Author Topic: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped  (Read 10420 times)

Desertdog

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,360
Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« on: May 11, 2010, 04:56:24 PM »
They probably couldn't get anybody to sign their referendums.  If I remember right, in order to sign a referendum, you must be an registered voter.   Most of the registered voters in AZ are for the new law

Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/11/ariz-referendum-drives-targeting-new-law-dropped/?test=latestnews
Associated Press

The two proposed referendum drives challenging Arizona's new sweeping law targeting illegal immigration are being abandoned, organizers said Monday.

PHOENIX -- The two proposed referendum drives challenging Arizona's new sweeping law targeting illegal immigration are being abandoned, organizers said Monday.

Andrew Chavez, a professional petition circulator involved in one of the efforts, said its backers pulled the plug after concluding they might not be able to time their petition filings in such a way as to put the law on hold pending a 2012 public vote.

Jon Garrido, the chief organizer of the other drive, attributed its end to a belief that the law would have been subject to legal protections under Arizona's Constitution if approved by Arizona voters.

The law takes effect July 29 unless implementation is blocked by court injunctions requested under at least three of the four pending legal challenges already filed by an Hispanic clergy group, police officers and other individuals.

Its provisions include requiring that police enforcing another law must question a person about his or her immigration status if there is "reasonable suspicion" that the person is in the United States illegally. It also makes it a state crime to be in the country illegally.

Critics have said the law will result in racial profiling of Hispanics. Supporters deny that and say the law will pressure illegal immigrants to leave the country on their own.

Chavez said his clients, whom he would not identify, launched the effort in the belief that they could put the law on hold until 2012 by not filing petition signatures until it was too late for state elections officials to place a referendum on the November ballot.

However, the backers decided over the weekend to end the referendum campaign when they concluded there still might be a November vote, not giving them enough time to be confident about being able to wage a successful campaign against the law, Chavez said.

The normal deadline for ballot questions is July 1, after which the printing of November ballots and other election preparations typically get under way. The Secretary of State's Office previously acknowledged that a down-to-the-wire referendum filing by this year's July 28 deadline might not give officials enough time to get it on the November ballot. However, the office also said it would depend on circumstances at the time.

Garrido, the chief organizer of the second referendum drive, said its backers abandoned it after getting legal advice that Arizona's constitutional protections for voter-approved ballot measures would have applied to the law if approved by voters.

Secretary of State's spokesman Matt Benson said Monday the office also believes that the constitutional limitations on possible legislative action would have applied to the law if voters approved it.

The constitutional provisions bar the Legislature from repealing a voter-approved law and only allow legislative changes that further the intent of the original law. Also, any changes must be approved by three-quarters votes of both the House and Senate.

The four legal challenges filed so far in U.S. District Court in Phoenix have been randomly assigned to different judges. Several major civil-rights groups are expected to file another challenge as early as this week.

No hearings have been set yet on the lawsuits, which likely will be consolidated into one case before a single judge. That judge would then set a schedule for consideration of the plaintiffs' requests for injunctions and rulings to strike down the law.


makattak

  • Dark Lord of the Cis
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,022
Re: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2010, 05:03:55 PM »
The people authoring the drive also realized that a voter-approved law in AZ automatically has constitutional protection in AZ.

Quote
Garrido, the chief organizer of the second referendum drive, said its backers abandoned it after getting legal advice that Arizona's constitutional protections for voter-approved ballot measures would have applied to the law if approved by voters.

They realized not only would they lose, they'd be strengthening the law when they did.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,425
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2010, 05:07:54 PM »
 :lol:
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2010, 07:00:56 PM »
I lol'ed. Good stuff coming outta AZ these days. Now if they can just get MacDaddy out...
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Desertdog

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,360
Re: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2010, 01:23:56 AM »
He is all for the new law and for building all of the fences.  He must be really running scared.


Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,425
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2010, 01:24:56 AM »
Point him south, as in Mexico City.   =)
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

freakazoid

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,243
Re: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2010, 11:14:55 AM »
How would this law be enforceable? Let's assume that a cop had "reasonable suspicion" that someone was here illegally and they ask the person if they are here legally and the person, who is here illegally, says yes. What can the cop do? Can the person refuse to answer?
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

makattak

  • Dark Lord of the Cis
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,022
Re: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2010, 11:17:21 AM »
How would this law be enforceable? Let's assume that a cop had "reasonable suspicion" that someone was here illegally and they ask the person if they are here legally and the person, who is here illegally, says yes. What can the cop do? Can the person refuse to answer?

They arrest them. It is now a state crime in AZ to be in the country illegally.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2010, 11:18:42 AM »
Yep. Basically what happened is AZ noticed that fed.gov was refusing to enforce the law, so they took .fed law and made it a state law as well.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

freakazoid

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,243
Re: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2010, 11:25:09 AM »
Quote
They arrest them. It is now a state crime in AZ to be in the country illegally.

So the cop is psychic? What if your not here illegally and you walk away when they ask you? They can arrest you? For what?
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

makattak

  • Dark Lord of the Cis
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,022
Re: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2010, 11:26:29 AM »
So the cop is psychic? What if your not here illegally and you walk away when they ask you? They can arrest you? For what?

The cop may ask those questions if he has you stopped as part of a legal stop.

He already has a different probable cause to detain you. If you walk away, you are resisting arrest.

Honestly, there's a whole thread here about the law. Might want to check it out.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Desertdog

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,360
Re: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2010, 12:00:06 PM »
Quote
What if your not here illegally and you walk away when they ask you?

Try walking away when a LEO is questioning you and see how far you get before something you won't like happens.  Maybe you start watching the show "Cops" and you will get an idea of what can, and may, happen if you disobey a police command.

Also if you watch "Cops", remember they know they are being taped, but they are  not very gental.

freakazoid

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,243
Re: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2010, 12:22:29 PM »
Quote
He already has a different probable cause to detain you.

Like a license plate light that is out? lol

Quote
The cop may ask those questions if he has you stopped as part of a legal stop.

How is he supposed to actually know if you are here legally or not?
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

taurusowner

  • Guest
Re: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2010, 12:26:46 PM »
There is a lot on BS going around about the AZ law, most of which comes from libs who have a lot invested in continuing illegal immigration.  They claim that now an officer can just walk around, spot some "brown people" hassle them for ID and haul them off to jail.  THis is of course, entirely false.

This law applies when the person in question is already being detained for other lawbreaking.  They are already stopped, detained, or arrested.  They have already broken another law like shoplifting, OWI, or as is the probable case in Phoenix, murder and kidnapping.  This law simply allows police to also investigate whether the person is an illegal, which they were not able to do before.

freakazoid

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,243
Re: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2010, 12:30:56 PM »
Quote
This law applies when the person in question is already being detained for other lawbreaking.

Like a license plate light that is out? Oh, well it turns out that it actually wasn't out but since I already have you pulled over, are you here legally?
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

taurusowner

  • Guest
Re: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2010, 12:33:16 PM »
Like a license plate light that is out? Oh, well it turns out that it actually wasn't out but since I already have you pulled over, are you here legally?

No.  Not like that.  Care to stop being snarky and discuss the thread?

freakazoid

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,243
Re: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2010, 12:34:22 PM »
Yes like that. If not, then how? Also, again, how is he supposed to actually know if you are here legally or not?
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

red headed stranger

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,263
Re: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2010, 12:42:25 PM »
Yes like that. If not, then how? Also, again, how is he supposed to actually know if you are here legally or not?

They are supposed to have reasonable articulable suspicion that a person is here illegally.  Believe me, there are plenty of suspicious traffic stops that happen here. 

For instance:  A minivan gets pulled over for speeding on a know human trafficking corridor  Upon stopping the van the officer notices that there are 15 people in there.  The officer asks the driver if he knows the names of his passengers.  The driver cannot. 

