Post by: wmenorr67 on May 14, 2008, 03:28:34 AM
Quote
RESTON, Va. The patrons at Champps, an upscale restaurant and bar chain, were eating ribs and drinking beer on a recent Saturday when customer Bruce Jackson stood up and made an announcement: He was armed, and so were dozens of other patrons.
The armed customers stood up in unison, showing off their holstered pistols and revolvers. Jackson said a word or two about the rights of gun owners to carry firearms in Virginia, then thanked everyone for their attention and sat down.
The diners returned to their burgers and Budweisers.
The Virginia Citizens Defense League organized the gathering at Champps to prove a point: that the presence of armed customers in northern Virginia restaurants would elicit little more than shrugs.
The Champps appearance _ and several other restaurant visits throughout northern Virginia last month _ were a response to comments from the majority leader in the state Senate, Democrat Richard Saslaw, who said armed patrons would be unwelcome in northern Virginia restaurants.
"In most urban areas, you walk into a restaurant with a gun on your hip, they're going to tell you to get out," Saslaw said.
In fact, with a few exceptions, the gun owners got their meals. The group went to eight different restaurants in April _ including the Fuddruckers burger chain and the McLean Family Restaurant _ and more often than not their presence failed to generate a stir. At two eateries, they were asked to leave.
All the restaurants were in Fairfax County, a bastion of suburbia and soccer moms outside Washington that is the wealthiest county in America, according to the most recent Census data.
"This is an area with a large population of government agents _ FBI, CIA, local," said Champps' manager, Carey Vereen. "In terms of people seeing open carry, it's not a shock to our customers."
It is also a place where nerves over the gun debate are still somewhat raw a year after the shootings at Virginia Tech, where 32 people were slain, including many from northern Virginia.
Gun owners in Virginia are allowed to carry firearms in bars and restaurants that serve alcohol, as long as the restaurant permits it and they carry their weapon openly. Legislation to allow concealed weapons in restaurants serving alcohol passed the General Assembly this year, but was vetoed by Gov. Timothy M. Kaine.
Virginia is one of two states, along with Montana, that demands any arms be openly carried in restaurants that serve alcohol, according to the Web site opencarry.org, which promotes and monitors gun owners' rights. Eleven states ban guns altogether in restaurants that serve alcohol, while the rest make no distinction between open and concealed carry.
At Champps, several patrons failed to notice that so many customers were armed, even though dozens of gun-toting men and women had walked right past them.
Tomas Nolasco said he hadn't noticed the guns and didn't care as long as they weren't drinking, which they weren't. His wife was a little more concerned.
"There are families in here, children in here," Cathy Nolasco said. "It bothers me."
Dave Vann, a retired D.C. police officer and VCDL member who organized the restaurant visits, said the gun owners' presence make the restaurant more safe, not less.
Many of the men who carry weapons said people frequently just assume they're police or retired police.
At one restaurant _ Mike's American Grill _ the group had gone essentially unnoticed until a woman in her 20s with a satin-finished, stainless-steel revolver got up from her table.
The restaurant's manager spotted her and asked the group to either put the guns in their cars or leave. They left.
"When I saw the gun on her hip, I was like, 'What is going on here?'" said the manager, Gabba Kaye, who hadn't noticed the guns when the group of 20 checked in for their lunch reservation.
Kaye said he hadn't received complaints from customers, but that the weapons made him uncomfortable. He also said he had been warned by the restaurant's owners about the visit and instructed not to allow the group service while carrying.
Saslaw said he's not necessarily surprised that VCDL found restaurants in the region that would allow them to dine while armed. But he said that carrying guns is simply not normal behavior in this area.
"What normal person walks around with a gun on your hip? Something's wrong in your life" if you feel compelled to carry a gun as part of your daily routine, he said.
The armed customers stood up in unison, showing off their holstered pistols and revolvers. Jackson said a word or two about the rights of gun owners to carry firearms in Virginia, then thanked everyone for their attention and sat down.
The diners returned to their burgers and Budweisers.
The Virginia Citizens Defense League organized the gathering at Champps to prove a point: that the presence of armed customers in northern Virginia restaurants would elicit little more than shrugs.
The Champps appearance _ and several other restaurant visits throughout northern Virginia last month _ were a response to comments from the majority leader in the state Senate, Democrat Richard Saslaw, who said armed patrons would be unwelcome in northern Virginia restaurants.
