in statute (AS 29.35.145 and AS 11.61.190-220). 

The University is a state public institution.  The Regents are authorized to “…adopt reasonable rules, orders, and plans with reasonable penalties for the good government of the University and for the regulation of the Board” (AS 14.40.170 (b) (2)).  Pres. Hamilton is claiming that the Board’s complete ban on lawful carry by adults on the public property of an entity of the State of Alaska is a “reasonable rule”; ignoring the fact that even the Municipalities in which the campuses are located cannot do so.  The complete denial of a fundamental Constitutional right hardly seems “reasonable”.
 
I find it disingenuous for Pres. Hamilton to note that weapons are allowed in vehicles by policy.  That doesn’t address actual carry on campus and is a change made only after the state Students for Concealed Carry on Campus representative recently pointed out that the University was in violation of another state statute (AS 18.65.800).  You don’t get to crow about obeying the law.

As for Pres. Hamilton’s listed concerns, the presence of a few prohibited locations does not rationally justify banning lawful carry on the entire campus.  State law would continue to ban carry inside the premises, fenced playgrounds and immediately adjacent parking lots of the campus daycares.  State law already bans carry within the premises of the UAF Pub and prohibits carry while drinking by anyone.  Obviously the mere presence of K-12 age students does not make someplace a prohibited K-12 school.  Indeed, his arguments carried to their logical extremes would bar carry in public everywhere in the state as daycares, pubs and K-12 age students are present in or near all non-prohibited local stores, malls, restaurants, theatres, churches, libraries and public parks.
 
If the Board wants to have a policy that carry isn’t allowed into administrative hearings, they are likely free to do so.  Similarly, if the Board is concerned about students who live in the dorms (a privilege, not a right) possessing weapons in their rooms or even students under the age of 21 carrying on campus, such limited, narrowly-tailored, restrictions would probably meet legal standards.

The University appears to be on shaky legal ground with its total ban on campus carry by law-abiding Alaskan adults.  President Hamilton did not present sound arguments to distinguish the University from other public locations where carry is allowed.  He and the Board also fail to address why many universities nationwide don’t have such bans yet are not “less safe” nor have a lesser “university experience”.  If those adult students and faculty can responsibly carry on their campuses, on what basis do he and our Board believe adult Alaskan students and faculty cannot?

Finally, the University of Colorado is currently losing a lawsuit against its own ban with an almost identical set of facts; Colorado State University has already bowed to the inevitable and rescinded its campus ban rather than fight their own expensive losing case in state court.  With UA costs and tuition rising should our University risk fighting an expensive legal battle of its own to defend a policy that could be easily and safely modified to bring it into line with Alaska law?   
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

kgbsquirrel

  • APS Photoshop God
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,466
  • Bill, slayer of threads.
Re: I'm about to earn my gun rights stripes
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2010, 01:34:29 AM »
Congrats! Read through some of those "comments" on the rag's board. Some of them are... interesting.

Regolith

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,171
Re: I'm about to earn my gun rights stripes
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2010, 02:10:40 AM »
Congrats! Read through some of those "comments" on the rag's board. Some of them are... interesting.

Hence the saying "Our side has facts, reason and logic.  Their side has penis jokes."
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. - Thomas Jefferson

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt the Younger

Perfectly symmetrical violence never solved anything. - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth