Author Topic: forced organ donor status  (Read 9130 times)

KD5NRH

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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2010, 11:55:25 PM »
Once you're dead, value is meaningless.

Next time someone in your neighborhood dies, move into their house and take their stuff.  See how meaningless that value is to their estate.

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You are dead, you organ is either going to rot away or get used.

Most kidney and marrow donors are still alive.  Even for other organs, if I am able to state in my will how the rest my property is to be disposed of, why is my body the only thing I have that can't be sold and the proceeds given as I choose?

Brad Johnson

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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2010, 02:23:10 AM »
That would depend entirely upon how the form is worded and the role of the family, if any.  I doubt very much that if you verbally withdraw consent for donation, the organs will be harvested nonetheless, even if you sign a form.  I doubt very much that if you revoke the 'opt-out' form that you will be a forced organ donor.

Even for those of us who sign up to be donors, the usual and customary practice is to ask the family for permission. If they refuse, your wishes to donate are usually ignored.  In an 'opt-out' system, I suspect that the family will still be asked. 

In "suspecting that the family will still be asked" you presume the fed.gov has both conscience and ethic.  Therein lies the problem. 

At it's inception the rule may be both well-meaning and promoted by those with some sense of order, ethic, and personal dignity.  Once it becomes law, or at least regulation, a "verbal opt-out" means nothing and the entire mess falls into the realm of bureaucratic oversight.  That, unfortunately, removes any ethic, presumption of dignity, or sense of basic humanity.  If it's not on paper, signed, in triplicate, notarized, and properly registered, any verbal agreement for or against is meaningless in fed.gov legal terms.  They will harvest first and ask questions later (the formal version of asking forgiveness rather than permission).  Presumption means nothing.  It's whatever the fed.gov interprets the regs to be no matter the personal or ethical boundaries that may be overstepped.

Brad
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 02:32:15 AM by Brad Johnson »
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MillCreek

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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2010, 08:16:50 AM »
^^^^Uhhh, not to rain on your  [tinfoil] parade, but the OP was describing proposed legislation in New York state.  Not Federal law.
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Tallpine

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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2010, 10:48:46 AM »
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So I assume you're saying the donor should be paid beforehand, while he or she is still alive?  Well then, your kidneys for example wouldn't really be yours.  No more alcohol for you.  How about your heart that has been purchased by another.  You traded it's value for money.  I hope you don't like eating fast food or drinking soda or beer.  The health of your cardiovascular system is no longer only your concern.  You damage your own heart after selling to to someone, you are destroying their goods.

And how does that differ in essense from this proposed mandatory donor status?

Since we're planning on taking your organs anyway, you better start taking care of them  :police:
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MicroBalrog

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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2010, 10:55:53 AM »
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You are dead, you organ is either going to rot away or get used.

There's also cryonics.

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MechAg94

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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2010, 11:25:28 AM »
What's the problem with donor's or the donor's estate getting paid?  It would likely increase the number of potential donors.  If the estate was going to get paid a chunk of money, the family might be less inclined to block the donation. 


Just a question about an urban legend I heard years ago:  Who pays for removal and handling of the organs?  I had someone tell me years ago that sometimes the families of the donors get stuck with that cost.  I've never heard anything about that part.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2010, 11:36:03 AM »
^^^^Uhhh, not to rain on your  [tinfoil] parade, but the OP was describing proposed legislation in New York state.  Not Federal law.

Then simply replace fed.gov with NY.gov.

Brad
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MillCreek

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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2010, 11:56:55 AM »
Just a question about an urban legend I heard years ago:  Who pays for removal and handling of the organs?  I had someone tell me years ago that sometimes the families of the donors get stuck with that cost.  I've never heard anything about that part.

The insurance company of the organ recipient pays for the costs of transplantation, which includes the harvesting, preparation and transport of the organs.  The total costs are well up into the six figures.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
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MechAg94

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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2010, 12:12:15 PM »
The insurance company of the organ recipient pays for the costs of transplantation, which includes the harvesting, preparation and transport of the organs.  The total costs are well up into the six figures.
Thanks.  Are there ever cases were organs that can be donated are removed, but no donor is there?  I guess that would be a good thing.
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MillCreek

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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2010, 12:42:53 PM »
Thanks.  Are there ever cases were organs that can be donated are removed, but no donor is there?  I guess that would be a good thing.

UNOS, or the United Network for Organ Sharing, coordinates every organ transplant done in the USA.  They have a nationwide database of who needs what.  Generally speaking, priority is given to the person in the most immediate clinical need in the region in which the organ is being donated.  If there is no suitable recipient in the region, UNOS starts expanding the search until there is a match between donor and recipient.  Once there is a match, UNOS coordinates the surgery times between donor and recipient and the transportation arrangements, so the organ has a minimal transit time. 

