Rotate Your Carry Ammo: Squib Load in Snubby

[Gewehr98]

I've gotta ask. Has there ever been a documented case of hand loads being used against the shooter in a self-defense situation? It seems like a no-win, honestly. Evil handloads vs evil cop killer hollow points vs evil hardball.

There are a couple cases where handloads factored into the criminal case, search the multiple threads on the Siamese THRs using handloads/defense/Mas Ayoob for particulars.

Honestly, the criminal court case isn't what concerns me most in a defensive shooting with handloads.  It'll either be ruled as justified or it won't, with all the problems inbound for the latter decision.

What bugs me is the civil case brought against the shooter by the estate of the ventilated/lead poisoned/deceased after the criminal court case ends in favor of the shooter.  The jury in a civil case doesn't have to reach a unanimous verdict, and the attorney for the plaintiff can go hog wild portraying the shooter as somebody not willing to use off-the-shelf ammo, trying to test effectiveness of his handloads, etc.  See where that goes?  So I minimize my liability by sticking to the same stuff the cops use, or ammo known for defensive purposes...

It's not unlike OJ being found Not Guilty in the criminal trial, and Guilty in the civil case afterwards. 

[roo_ster]

When reloading for hunting in crappy weather (I never use handloads for self-defense, being a graduate of LFI-I and LFI-II), I use a small bottle of something called George & Roy's Primer Sealant.

It looks like a clear/blue fingernail polish, with the same consistency and bottle shape.

http://www.cabelas.com/p-0003180210621a.shtml

That is a very useful tip.  Thanks.

I'm still puzzled, however, by how much oil JFRuser has slathered all over his carry revolver.  If there's so much present that it's actually contaminated his carry ammo, then I'm afraid his bolt face pressures are way high due to oil between the chambered rounds and the cylinder chamber walls. Revolvers don't like ammo that flows brass and/or primers into the firing pin bushing - it'll lock up the cylinder's rotation after just the first round. Not good.

The frame & cylinder are of titanium alloy, so I didn't leave much on the outer surface & wiped it dry.  I was, however, generous with the lube on the internals, center pin spring, etc.  I think part of my problem was I used old-school Breakfree CLP, which was my preferred cleaner, lube, & preservative for CCW.  I suspect the solvent properties might have added to the problem.

The pressure of the 180gr Winchester ammo is likely the lowest of any of the full-power .357mag loads I tried.  Subjectively, there is much less blast and the brass always fell free nice & easy.  Several 158gr .357 mag loads would stick in the cylinder, requiring some serious work to get out and the 125gr loads were like a bomb going off, blast-wise, especially to the folks shooting to my sides at the range.  Objectively, the primers on the Win 180gr loads were between uh, "soft" and "sharp," definition-wise.  Meaning, the pressure wasn't so low that the firing pin left a rounded dent and wasn't so high that there was a precise impression of the firing pin in the primer.  Absolutely no intrusion into the firing pin bushing.

I suspect that some CLP came in through the FP bushing and had a good, long, while to work its way in.  Toss in temp changes (below freezing to over 100deg) over the year that might expand & contract the brass...

Well, I am not certain of the cause, but it can't hurt to get a little paranoid about CLP near the cartridges. 

[Balog]

G98: I was talking about the civil case too. And like I said, I think the ambulance chaser could spin anything to sound bad. I'll look it up on THR and TFL to see if that tactic has ever worked.

[MillCreek]

Interesting that I have both the same Taurus titanium revolver and two AMT DAO Backups: .380 and 9 mm.  I bought my Backups new back in the 80's and they have been stellar in every respect.  The .380 is a pain to detail disassemble, so I don't shoot it that much. 

I really like my Backups, and High Standard is manufactuing and selling them now.

[Gewehr98]

Don't get wrapped up in whether it has worked in previous civil case history. Ask yourself instead if you wish to set a precedent.  Sometimes it's good to be a pioneer, other times not so much.

