Author Topic: Digital Darkroom  (Read 8839 times)

Ron

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2009, 09:45:24 AM »
+1 on under exposed vs over exposed.

I can nearly always bring back an underexposed photo in Adobe PS Elements. The photos that are blown out over exposed usually don't look right if they can be salvaged at all.

Using Elements editing in RAW gives me way more options and control than working with .jpgs
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

mtnbkr

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2009, 02:12:06 PM »
Ok, I'm confused again.

As my images come out of the camera, they look fine on the screen, but looking at the histogram indicates they are slightly underexposed.  Allowing Irfanview to apply "auto color correction" bumps up the exposure a touch.  It's not a huge adjustment, just a tweak.  I sent a couple images (uncorrected, straight from camera with only NEF to JPG conversion) to Penn Camera with instructions to not adjust anything.  Those images came back significantly lighter than expected. 

I sent a 2nd set to both Penn and Walmart without special instructions.  I have the Penn prints back and they look great, but Penn reduced the exposure a bit to get that result.  Penn thinks my images are overexposed a touch.

Speaking to the guy who runs the lab at Penn, it appears there is not hard and fast "correct" method.  He said I should adjust my images to get the desired result at its final step (in this case, printing at Penn).  They're not equipped to match my camera, my monitor, their monitor, and their printing system like pro labs do.  I don't expect this of them, I'm just trying to get my camera and computer as close as possible to what my printers (Penn and WM) will deliver so there are no surprises.  It's not so important for snapshots (they're coming out as I wanted), but if I have something "special" to print, I'm probably going to want full control over the exposure, colors, etc. 

Chris

go_bang

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2009, 02:32:12 PM »
Chris, trying to get labs line Penn and Wal-Mart to makes prints exactly the way you want them is an effort in futility.  These guys are rigged for cranking our snapshots quick and cheap.  Their market is the snapshooter who isn't all that picky about how the prints come out as long as they look good and presentable for friends and family.

If you want to take full control of how your prints look then you need to either work with a lab that is set up this kind of work or buy your own printer and make them yourself.  If you're going to do the former then you will need to calibrate your monitor, use good quality image software, and learn about color spaces (sRGB, Adobe RGB 1998, etc).  These guys may even have a link on their websites where you can download a color profile that matches their print equipment.  You'll pay more for this kind of service too.  If you would rather get a good printer, start with something simple.  A low end HP Photosmart or Epson Stylus R-series is a good place to start.


Brad Johnson

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2009, 02:35:09 PM »
but if I have something "special" to print, I'm probably going to want full control over the exposure, colors, etc. 

Chris

The only way to make that happen is go get a GOOD monitor and a decent monitor calibration setup.  Once you are calibrated everything should be WYSIWYG.

*EDIT TO ADD*

...and a second on everything GB said above.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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mtnbkr

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2009, 02:39:54 PM »
They're actually printing my prints how I'd want them, I'm trying to get a handle on the camera/computer side of things so what I seen on screen is what they're printing without correction.  The confusing part is the histogram.  It says "underexposed".  Irfanview, via it's "auto correction" is saying "underexposed".  Penn thinks the files are "overexposed".  I don't understand how that works.  I thought the histogram was an absolute measurement of the light and color values. 

If I adjust my digital images (in camera or on the computer) so they can be printed at Penn without correction, they're way too dark on my computer and the histogram indicates underexposure as well.

I guess my confusion is with the whole "histogram" thing.  Is that actually an absolute measurement or one that can be influenced by software and local computer settings?

Chris

Ron

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2009, 02:45:04 PM »
Excellent, this discussion prompted me to look further into my printer software and find where I can set it up to print using sRGB or Adobe RGB profiles.

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

go_bang

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2009, 03:42:31 PM »
There are a few factors at play here.

First, you really don't know how Penn has configured their equipment.  Remember, their bread and butter is taking image files straight out of the customer's camera or memory card and printing them.  Their machine is programmed to apply some kind of correction as a rule, and you probably have no way of knowing if the guy running the machine that day honored your request to print without correction or not.  In short, outfits like Penn are the wrong kind to use to establish a baseline on anything.  You need to find a lab that is geared towards handling a customer that takes complete control of how their image should look and only wants the lab to push PRINT on their fancy machine, but is also technically savvy enough to work with the photographer to help him get what he wants.

Second, the histogram is only one factor in how a picture is going to look.  The histogram can say you have good exposure, but that might mean turning black to dark gray or bright white to light gray in order to get there.  If you don't want your black to be dark gray then you'll probably have to adjust the image in a way that pulls the histogram towards the underexposed side.  The histogram is just a tool that lets you know where the information is in the image.  When you're making the images with the camera, you want to strive for a histogram scale that shows you that all the pixels have a good range of values because that means you're not loosing any image information.  When you're printing your images, the goal is to make the image look the way you want it to look.  That might mean making the picture look under or over exposed to some degree.  It might even mean that you tear the histogram to utter shreds.