It is not unknown for some organs to be shipped all across the country.  Organs have a 'shelf-life', and some of them cannot be transported long distances and will tend to stay in the same region in which they were harvested.

Some regions have more organs available than others, and people in those regions will often have shorter waiting times for an organ.  This is why Steve Jobs went from California to Tennessee to get a liver for transplant.  There are many nasty allegations of money and politics playing a role when these sort of things happen.  I have read of people in Seattle waiting for a heart that have moved down to the Bay Area, where the waiting times are shorter for a heart. 
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MillCreek
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Tallpine

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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2010, 03:01:57 PM »
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I have read of people in Seattle waiting for a heart that have moved down to the Bay Area, where the waiting times are shorter for a heart. 

Yeah, I've heard that lots of people have left their hearts there  ;)   

 :lol:
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MillCreek

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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2010, 03:48:43 PM »
This was published today (5/10/10) on CNN:

California, New York mull changes to organ donor laws

By Madison Park, CNN
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Bill in New York would make everyone who doesn't opt out an organ donor
California bill is less far-reaching, but has backing of governor and Steve Jobs
Supporters say better encouragement of organ donations are needed
Opponents cite infringement on rights of privacy and property
(CNN) -- A California bill may soon create a living donor registry -- the first for any state.

Spurred by Apple co-founder and transplant recipient Steve Jobs, the bill has gained support from major politicos, including California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, and is expected to land on his desk this summer.

Meanwhile, on the East Coast, a far more sweeping transplant bill would make every person an organ donor who doesn't opt out. This would create an organ donation system in New York similar to the ones used in several European countries, but the measure is already facing opposition.

The two states have vastly different bills, but their intents are the same.

With more than 100,000 U.S. patients waiting for organ transplants, better methods of encouraging organ donations are needed, supporters say.

California

This bill creates a living donor registry for kidneys. Read the bill (enter SB 1395)

Patients who need kidney transplants often have friends or family members who are willing to donate their organs. But sometimes, these organs do not match.

Registries have been set up on the Web or by transplant centers where kidney patients and their donors seek to swap organ matches.

Having a state registry would "take it from a process that has been spontaneous and driven by the Web into a more organized fashion, that allows transplant centers to feel a greater degree of security and confidence," said Dr. Bryan Becker, the president of the National Kidney Foundation, which supports the California bill.

The registry might increase the number of transplants, he added. About one-third of U.S. kidney transplants come from living donors.

Jobs, the CEO of Apple, was a major player in bringing the bill to the forefront, said Schwarzenegger, in a March 19 press conference.

"He's a wealthy man," Schwarzenegger said at the news conference. "That helped him get a transplant. But he doesn't want that -- that only wealthy people can get a transplant."

A pancreatic cancer survivor, Jobs received a liver transplant at Methodist University Hospital Transplant Institute in Memphis, Tennessee, last year.

Livers are scarce, as only about one-third of the people on the national transplant waiting list receive one. Jobs' transplant stirred controversy about whether celebrity and wealth gained him an advantage.

"He wants every human being -- if you have no money at all or you're the richest person in the world -- everyone ought to have the right to get a transplant," Schwarzenegger said. "This is why he has talked to my wife; he has talked to me to put the pressure on us to get this bill going so there's enough organs available for all the potential recipients."

Jobs spoke at the conference and noted that more than 400 Californians died waiting for a liver transplant.

"Last year, I received a liver transplant. I was very fortunate because many others died waiting to receive one while I received one..." he said. "I was almost one of the ones who died waiting for a liver in California last year."

The bill is expected to be at the governor's desk by July or August.

Also under the proposal, residents would be asked whether they would like to become organ donors when they receive or renew their driver's licenses or identification cards. If they leave the box unmarked, a clerk will verbally ask the question.

New York

A New York assemblyman whose daughter's life was saved by two kidney transplants said he wants more organ donations. One of Assemblyman Richard Brodksy's most controversial ideas: Make everyone an organ donor unless the individual opts out.

This is also known as "presumed consent" -- a marked departure from what's done in the United States. Several European countries, such as Spain, France, and the Netherlands operate on this concept. Brodsky said this would save more lives.

"We can trust the decency of the American people," Brodsky said. "But the government needs to come up with a program that lets people express that decency. That's what's missing -- a connection between the fundamental goodness of the American people and a system that is not producing the organs that save lives." Read Brodsky's bill here

Every year, 500 New Yorkers die waiting for an organ transplant, he said.