[S. Williamson]

Where does one find anhydrous graphite, and is it expensive? Ditto for ultrasonic cleaners, come to that. :)

My tub o' graphite I got from the aircraft mechanic school I used to go to.  You can actually buy the stuff at hobby stores and hardware stores, but if you need to go online try here, here, etc.  Key thing is to search "dry graphite lubricant."

For ultrasonic cleaners, a good link to follow is: http://www.aajami.com/

[Nick1911]

Where does one find anhydrous graphite, and is it expensive? Ditto for ultrasonic cleaners, come to that.

I got my ultrasonic cleaner at Harbor Freight for around $100.

It's a knock-off, but preforms just fine!    Harbor Freight has some diamonds in the rough, if you know what you're looking at.

[Balog]

Don't get wrapped up in whether it has worked in previous civil case history. Ask yourself instead if you wish to set a precedent.  Sometimes it's good to be a pioneer, other times not so much.

My reasoning would be that if it were an effective argument, some tile crawler out there would've already used it.

That being said, I just don't see it as a greatly persuasive line of thought. "Zomg handloads!!!on1!!" could just as easily be "Zomg evil police issue ammo, he's a vigilante!" or "Zomg military style ammo, he's a militia nutter!" I pretty much assume should I ever (God forbid) have to shoot someone in self defense, their relatives will be suing me regardless of the type of ammo I use. And I doubt the type of ammo I use will be very persuasive to the jury, especially as I could give a reasoned defense of why I chose it.

That being said, I'm not hating on anyone who chooses not to carry hand loads. I can understand the fear even if I don't agree.

I got my ultrasonic cleaner at Harbor Freight for around $100.

It's a knock-off, but preforms just fine!    Harbor Freight has some diamonds in the rough, if you know what you're looking at.

Hmmm, I get a corporate discount at one of our suppliers. Must see what they have...

[MechAg94]

I thought Ayoob's reasoning was that you should find out what ammo your local police/sheriff use and buy that.  I just try to use store bought ammo where the box says "self defense" or something like that.  I always figured the concern was simply to take away one line of argument that a shyster lawyer might use against you.  In reality, I never seem to buy the same hollow points so I would have to check my gun to see what is in it.

At least in Texas, we passed the castle doctrine legislation that limited lawsuits in cases where the shoot was justified.  That does help.

[Balog]

Ditto WA, Castle Doctrine and stand your ground laws. I'd never live in a non-Castle Doctrine state.

[Gewehr98]

It boils down to one's individual risk management strategy. 

One can ride a lifetime on motorcycle sans helmet, drink like a fish and smoke like a chimney, and still live to be 100. 

Carrying handloads for defensive ammo?  I'll pass, based upon my own training and choices.  It would suck to be acquitted in the criminal trial, and still end up a pauper after the civil trial. 

[Balog]

It boils down to one's individual risk management strategy. 

One can ride a lifetime on motorcycle sans helmet, drink like a fish and smoke like a chimney, and still live to be 100. 

Carrying handloads for defensive ammo?  I'll pass, based upon my own training and choices.  It would suck to be acquitted in the criminal trial, and still end up a pauper after the civil trial. 

Well, that's not a really fair comparison, as it is factually more dangerous to go without a helmet, whereas I haven't seen anything to say handloads present a greater risk at civil trial except Mas Ayoob's guess that it might maybe possibly could.

[roo_ster]

I think part of Mas Ayoob's reasoning is that the police will claim they can not do ballistics tests, residue tests, etc. for reloads.

Which is bull (on the part of police capability, not MA's assertion that the police will claim it).

If you're the good guy & had a good shoot, these tests would work in your favor is the assumption.

Now, I live in a jurisdiction that no-billed a man who shot up three tweakers in the space of a week or so as they tried to enter his place of business at 0dark30. 

I think that whatever you do or use, the "estate" of the crack head/dealer will sue.
I went to so much trouble to find a commercial SD load where POI=POA in the 7-25 yard range to eliminate this particular variable.  It would have been much easier for me to buy the components and brew a load specifically for my Taurus...which I still might do.