"In most urban areas, you walk into a restaurant with a gun on your hip, they're going to tell you to get out," Saslaw said.
In fact, with a few exceptions, the gun owners got their meals. The group went to eight different restaurants in April _ including the Fuddruckers burger chain and the McLean Family Restaurant _ and more often than not their presence failed to generate a stir. At two eateries, they were asked to leave.
All the restaurants were in Fairfax County, a bastion of suburbia and soccer moms outside Washington that is the wealthiest county in America, according to the most recent Census data.
"This is an area with a large population of government agents _ FBI, CIA, local," said Champps' manager, Carey Vereen. "In terms of people seeing open carry, it's not a shock to our customers."
It is also a place where nerves over the gun debate are still somewhat raw a year after the shootings at Virginia Tech, where 32 people were slain, including many from northern Virginia.
Gun owners in Virginia are allowed to carry firearms in bars and restaurants that serve alcohol, as long as the restaurant permits it and they carry their weapon openly. Legislation to allow concealed weapons in restaurants serving alcohol passed the General Assembly this year, but was vetoed by Gov. Timothy M. Kaine.
Virginia is one of two states, along with Montana, that demands any arms be openly carried in restaurants that serve alcohol, according to the Web site opencarry.org, which promotes and monitors gun owners' rights. Eleven states ban guns altogether in restaurants that serve alcohol, while the rest make no distinction between open and concealed carry.
At Champps, several patrons failed to notice that so many customers were armed, even though dozens of gun-toting men and women had walked right past them.
Tomas Nolasco said he hadn't noticed the guns and didn't care as long as they weren't drinking, which they weren't. His wife was a little more concerned.
"There are families in here, children in here," Cathy Nolasco said. "It bothers me."
Dave Vann, a retired D.C. police officer and VCDL member who organized the restaurant visits, said the gun owners' presence make the restaurant more safe, not less.
Many of the men who carry weapons said people frequently just assume they're police or retired police.
At one restaurant _ Mike's American Grill _ the group had gone essentially unnoticed until a woman in her 20s with a satin-finished, stainless-steel revolver got up from her table.
The restaurant's manager spotted her and asked the group to either put the guns in their cars or leave. They left.
"When I saw the gun on her hip, I was like, 'What is going on here?'" said the manager, Gabba Kaye, who hadn't noticed the guns when the group of 20 checked in for their lunch reservation.
Kaye said he hadn't received complaints from customers, but that the weapons made him uncomfortable. He also said he had been warned by the restaurant's owners about the visit and instructed not to allow the group service while carrying.
Saslaw said he's not necessarily surprised that VCDL found restaurants in the region that would allow them to dine while armed. But he said that carrying guns is simply not normal behavior in this area.
"What normal person walks around with a gun on your hip? Something's wrong in your life" if you feel compelled to carry a gun as part of your daily routine, he said.
http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2008May14/0,4670,GunsinRestaurants,00.html
Good show.
Post by: Fly320s on May 14, 2008, 03:31:31 AM
Just like this:
"Kinves in restaurant draw stares, but little outcry."
Post by: LadySmith on May 14, 2008, 03:39:11 AM
Quote
"There are families in here, children in here," Cathy Nolasco said. "It bothers me."
Quote
"When I saw the gun on her hip, I was like, 'What is going on here?'" said the manager, Gabba Kaye
Quote
"What normal person walks around with a gun on your hip? Something's wrong in your life" if you feel compelled to carry a gun as part of your daily routine, he said.
"I'm afraid, so you have to change." Amazing how paranoid they come across.
Post by: Standing Wolf on May 14, 2008, 04:02:34 AM
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"I'm afraid, so you have to change." Amazing how paranoid they come across.
Scratch a bully, and you'll always find a coward.
Post by: Ben on May 14, 2008, 04:57:34 AM
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 14, 2008, 05:00:17 AM
See, down here it is not an issue - if people carry guns, they carry them openly.
Post by: wmenorr67 on May 14, 2008, 05:06:23 AM
Make it easier to carry my Ruger.
Post by: Manedwolf on May 14, 2008, 05:11:54 AM
I've never seen the point of open carry, anyway, except hiking or riding. If a criminal intends to commit a crime, open carry is like a sign over your head of "shoot this person first!"...
I like it better when it's easy for people to legally carry concealed. Then the criminals don't know who is armed, and who will nail them if they try to rob a place...so they have a strong deterrent.
Seems to work, too, here.
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 14, 2008, 05:23:38 AM
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I've never seen the point of open carry, anyway, except hiking or riding. If a criminal intends to commit a crime, open carry is like a sign over your head of "shoot this person first!"...
Or "DON'T ATTACK THIS PERSON."
Many people - including many really bad guys, will avoid messing with you altogether if you're armed.
You can never be sure you'll kill/disable the victim with the first shot, and most of these people are cowards. Remember most self-defense uses of firearms end with the good guy drawing the gun.
Post by: Manedwolf on May 14, 2008, 05:26:36 AM
I prefer concealed. The first indication a bad guy should have that I'm armed is a muzzleflash and hopefully a sudden and disabling injury.
And if it's not a robbery, if it's a mall rampage, a visible gun means they'd be watching carefully. I'd rather be one of the anonymous, ignored masses right up until the point I find hard cover and line up aimed shots.
Widespread concealed weapons really seems to have kept crime down here, the opposite of the next state down, where they're very hard to get. (for anyone but criminals, of course). There have been several "surprise!" cases where an armed thug finds themselves taking shots from a CCW holder, and I think that unknown has served as a deterrent. Anyone might be armed. They can't tell.
Post by: Boomhauer on May 14, 2008, 05:29:22 AM
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I've never seen the point of open carry, anyway, except hiking or riding. If a criminal intends to commit a crime, open carry is like a sign over your head of "shoot this person first!"...
Or "DON'T ATTACK THIS PERSON."
Many people - including many really bad guys, will avoid messing with you altogether if you're armed.
You can never be sure you'll kill/disable the victim with the first shot, and most of these people are cowards. Remember most self-defense uses of firearms end with the good guy drawing the gun.
Criminals have no compunction about shooting you in the back. Don't start that "if you want to carry a gun, carry it openly on your hip" crap. Concealed carry is better and safer for the average citizen. You do not want to draw the attention of LE or the bad guys. I fully support having the option of concealed or open carry, but I prefer concealed.
Post by: zahc on May 14, 2008, 05:30:15 AM
Post by: Boomhauer on May 14, 2008, 05:35:19 AM
Am I the only one who things the restaurant bit is really stupid and immature? I carry a gun, but not so that I can stand up at restaurants and proclaim that I do so to dozens of strangers.
I kind of agree. It's nice that they were armed, but standing up and making a speech is stupid.
Post by: Manedwolf on May 14, 2008, 05:41:19 AM
Criminals have no compunction about shooting you in the back.
Depending on the sort of criminal, neither should you.
Take the aforementioned mall rampage. What's better, to flee from a guy who saw you had a gun and decided to start with you as a result, as they spray their trenchcoat-concealed whatever at you?
Or to have them not notice you, find hard cover, and be able to take your time lining up a few perfect shots to their center of mass, center of back from behind as they're busy shooting at other people?
I know which makes more sense to me, and is likely to save more lives, too!
I don't carry a gun to make a statement. I carry one for self defense and defense of innocents from violent criminals that are without any doubt trying to kill them.
Post by: K Frame on May 14, 2008, 05:46:46 AM
You cannot carry concealed in a restaurant that serves alcohol, but you can carry openly. Stupid vagarity of the law.
But, prior to 1995, when the current CCW law was put into place, it was perfectly legal for CCW holders to carry concealed in a restaurant that serves alcohol.
And, as far as anyone has ever been able to determine, there was NEVER a single problem.
VCDL is trying to point out the stupidity and contradiction in the two laws.
There have been numerous proposals to fix the CCW law, but none have suceeded.
Every time it comes up the anti-CCW crowd starts pissing their pants and trotting out fear campaigns. "But someone with a concealed gun might have alcohol spilled on him, which would cause him to slaughter every patron in the restaurant AND rape the manager!"
I have to admit, I've ignored the law numerous times over the years for a couple of reasons... I don't drink, and every time I've ignored it the person with whom I'm eating dinner is a Federal police officer with full police powers in Virginia. He threatens to arrest me every time, but he and I both know that he's too lazy to do the paperwork.
Post by: Scout26 on May 14, 2008, 05:54:24 AM
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Kaye said he hadn't received complaints from customers, but that the weapons black people made him uncomfortable. He also said he had been warned by the restaurant's owners about the visit and instructed not to allow the group service.
