Author Topic: Miranda might lose some teeth.  (Read 7034 times)

Balog

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Re: Miranda might lose some teeth.
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2010, 12:44:57 PM »
Saying "Non citizens do not have the same rights as citizens" is a pretty far cry from your characterization there csd.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Miranda might lose some teeth.
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2010, 12:50:25 PM »
The Nazis and the Japanese (I always thought "Nips" was an offensive racial slur, but I might be mistaken - never came across it much in my life) most definitely did get constitutional rights.  T

well those citizens interred in the camps had their rights infringed a bit. especially the babies
The day after the attack on Pearl Harbor, California Governor Culbert L. Olson and State Attorney General Earl Warren (later chief justice of the U.S. Supreme Court) worked with sheriffs and district attorneys to dismiss from civil service positions all first-generation Japanese Americans (Issei) and their U.S.-born children (Nisei). Attorney General Warren froze their assets so banks would not honor their checks. Licenses to practice law and medicine were revoked, and commercial fishermen were barred from their boats. Insurance companies cancelled the policies of Japanese clients; grocers refused to sell food to Japanese shoppers. This was followed by the civil authorities’ drive to round up and intern Japanese Americans, a proposal that was loudly seconded by the West Coast press, especially the excitable San Francisco-based Hearst newspapers.  

The strong anti-Japanese spirit of the times is captured well in the following video:

After Pearl Harbor Californians feared the next attack would strike their own shores. In a fit of paranoia, both officials of the state government and ordinary citizens suspected that their Japanese American neighbors were spies and saboteurs for the Empire of Japan. Governor Olson demanded that the federal government do something about this internal threat to national security.  

In testimony before a congressional hearing on February 4, 1942, General Mark Clark, the deputy chief of staff, and Admiral Harold R. Stark, chief of naval operations, said people on the Pacific coast were unduly alarmed. General Clark estimated the chances of a Japanese invasion of California were “nil.”  

But Clark and Stark’s reassurances calmed no one. A few days earlier a commission appointed by President Franklin D. Roosevelt to investigate the Pearl Harbor attack reported that spies, some of them Japanese Americans, working in Hawaii had helped the Japanese war planes reach their targets. The authors of the report did not present any evidence to support this charge, but it did not matter. Soon The Los Angeles Times was calling for the relocation of all Japanese Americans from California, and Lieutenant General John De Witt, army commander of the West Coast, asked his superiors for permission to evacuate all Japanese from California, Washington, and Oregon. The army was not inclined to grant such a request.

When Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson raised the issue with President Roosevelt, FDR told Stimson to do whatever he thought best. Stimson passed this along to his assistant secretary for domestic security, John J, McCloy, who put the relocation plan into action. Writing to Fourth Army headquarters in San Francisco McCloy said, “We have carte blanche to do what we want as far as the president is concerned… He states there will probably be some repercussions, and it has got to be dictated by military necessity, but as he puts it, ‘Be as reasonable as you can.’”  

Stimson was opposed by U.S. Attorney General Francis B. Biddle, who regarded the relocation plan as “ill-advised, unnecessary, and unnecessarily cruel.” He was joined by the director of the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover, who dismissed the evacuation of Japanese Americans as “utterly unwarranted.” Nonetheless, on February 19, 1942, FDR issued Executive Order 9066 which suspended the civil rights of Japanese Americans and authorized Stimson to designate military exclusion zones (such as the entire West Coast) from which, for the duration of the war, the United States could bar any person without having to prove that individual’s disloyalty or ill intent. On March 21, Congress unanimously passed a bill authorizing the removal of Japanese Americans from the West Coast.  

Over the next three months, U.S. troops systematically removed more than 120,000 Japanese Americans from their homes and relocated them to desolate places inland, such as California’s Owens Valley. In most cases they were given no more than ten days to sell or rent their homes, farms, and businesses, and store their possessions (they were permitted to take only hand luggage with them). In 1945, when the Japanese Americans returned to their homes, in many cases they found their possessions had been looted and their homes and businesses purchased for pennies on the dollar by their white neighbors. In 1942, when Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau, Jr., had protested to FDR that the Japanese Americans were being exploited and their property scattered, the president replied, “I am not concerned about that.”  