Another:

A pickup truck blows through a red light.  When the officer approaches the vehicle, he realizes that there is a person or persons under the lumber in the back of the truck. 

These sound improbable, but apparently these scenarios are pretty common AZ. 

The final determination of the legality of their presence is left up to the Feds.  Under the law, their reasonable suspicion gives them the ability to ask for the info. 
Those who learn from history are doomed to watch others repeat it

freakazoid

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,243
Re: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2010, 12:49:40 PM »
Quote
They are supposed to have reasonable articulable suspicion that a person is here illegally.  Believe me, there are plenty of suspicious traffic stops that happen here.

Yeah, they stop someone for some reason, ran a stop sign, brake lights out, whatever. They notice something they consider suspicious, like a lot of people. But then what? So I can be arrested if I don't know everybody in my car? At what point can the person actually be arrested?
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2010, 01:05:27 PM »
Yeah, they stop someone for some reason, ran a stop sign, brake lights out, whatever. They notice something they consider suspicious, like a lot of people. But then what? So I can be arrested if I don't know everybody in my car? At what point can the person actually be arrested?

You might try, you know, reading the actual law. It's like 14 pages.

Like a license plate light that is out? Oh, well it turns out that it actually wasn't out but since I already have you pulled over, are you here legally?

This law has anything to do with illegal stops how? Oh, it has absolutely nothing to do with that, but bringing it up makes you feel as though you've scored a point somehow? Good to know. /shakes head You need to take this weak crap back to RevLeft freak, it ain't gonna fly around here.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Desertdog

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,360
Re: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2010, 02:22:13 PM »
Read the law.  Accoring to what I read of the law, if the person has a legal state drivers liscense, that is all they need as proof that they are here legally.

I would think that if I was a LEO and stopped sombody for speeding, and they did not have ANY ID, and did not speak English, I would be suspecious, no matter what they looked like.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,770
Re: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2010, 02:50:52 PM »
First, I would think legal residents or citizens would be in the system for the officer to look up for a basic description.

Second, I heard that has already been Federal law for a while that legal immigrants (not citizens) are required to carry their "papers" with them.  
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,770
Re: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2010, 02:57:50 PM »
Yeah, they stop someone for some reason, ran a stop sign, brake lights out, whatever. They notice something they consider suspicious, like a lot of people. But then what? So I can be arrested if I don't know everybody in my car? At what point can the person actually be arrested?
If you pay attention to all the Taser threads, the police can arrest you pretty much whenever they decide you need to be arrested.   =D  You can argue about it later, but they have guns and lots of friends with guns. 

If you have 10 people in your car and you don't know who they are and you are in a known human trafficking corridor, why do you think the officer should just say okay and walk away? 

Honestly, all your arguments could also be made when talking about cops pulling over black people too much.  Those laws are completely different and this immigration enforcement law doesn't change them a bit.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

sanglant

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,475
Re: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2010, 03:00:43 PM »
no snark from?

what is the world coming to? :angel:

red headed stranger

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,263
Re: Ariz. Referendum Drives Targeting New Law Dropped
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2010, 05:36:38 PM »
Yeah, they stop someone for some reason, ran a stop sign, brake lights out, whatever. They notice something they consider suspicious, like a lot of people. But then what? So I can be arrested if I don't know everybody in my car? At what point can the person actually be arrested?

You will likely be arrested if the officer can clearly state in plain language (not a hunch or "spidey sense") why he/she think you are in the country illegally.  It would be articulated as a totality of circumstances, not just one thing.  These are criteria that already exist in law enforcement.  

In the situation you just mentioned, an officer would likely ask for a reason why you don't know the people you are driving in your car. If you don't give a reasonable explanation, I think it is reasonable to ask for ID.  If you don't have your state issued license with you, you can give the officer your name and social, and they will be able to find you in their system.    
Those who learn from history are doomed to watch others repeat it