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 14, 2008, 05:58:29 AM
Then why, in a serious coldblooded bank or armored car robbery, do they shoot the armed guard first?
Dozens of terrorist acts - literally - have been stopped by armed civilians down here. Suicide bombers. AK-47-wielding nutcases. Knife-wielding idiots. You name it.
I have seen a person who is a self-defense instructor recommend that all those people traveling in the Territories or near the border for whatever reasons carry openly.
Most criminals are NOT professional bank robbers.
Post by: mtnbkr on May 14, 2008, 05:59:30 AM
Most criminals are NOT professional bank robbers.
Don'tcha know every criminal is a character from Heat?
Chris
Post by: Manedwolf on May 14, 2008, 06:02:46 AM
Most criminals are NOT professional bank robbers.
Don'tcha know every criminal is a character from Heat?
Chris
I'm just thinking of things like the armored car robbery in Florida a few months ago where a guy just ran up on the armed guard and shot him several times pointblank, then his associate as well, killing them both, then taking the money.
Not movie-style. Just cold sociopath killer. They tend to shoot at the people who can shoot back first.
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 14, 2008, 06:11:19 AM
However, were I an American citizen of the appropriate age, and had I had a pistol in my posession, it would likely be an openly-carried double-stack semi-auto, possibly a Springfield XD or Glock.
This however is no gun forum.
Post by: mtnbkr on May 14, 2008, 06:17:51 AM
I'm just thinking of things like the armored car robbery in Florida a few months ago where a guy just ran up on the armed guard and shot him several times pointblank, then his associate as well, killing them both, then taking the money.
Not movie-style. Just cold sociopath killer. They tend to shoot at the people who can shoot back first.
Not movie-style. Just cold sociopath killer. They tend to shoot at the people who can shoot back first.
I imagine he shot the guy who was uniformed and in control of the money, not simply because he had a gun. That guy would've gotten shot if he didn't have a gun because he was the immediate obstacle between the crook and the money.
An armed person (street clothes) in a crowd of people doesn't really stand out unless he walks right in front of you.
Chris
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on May 14, 2008, 04:26:07 PM
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 14, 2008, 10:16:31 PM
Post by: freakazoid on May 15, 2008, 03:33:15 PM
Post by: LAK on May 15, 2008, 10:50:13 PM
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"What normal person walks around with a gun on your hip?
Well anyone walking around with a gun on my hip would arouse my curiosity. Anyone wearing a gun on their own hip, I would think that is quite normal and ignore them for the most part. 
Post by: Manedwolf on May 15, 2008, 11:08:47 PM
I think it's like those myths that you can't use handloads/hollow-points/+P rounds in a self-defense firearm, or defend yourself with a Black Rifle, or whatever.
Myths? The first is law in New Jersey. And when a dead home invader's deadbeat family files a civil suit against you, the sleazy lawyer will hold up an example of the rifle you used to try to convince everyone that you were a horrible person who wanted to kill people with this evil black assault rifle. That's just a fact.
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 16, 2008, 12:17:29 AM
Post by: Ex-MA Hole on May 16, 2008, 12:33:11 AM
Am I the only one who things the restaurant bit is really stupid and immature? I carry a gun, but not so that I can stand up at restaurants and proclaim that I do so to dozens of strangers.
I kind of agree. It's nice that they were armed, but standing up and making a speech is stupid.
Yeah....that was my though, too....
I don't open carry, because I CHOOSE not to. I just don't want to. I like appearing like a sheep. I like blending in. Aside from match days, where I MAY done a Walther shirt, I wear nothing that screams gun. Aside from a no-shoot sticker on my car, which unless you shoot IDPA, you will have no idea what it means...no NRA stickers, nothing.
I don't want to draw a second look.
I like to blend in...
Post by: LadySmith on May 16, 2008, 02:41:37 AM
While I understand why it would be better to conceal carry. Like Manedwolf said, if someone is bent on just killing a bunch of random people more than likely they will shoot the person who can fight back first. BUT, a believe in this time of age it is important to also openly carry because I believe that a right not exercised is a right lost.
I'm of the same sentiment as Freakazoid on this issue.It's a personal choice and I understand concealment, but open carry could serve to acclimate those unused to seeing guns in the hands of ordinary people.