Not until 1976 did a U.S. President—Gerald Ford—rescind Executive Order 9066 and issue a formal apology to Japanese Americans. In 1990 President George H.W. Bush sent out checks for $20,000, tax free, to the 60,000 survivors of the internment camps. In a letter that accompanied the check, President Bush wrote, “A monetary sum and words alone cannot restore lost years or erase painful memories, neither can they fully convey the Nation’s resolve to rectify injustice and to uphold the rights of individuals. We can never fully right the wrongs of the past. But we can take a clear stand for justice and recognize that serious injustices were done to Japanese Americans during World War II.”

heck j edgar hoover was against it   the death rate for kids under 5 was quite remarkable in the camps.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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PTK

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Re: Miranda might lose some teeth.
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2010, 07:02:56 PM »
c&sd, for once, you and I are in 100% agreement regarding universal rights. :)
"Only lucky people grow old." - Frederick L.
September 1915 - August 2008

"If you really do have cancer "this time", then this is your own fault. Like the little boy who cried wolf."

Balog

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Re: Miranda might lose some teeth.
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2010, 07:06:34 PM »
c&sd, for once, you and I are in 100% agreement regarding universal rights. :)

So when I captured terrorists in Iraq and didn't Mirandize them, when I kicked in doors and conducted search and seizure ops w/out a warrant, when our snipers set up shop in a families house for a few days etc etc we were violating the Constitutional rights of all those poor widdle Iraqis? Man, I feel just awful now.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

PTK

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Re: Miranda might lose some teeth.
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2010, 07:14:13 PM »
Not once have I said that, but thanks for twisting my words until you can kick me in the teeth for my opinions. :)
"Only lucky people grow old." - Frederick L.
September 1915 - August 2008

"If you really do have cancer "this time", then this is your own fault. Like the little boy who cried wolf."

Balog

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Re: Miranda might lose some teeth.
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2010, 07:24:39 PM »
Funny, the Constitution makes no such distinction of citizenship. It simply states that certain rights are enumerated within for all people. =|

If you aren't saying that all people have Constitutional rights, then I think it's less "Balog twisting words" and more "PTK speaking unclearly." Maybe I'm not understanding you here, but it certainly seems like you're saying non-citizens have the same rights as citizens.

Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

PTK

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Re: Miranda might lose some teeth.
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2010, 07:56:56 PM »
On US soil, yes. That's rather the entire point of the Constitution, no? To protect all humans here in the USA? =|

And no, that doesn't count those breaking laws by violating our borders - but folks that are here LEGALLY, all have the protections of the Constitution. More than once, fuzzy thinking on that point has ended up having internment camps on USA soil, for USA citizens that people don't like. :(
"Only lucky people grow old." - Frederick L.
September 1915 - August 2008

"If you really do have cancer "this time", then this is your own fault. Like the little boy who cried wolf."

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Miranda might lose some teeth.
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2010, 08:56:06 PM »
But I thought the Constitution made rights universal for all people...?

Clearly there's a disconnect here.


cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Miranda might lose some teeth.
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2010, 09:00:24 PM »
the disconnect happens when folks treat the us constitution like a lil protective field they take with them when they go adventuring. my house my rules works internationally as well as when we live with mommy and daddy.   when we forget that we end up with saint pancake  or the folks jailed in haiti who were trying to help kids.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Miranda might lose some teeth.
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2010, 09:11:34 PM »
If Constitutional rights are universal, I can't see how we'd ever be able to wage a war.

Perhaps some see this as a feature and not a bug?

Balog

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Re: Miranda might lose some teeth.
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2010, 09:34:04 PM »
Ah, well we agree then. Perhaps you thought (on US soil, legally) was implied in your statement, but I honestly did not see that.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

PTK

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Re: Miranda might lose some teeth.
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2010, 10:36:42 PM »
Fair enough. I'm glad to see that we aren't at odds. It would be hard to understand people not getting what the Constitution is for...

Slippery slope, and all that. We've seen where that leads, time and again. Hell, even the Union did some pretty horrible things in the 1860s. :(
"Only lucky people grow old." - Frederick L.
September 1915 - August 2008

"If you really do have cancer "this time", then this is your own fault. Like the little boy who cried wolf."

Balog

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Re: Miranda might lose some teeth.
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2010, 10:40:56 PM »
Pragmatism is a terrible philosophical idea in all areas, but it's suicide politically.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Miranda might lose some teeth.
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2010, 06:42:19 PM »
The Constitution follows the flag. Outside the realm of military engagement, of course, US citizens do retain a degree of Constitutional protection - from the action of their own government of course.

But PTK is correct to say that the Founders did not believe they were 'creating' rights, but rather protecting rights that already existed in all men.

"All men are endowed by their Creator ..." wasn't just rhetoric to them, you know.
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230RN

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Re: Miranda might lose some teeth.
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2010, 03:04:46 AM »
Quote
"We certainly have seen with the Shahzad incident that they have not only the aim, but the capability of (infiltrating the United States)," Attorney General Eric Holder said on ABC's "This Week."  He added, "And the sky is blue, in addition to the sun rising in the east."
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.