Another one of Brodsky's bills would prevent relatives from overriding organ donation decisions made by the deceased.

He became inspired by his 18-year-old daughter, Willie Brodsky, who had transplants because of an autoimmune disease.

Watch Brodsky's CNN interview

While sympathizing with Brodsky's perspective, Tarris Rosell, a chairman at the Center for Practical Bioethics in Kansas City, Kansas, said presumed consent infringes on individual's rights.

"The saving of life is a deep, American value, but in this sort of situation, such as presumed consent, it goes up against other American values, like right to privacy, even property rights, which begins with our bodies and a deeply inscribed individualism," he said.

Some religious and cultural beliefs value the integrity of the body and oppose organ donations, he added.

United Network for Organ Sharing, a nonprofit organization that administers the nation's organ matching and placement process, does not support presumed consent, because of "inadequate safeguards for protecting the individual autonomy of prospective donors."

These recent proposals in New York and California do not mean that public opinion toward organ donations is changing, said Sheldon Kurtz, a law professor at the University of Iowa who has drafted organ donation legislation.

"You can't assume because bills are pending that public opinions have changed," he said.

 
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MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Scout26

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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2010, 06:22:15 PM »
As someone who has sat down with a "We put the FUN in Funeral" Director and planned his own, I was  :O  when I saw "Donation of Body to Science - $2725.00" on the Menu price list of services.

They can have whatever parts they want and may be useful when I'm gone.  I'm going to be planted at Abe Lincoln National Cemetery, but Mrs Scout drew the line when I point out that a Fibreboard box is only $375.....

She was not amused when I pointed out that we might get Nike to pay for it, if we put a "Swoosh" on the sides......  Mr. FUNeral Director had to excuse himself from the room......

Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


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MillCreek

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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2010, 06:31:20 PM »
^^^ Huh.  I wonder what is involved in the donating of the corpse to science such that you have to pay $ 2725 for it. 
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

S. Williamson

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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2010, 06:36:31 PM »
Is it legally possible to request in your will that your body be sold on the black markey?  :laugh:
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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2010, 06:38:15 PM »
Is it legally possible to request in your will that your body be sold on the black markey?  :laugh:
I'm going to have a Viking funeral when I die, with a proper burning long boat and everything =D.
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sumpnz

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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2010, 09:40:53 PM »
With this thread, I can hardly believe no-one has posted this yet.

Scout26

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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2010, 10:11:59 PM »
With this thread, I can hardly believe no-one has posted this yet.

S. Williamson, post #17 beat us to it.  I was going to when I saw the thread title......
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
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Scout26

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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2010, 10:13:34 PM »
^^^ Huh.  I wonder what is involved in the donating of the corpse to science such that you have to pay $ 2725 for it. 

The embalming and body prep. 
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

MillCreek

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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2010, 10:24:23 PM »
The embalming and body prep. 

Wow.  And here I thought they would have attached a toe tag, zipped up the body bag and called the University to send the van for pickup.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2010, 10:43:07 PM »
Another idea is to put organ donors on the priority list should they themselves ever need a transplant.
That's not a bad idea.

S. Williamson

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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2010, 11:06:11 PM »
Imagine if a kidney or somesuch was transferred from patient to patient over a very long period of time...

I seriously wonder how long one could keep that up?  ???
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"The chances of finding out what's really going on are so remote, the only thing to do is hang the sense of it and keep yourself occupied. I'd far rather be happy than right any day."
"And are you?"
"No, that's where it all falls apart I'm afraid. Pity, it sounds like quite a nice lifestyle otherwise."
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Scout26

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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2010, 12:26:02 PM »
Imagine if a kidney or somesuch was transferred from patient to patient over a very long period of time...

I seriously wonder how long one could keep that up?  ???

That's why you ask for the lifetime warranty.....
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

sanglant

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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2010, 02:57:31 PM »
that's how there doing alternators now. you can get new, but you have to wait on it. the ones in stock are rebuilt. =D and you can pay more for one that will last. never get the cheap one, it's just good for a year. :facepalm:

S. Williamson

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Re: forced organ donor status
« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2010, 03:21:42 PM »
That's why you ask for the lifetime warranty.....
I was thinking more along the lines of, say, 200 years from now, someone has a kidney installed whose original... host... was born 200+ years ago, and as time passed, and people died for whatever reason, it kept getting transplanted.  =)
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"The chances of finding out what's really going on are so remote, the only thing to do is hang the sense of it and keep yourself occupied. I'd far rather be happy than right any day."
"And are you?"
"No, that's where it all falls apart I'm afraid. Pity, it sounds like quite a nice lifestyle otherwise."
-Douglas Adams