Quote
Kaye said he hadn't received complaints from customers, but that the weapons black people made him uncomfortable. He also said he had been warned by the restaurant's owners about the visit and instructed not to allow the group service.
These days, I'd probably be Kaye's worst nightmare.
Post by: LAK on May 16, 2008, 03:40:17 PM
-----------------------------
http://searchronpaul.com
http://ussliberty.org/oldindex.html
http://www.gtr5.com
http://ssunitedstates.org
Post by: mek42 on May 19, 2008, 05:42:48 AM
I think that individuals open carrying can help to increase awareness that carrying a gun != automatic raging massacre. Also, if open carry thus becomes more prevalent there will be a deterrent effect against crime. It is way too much like work to be on the wrong end of return fire for the average criminal.
Against one of those killing spree / suicide types that have been making the media often these days, I don't know that they'll care either way open or not.
Unfortunately, here in NY open carry is illegal. Other places people can choose what they're most comfortable with. Choices are good.
Post by: Manedwolf on May 19, 2008, 06:15:08 AM
Which means if someone panics and reports a man with a gun because you're walking around the buffet with your biggest barbecue gun on your hip, yes, you CAN be arrested and charged.
Post by: K Frame on May 19, 2008, 06:19:25 AM
That's been tried here in Virginia, in Fairfax County, a couple of times, as well as a couple other places in Virginia. It's failed every time and has resulted in the charges being dropped by police.
If an individual is complying with the law, and someone else gets all panicky about it, there's no basis for the arrest. The person carrying the gun would have to be acting in a manner outside the boundaries of the law. Simply walking up to a buffet doesn't qualify.
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 19, 2008, 07:03:09 AM
That's the worst thing that happened to a regular NH citizen openly carrying in a peaceful manner, and even that wasn't terribly bad.
Post by: Manedwolf on May 19, 2008, 07:17:21 AM
Post by: K Frame on May 19, 2008, 08:04:34 AM
But there's absolutely no need to rehash the scenario in the terms which you used, nor is it necessary to rekindle the entire nasty exchange between the two of you.
Neither party in the Pellietier incident handled it well.
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 19, 2008, 08:17:30 AM
If you want to reword your response, that would be fine, Maned Wolf.
But there's absolutely no need to rehash the scenario in the terms which you used, nor is it necessary to rekindle the entire nasty exchange between the two of you.
Neither party in the Pellietier incident handled it well.
But there's absolutely no need to rehash the scenario in the terms which you used, nor is it necessary to rekindle the entire nasty exchange between the two of you.
Neither party in the Pellietier incident handled it well.
I wish not to rehash the incident, because its finer points are not relevant to the discussion. The point is the person carried a gun openly in a peacable manner, still does so on a daily basis, and avoids being SWAT-raided on his way to shopping mall and back.
The idea that a person carrying a gun (and by this I mean carrying it on his belt, not, say, wielding a Desert Eagle in each hand while grinning wildly) would somehow magically prompt the cops to land you in prison, in a reasonably pro-gun state, is very dubious, especially in the light of the fact people carry guns openly every day and none of that stuff happens to them.
Post by: Manedwolf on May 19, 2008, 09:11:59 AM
He had left his jacket in his car, and was open-carrying in the small of his back. Where he couldn't see the gun, but everyone else could.
I suggest you ask any firearms instructor if that's wise.
The fact that the officer was able to sneak up behind him and grab the gun, to me, demonstrated that that's not a particularly safe way to open carry, and that he ought to have been grateful that it was a cop, not a bad guy who did that.
If you are going to open carry, at least have the gun in your sight and/or in your immediate control, not somewhere where you can't see it, where everyone else can, and where you'd immediately lose retention of the weapon in a surprise grapple.
Post by: Ezekiel on May 19, 2008, 09:13:14 AM
Am I the only one who things the restaurant bit is really stupid and immature?
No.
I carry a gun, but not so that I can stand up at restaurants and proclaim that I do so to dozens of strangers.
The model proves nothing. It is quite likely that the entire reason nobody said anything is because they suddenly realized they were surrounded by gun zealots.
(That's what such childish enterprise would lead ME to presume.)
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 19, 2008, 09:15:53 AM
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 19, 2008, 09:19:08 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on May 19, 2008, 09:21:16 AM
Manedwolf: I am not disputing what is the proper way to carry a gun, because I am frankly not qualified to give an opinion. My knowledge about handguns comes from reading various 'practical self-defense' textbooks whose practicality I greatly doubt, and interviewing firearms instructors. I am merely disputing the contention that carrying a pistol openly, in a peacable manner, in a locationn where this is legal to do, can get you into serious trouble with the law.