FTR, I am neither a Mas-basher or Mas-worshipper.  I think the guy is smart & experienced.

[Gewehr98]

I think it's a very fair comparison.  You take a risk well aware of the consequences, and should not feign surprise if the worst outcome happens.  If you're willing to stick your neck out that extra little bit with handloaded carry ammo, then that's part of your own risk management strategy.  I'm not, it's where I draw that particular line.  Sounds ironic, doesn't it?  I carry a firearm to protect myself, yet won't pack handloads. Maybe I'm brainwashed, maybe I feel it's bad enough I have to shoot somebody in self defense and the horrors that result without adding more complications.  If the local police are packing it, chances are it'll hold up in court, and that's good enough for me.  There's no need for me to go with mercury-filled pre-fragmented .88 Magnums that shoot completely through schools.  Nice, maybe, but it's a calculated risk on the part of the defensive shooter.  What's the return on the investment?  When handloading hollow-point defensive ammo, you can at best duplicate off-the-shelf fodder, unless you're really doing something wild and woolly - which then attracts the wrong kind of questions in a venue that requires professional legal assistance to win.  If you're lucky, perhaps your attorney can have Mas Ayoob testify as a technical witness for the defense...

[Gewehr98]

One of the actual shooting cases that Mas quotes on THR regarding handloads referred heavily to GSR - Gun Shot Residue.  The shooter lost the case.

It may have actually been peripheral to the judgement, but was indeed a factor.  The simple fact that it was part of the arguments means that the subject has been and can still be broached.  You can certainly hire a gun-savvy tilecrawler afterwards, but again, what are the gains?

[Balog]

Well, I don't carry handloads (haven't even bought all I need to start hand loading yet) so this is a moot point for me. It just galls me to see something presented as ironclad fact just because someone speculates that it might happen. That being said, I haven't had a chance to research it enough to say for certain it hasn't been a factor in a civil trial.

As for the "why" of handloads, I was thinking of jfrusers POA != POI issues, not crafting some super hot load or anything.

[roo_ster]

Yep, I wouldn't try to craft a dino-killer. 

Just the opposite in the case of my SW629 .44mag.  I'd tone the suckers down to something a little more sporty than a .44spl. 

Heck, that is what I did for my wife's Model 92 lever gun in .44mag: craft a mild sub-1000fps handload with 240gr LSWC.  Now that I think of it, that is exactly what it is stoked with in the (locked) gun closet.  (I want my wife to have access to a long gun that she is familiar with.  The 92 is it.)  I guess I could hunt for a SD load for it, but she likes it as-is.

Funny, I never started out to be the "guy who runs his hand loads as SD ammo."  Just kinda ended up that way.  Huh.  At least it is just for home defense and not what I tote around town.

[Jim147]

For the graphite Gunslick still shows making it. I am down to about three tubes from a bunch I bought several years ago.

Now that we are on the ammo side, I'll give my thoughts on that.
In my autoloaders I use Hornady TAP. It feeds all the time and I hope it will work if I every need it. I do have a few autoloaders that prefer FMJ so that is what they get fed. If I was down to reloads that is what I would use.

In my revolvers it is all handloads. I live in a castle state so if it is a good shoot it is a good shoot.
My 45 Colt is my most common carried HD pistol. I figure if I can hit a raccoon in the head, one handed, by flashlight, while he has his teeth locked on my dogs nose, in the creek, it will take care of anything that gets past the dogs.

On a drift back to the OP your thoughts of the oil going down the firing pin was the only thing I could think of if it really was a oil problem. There is no way to ever be sure that you didn't get that one faulty round in thousands.

jim

[41magsnub]

I live in texas. Temptation to generously oil is great when my carry guns rust easily from body sweat.

Not so unique to Texas, I already ended up with a little light surface rust on my 438 on the trigger and hammer and I haven't had it for a week.  The light oiling I did to those parts is wiped off probably the second it goes in my pocket.  I'm taking the floor wax advice as soon as I get to a store.