Third, it seems like you need to decide what your goal is here because you're pulling yourself in too many conflicting directions.

If your goal was to get good 4x6 prints via a cheap photolab, which IIRC was the original intent in buying the camera in the first place, then it sounds like you're pretty much there.  Try to make sure your images are exposed properly, using the in-camera histogram as a guide to help you keep all the pixels between 0 and 255, and let Penn handle the printing.

If your goal is to learn how to take control of the process and make your prints look way YOU want them to then get a copy of Photoshop or Photoshop Elements, a good book to help you learn the concepts and how to use the program, a device to calibrate your monitor, and a decent printer.

Whatever you do, stop trying to adjust the images in-camera.  That will just cause nothing but confusion.  The displays in the cameras are not designed for any kind of color or exposure accuracy.

mtnbkr

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2009, 04:14:37 PM »
There are a few factors at play here.

First, you really don't know how Penn has configured their equipment.  Remember, their bread and butter is taking image files straight out of the customer's camera or memory card and printing them.  Their machine is programmed to apply some kind of correction as a rule, and you probably have no way of knowing if the guy running the machine that day honored your request to print without correction or not.  In short, outfits like Penn are the wrong kind to use to establish a baseline on anything.  You need to find a lab that is geared towards handling a customer that takes complete control of how their image should look and only wants the lab to push PRINT on their fancy machine, but is also technically savvy enough to work with the photographer to help him get what he wants.

Penn supposedly will print files exactly as delivered.  They also annotate the back of the print to show what they did, if anything.  I learned that today, so I don't know what's on the back of the "light" prints.  I know they're not the best place to be doing this with, but they're convenient and I'm still learning what the camera does.


Quote
Second, the histogram is only one factor in how a picture is going to look.  The histogram can say you have good exposure, but that might mean turning black to dark gray or bright white to light gray in order to get there.  If you don't want your black to be dark gray then you'll probably have to adjust the image in a way that pulls the histogram towards the underexposed side.  The histogram is just a tool that lets you know where the information is in the image.  When you're making the images with the camera, you want to strive for a histogram scale that shows you that all the pixels have a good range of values because that means you're not loosing any image information.  When you're printing your images, the goal is to make the image look the way you want it to look.  That might mean making the picture look under or over exposed to some degree.  It might even mean that you tear the histogram to utter shreds.

Ok.  I think you said that before and it was lost on me. 

Quote
If your goal was to get good 4x6 prints via a cheap photolab, which IIRC was the original intent in buying the camera in the first place, then it sounds like you're pretty much there. 

That will be the most common use of the camera, but I do shoot some things to be printed larger to hang on the wall, etc.  I want to make sure I have a complete understanding of my camera and how the image goes from "subject" to print in a digital environment. 

Quote
Whatever you do, stop trying to adjust the images in-camera.  That will just cause nothing but confusion.  The displays in the cameras are not designed for any kind of color or exposure accuracy.

I'm not adjusting anything on the camera display, just using it for a spot check as I take pictures.

Chris

Gewehr98

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2009, 04:20:21 PM »
I second the motion for color-correction of your computer monitor. 

They vary wildly from device to device, and from CRT to LCD.

Even my 42" plasma TV benefited from it.

I couldn't believe how dark my Half-Life 2 ran, until I ran the game's internal gamma correction settings. 

Same for Adobe CS3 and Quark.  You'd be surprised how "off" things can be.   :O
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 04:35:07 PM by Gewehr98 »
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mtnbkr

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2009, 04:24:03 PM »
I'm going to get a color-correction device tonight.  I was getting confused by what Penn apparently sees in my image (one that's overexposed) vs what I'm seeing at home (properly exposed to slightly under) vs what Brad Johnson reported (about 1 stop under). 

In all three cases, the camera settings were static and no change was made in software on the PC.  File was taken from the camera and uploaded the web (for the image Brad saw) or to Penn's server (for the prints).  I was under the impression Brad and Penn calibrated their gear.

Chris

Harold Tuttle

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2009, 04:29:01 PM »
I ran into this when I configured my Canon to record in the Adobe RGB 1998 color space

My prints from microsoft sRGB calibrated hardware looked washed out,
sometimes you have to go with "joe sixpack" settings even though there are better formats

The drycreek calibration profile network is pretty cool, you can use their data to run a calibrated job on the local Costco Noritsu
http://www.drycreekphoto.com/icc/

Costco #204:  4725 West Ox Rd., Fairfax, VA  22030  Phone: 703-332-3208
Store info: Noritsu 34-Pro, Fuji Crystal Archive Paper.
Glossy paper profile, January 17, 2009
Lustre paper profile, January 17, 2009
This printer uses our enhanced accuracy custom profiles.
Note: This lab has multiple printers. Request your profiled prints be run onthe Noritsu QSS 34-Pro.


http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/color_management.htm

I used to run monthly/weekly color calibrations with screen spiders on Natty Geos layout machines
I soon discovered that overdriving a CRT to "properly calibrate" the gamma & saturations soon killed a CRT

big boy tools:
http://www.color.com/products.html

match printing an inkjet to contract a gravure print job are serious business
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 04:32:07 PM by Harold Tuttle »
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2009, 04:34:15 PM »
You have to learn how to think like the camera. Think of the histogram as the "evaluative metering" mode (or whatever Nikon calls it).  It takes the entire photo and analyzes it for overall values.  It takes whatever is most prevalent in the picture and uses that for the exposure basis.