Massad Ayoob is good to read. I'd take one of the courses at the Lethal Force Institute (He's here where I am) if I could get a week off for it.
Been wondering if I could trade a Fortune-500-look web design for a class, too.
Their website is awful.
Post by: Ezekiel on May 19, 2008, 09:23:48 AM
Massad Ayoob is good to read. I'd take one of the courses at the Lethal Force Institute (He's here where I am) if I could get a week off for it.
I have been through LFI I.
"Good stuff."
Post by: K Frame on May 19, 2008, 09:24:04 AM
Those who think it to be a "childish enterprise" are missing the entire point of the exercise.
Post by: The Annoyed Man on May 19, 2008, 09:32:01 AM
I look forward to one day living in Northern New Hampshire and being around people who like minding their own business as much as I do. Or more people who feel that way anyhow.
Post by: Manedwolf on May 19, 2008, 09:32:41 AM
My usual carry gun requires a welding glove to hold it if I fire more than 30 rounds or so, until it cools down. That's the one drawback, you can't practice for hours with it. Mike Irwin can likely confirm on that particular model.
Post by: Gewehr98 on May 19, 2008, 09:32:55 AM
Well worth the tuition and 80 hours.
Mas really pounds into your head the ramifications of carry, and all the things you wouldn't normally think about.
Post by: K Frame on May 19, 2008, 09:40:00 AM
I keep hoping I'll come across some woven asbestos cloth in Mom's basement that I can use to make a heat shield...
Post by: freakazoid on May 19, 2008, 02:18:26 PM
Quote
I am merely disputing the contention that carrying a pistol openly, in a peacable manner, in a locationn where this is legal to do, can get you into serious trouble with the law.
I've read about times when that has happened, I believe it seems to usually be for creating a disturbance,
Post by: cngerms on May 23, 2008, 02:20:43 AM
Quote
I'd like to know the name of the other restaurant that asked them to leave so I can not go there the next time I find myself in Virginia.
VCDL maintains a list of gun-unfriendly establishments. Below is a copy of their information regarding Mike's American Grill. I'm not sure which 2 other eateries refused the group.
Great American Restaurants
Great American Restaurants is very hostile toward gun owners. They actually have a policy against allowing the legal carry of handguns in their restaurants. If they see the gun you are REQUIRED to carry openly, they WILL demand you leave. The staff is instructed to tell the manager, and the manager will demand you leave.
Please avoid patronizing any of the Great American Restaurants:
Artie's
Best Buns Bread Company
Carlyle
Costal Flats
Mikes American
Sweetwater Tavern
Silverado
They are also not friendly on the web. Each web page plays music that cannot be turned off via the web page. The only way to kill the awful music is to turn off your speakers, killing anything that you actually WANT to hear. Sad, really sad.
*** Look at this list which the NRA maintains > http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=15
Post by: wmenorr67 on May 23, 2008, 02:31:48 AM
But I at least know which ones to avoid in that neck of the woods.
Post by: K Frame on May 23, 2008, 07:38:59 AM
Post by: The Annoyed Man on May 23, 2008, 09:10:46 AM
I think it's like those myths that you can't use handloads/hollow-points/+P rounds in a self-defense firearm, or defend yourself with a Black Rifle, or whatever.
Myths? The first is law in New Jersey. And when a dead home invader's deadbeat family files a civil suit against you, the sleazy lawyer will hold up an example of the rifle you used to try to convince everyone that you were a horrible person who wanted to kill people with this evil black assault rifle. That's just a fact.
No corpse no lawsuit?
Post by: gunsmith on May 23, 2008, 03:31:58 PM
They proved the politician wrong (that carrying a gun would mean automatic disruption) and though it seems to me that the reporter went out of their way to find folks who were "uncomfortable" the majority of patrons couldn't care less.
Its a dumb law, I go to restaurants and bars all the time and I'm armed all the time (ccw) no one is the wiser.
The protest wasn't for open carry it was to fix the concealed carry law.
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 24, 2008, 04:01:10 AM
Quote
I am really glad VCDL did this, gun rights are civil rights.
If gun owners really thought that, and acted on it, there would be no lame anti-gun laws already.