Example:

You take a picture of Mike standing on your back porch, getting kicked in the crotch by Abby.  The sun is shining brightly but Mike is in the shade, doubled over in pain.  If you set the camera to properly expose the now suffering-stricken Mike the background will be blown out.  Presuming the actual image is 2/3 yard and only 1/3 Mike, the camera will see the image as overexposed since the "majority" of it is way too hot (the brightly lit yard vs the subjects in shade).  In that case the histogram will be skewed way over into the highlights.

For purposed shots I usually set the camera to center-weighted meter.  That way I can properly expose for the subject and ignore the background.  For generic snapshots I set it to evaluative.  If your Nikon is like my Canon the Full Auto mode uses evaluative metering by default.


Quote from: mtnbkr
I was under the impression Brad and Penn calibrated their gear.

I've calibrated my monitor, but that doesn't mean it's perfect.  I can say that, in my case, the camera histogram, Photoshop's "Does this need correcting?" functions, and my MkI eyeball all seem to see the same thing as gets printed.  As to what Penn does, can't say.


Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

Brad Johnson

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2009, 06:58:24 PM »
Chris, check you PM's.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

mtnbkr

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2009, 09:59:18 AM »
Replied via email.

Chris

Brad Johnson

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2009, 12:07:07 PM »
Should be sitting in your In Box.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

mtnbkr

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2009, 12:15:28 PM »
Got it.  I'll have to wait till tonight to check it out though.  My monitors here at work are much darker than the one at home (they're wearing out).

Thanks

Chris

mtnbkr

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2009, 12:16:38 PM »
Oh yeah, I got a Spyder2Express and used it last night.  It turned the brightness down a hair and increased the "warmth" of the WB.  Minor changes though.

Chris

Brad Johnson

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2009, 12:24:57 PM »
How good is your home monitor?  When I first went digital I had a generic monitor and was having fits making things look good even after I'd calibrated it multiple times.  I went to a Dell Ultrasharp and the diff was amazing.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

mtnbkr

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2009, 12:26:38 PM »
It's the standard LCD on a 3yo Dell Inspiron B130.

Chris

Brad Johnson

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2009, 12:30:17 PM »
I'd be VERY tempted to hook up an external monitor for it and see if there's a diff in what you're seeing.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

mtnbkr

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2009, 01:31:58 PM »
The only other monitor I have is an even older Dell LCD. 

Chris

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #46 on: April 23, 2009, 03:52:53 PM »
Ok, I made 9 prints today.

3 prints at Penn with no corrections at all.
  1 Original 
  1 As supplied by Brad
  1 adjusted by me

I also sent the same 3 a second time, but told Penn to adjust as they see fit.

My file and Brad's look very similar.  Might is very, very slightly overexposed compared to his, but the difference is subtle (you have to have them next to each other and really look for it).  The original, untouched file is slightly underexposed (this is the file linked above).  My file, Brad's file, and the Penn interpretation are all very similar and what I remember seeing when I took the picture.  To get my file, I took the original underexposed image and hit "auto color correction" on Irfanview.  Brad did something similar with Adobe.  So, it looks like taking pictures with those settings and using "auto color correction" results in a good print at Penn, even if they're a tad bright on my screen at home.

I also sent the same images to Walmart just to see what they do with them.  Since I can't specify "no corrections", I expect to see a "proper" exposure, but it will be interesting to see if there's any difference between the three files and how they compare to the others.

Chris

Brad Johnson

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #47 on: April 23, 2009, 04:04:44 PM »
Actually I all I used was the auto contrast correction (corrects for both brightness and contrast).  I didn't correct for colors as they seemed to be spot-on.

Auto color correction can be a tricky thing.  The software looks for a bright spot it can use to calibrate the white balance.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.  Depends on what the software thinks it's seeing.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

mtnbkr

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #48 on: April 23, 2009, 04:15:19 PM »
Irfanview calls it "auto adjust colors", but it seems to only affect factors such as contrast, brightness, etc.  The colors don't change at all.

Chris

Harold Tuttle

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Re: Digital Darkroom
« Reply #49 on: April 23, 2009, 07:41:46 PM »
Dan Margulis can teach a color blind man how to color correct a file

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Margulis
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
He strikes from below like a viper or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around!
He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"