Author Topic: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery  (Read 4701 times)

MillCreek

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Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« on: April 18, 2010, 10:27:18 PM »
I learned many interesting things this weekend:

Once the battery goes on the Italian touring scooter, it goes quick and with no prior notice.  It worked fine on Friday morning, but it would not generate enough juice to turn over the engine on Friday after work.  The dash lit up and the headlight was on, and the starter ground over a few times, so I knew it was not a bad ignition switch.

You cannot bump start a scooter.  The Continuously Variable Transmission, since it does not have a clutch, does not allow this.

No battery shop or motorcycle dealer downtown carries my scooter battery in stock.  I learned that they carry about 20-25 of the most common motorcycle batteries, but everything else has to be ordered in.  If you have a Harley or a Japanese sport bike, they can fix you right up then and there.

The clamps on a car jumper cables are too big to fit into the scooter battery compartment.  I did not have the necessary tools with me on the scooter to remove the battery.

It is good for your bike to die in a parking garage.  This keeps you dry after you call your wife and have her bring over the motorcycle toolbag so you can remove the battery.

Interstate Batteries is open on Saturday morning.  They had in stock both a MF lead-acid battery for $ 75 and a AGM battery for $ 100 out the door.  I bought the AGM, since it should last longer than the two years that the MF lead-acid battery lasted me.  Even using the battery tender religiously, the battery guys at Interstate thought that two years was what could be expected for battery life.

I will now buy a set of motorcycle jumper cables and a larger toolkit for the scooter. 

I learn something every day.




_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Nick1911

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Re: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2010, 10:32:24 PM »
Well, that sucks.  These things never seem to happen at home.   =|

Glad you got it put back together, though.  Your wallet is a little lighter, but all in all, a good outcome.

Monkeyleg

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Re: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2010, 11:08:08 PM »
You shouldn't jump a scooter or motorcycle battery using a car battery, as there's too many amps.

The only time the battery on my cycle has gone bad has been when I was far from home and far from a dealership.

Nick1911

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Re: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2010, 11:11:07 PM »
You shouldn't jump a scooter or motorcycle battery using a car battery, as there's too many amps.

 ???

I don't understand what you mean.

Okay, a voltage difference would be a problem, but as far as I understand electricity, a load will only use the a specific amount of amps at a specific voltage, regardless of what the source is capable of putting out.

My wall outlet is capable of 15amps, 125vac.  Doesn't hurt my 100 watt light-bulb any to run on it, though.

230RN

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Re: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2010, 11:12:33 PM »
I take it that the headlight stays on whenever the ignition switch is on?

That was the dumbest thing they ever did.  Not that it matters now, but I bet if you had disconnected the headlight it would have started.

Another trickie-wickie I learned is that sometimes just loosening and retightening the screws on the battery clamps helps.  On a car, sometimes a couple of good blows on a screwdriver with the blade carefully seated between the terminals and the clamps re-establishes a good contact and the vehicle will start  -and will charge properly.  Go around that gap between the battery terminals and the clamps.  Only two or three "deformations" in these gaps usually does the trick.

I been drivin' 55 years.  You learn stuff.

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 11:21:34 PM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

MillCreek

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Re: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2010, 11:30:02 PM »
Actually, what I have always heard, and just confirmed on the Net, is that you can jump a motorcycle/scooter with a car.  However, the key is to connect the car battery to the bike battery and let the bike battery charge up a bit over the jumper.  Starting or running the car, while connected to the bike, is a good way to blow out the bike electrics.  I have heard people recommend that you take the keys from the car driver to make sure they don't start the car. 
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Monkeyleg

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Re: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2010, 11:48:37 PM »
Thanks, Millcreek. That's what I meant. The alternator on a car puts out too many amps for the electrical system on a cycle.


Mabs2

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Re: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2010, 11:52:37 PM »
You ride a scooter.
*snicker*
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Nick1911

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Re: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2010, 12:06:29 AM »
I'm still confused.  This does not jive with my basic understanding of electricity.  Can anyone help bridge the gap?

MillCreek

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Re: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2010, 12:28:50 AM »
You ride a scooter.
*snicker*


Yes, a 2004 Aprilia Scarabeo 500 touring scooter.  60 MPG and 92 MPH.  A nice piece of machinery.
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Mabs2

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Re: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2010, 12:49:18 AM »
Quote from: jamisjockey
Sunday it felt a little better, but it was quite irritated from me rubbing it.
Quote from: Mike Irwin
If you watch any of the really early episodes of the Porter Waggoner show she was in (1967) it's very clear that he was well endowed.
Quote from: Ben
Just wanted to give a forum thumbs up to Dick.

CNYCacher

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Re: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2010, 12:58:09 AM »
I'm still confused.  This does not jive with my basic understanding of electricity.  Can anyone help bridge the gap?

I cannot as it does not jive with my understanding of electricity either.

On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
Charles Babbage

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Re: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2010, 01:39:09 AM »
Re charging, sorta simplified. (This presumes a 12 volt scooter battery.  If it's a 6 volt battery, the problem with sticking it on a car's 12 volt  charging system should be obvious.)

The charging circuit on most small engines is not designed to put out the number of amps that an automotive charging circuit does.

It is more of a "trickle charge" situation than in a car, which might charge the car's battery at a rate of perhaps forty or fifty amperes of electrical current.

In order to charge a car battery at that high a rate, the charging circuit must allow the alternator/regulator system to generate a high voltage, sometimes as much as 14-15 (or more) volts.  That's a "hard" 14-15 volts, where the heavy load of a dead battery will not "suck down" the output voltage of the charging circuit.

But the charging circuit of a small engine does not use much regulation, and is designed to put out a max of about 13.6 volts.  This 13.6 volts is exactly the voltage of a freshly charged lead-acid battery.  So when the battery is fully charged, almost no current goes into the scooter battery.  It does not work like a car regulating circuit, where the battery voltage is actually "sensed" and the regulator shuts down the alternator at 13.6 volts.

Now, if the scooter battery is dead or not fully charged, the charging circuit will not generate the "hard" 14-15 volts that a car charging circuit will, but gets "sucked down" (drops the voltage) to a point just above the dead battery's voltage so that it only "trickle-charges" the scooter battery at a low number of amperes, perhaps only 1 or 2 amps.  This charging rate (amps) drops to nearly zero as the battery voltage comes up to that 13.6 volts from being "trickle-charged."

But if you try to jump a dead small engine scooter battery directly to a running car engine, the car will try to pump a lot of current into that battery, and will do so at a high voltage.  The circuitry and the small scooter battery are not robust enough to take that kind of charging rate and voltage.

This is especially true if the car was just started, where its own battery was just drained a little from the starting operation, so the car is trying to recharge the big, heavy car's batttery back up to 13.6 volts.

That is why the advice is to charge the scooter battery at first just from the car battery without the engine running, because the maximum voltage of the car battery will only be 13.6 volts tops, and the charging rate will be low.

On the other hand, if you're "jumping" another car, with its big battery and hefty charging circuits, you can do it with the first car's engine running.

Terry, 230RN
__________
Notes:  
The charging and discharging of lead-acid batteries is highly complex and still subject to much study.  The 13.6 volts of a freshly and fully-charged battery is sort of nominal and depends a lot on temperature, etc.  The same is true of charging voltages in an automobile.  I have seen them go up to around 18 volts while charging a "flat" battery.  

By "hard," by the way, I mean "low impedance," whereas the scooter charging circuit is "high impedance."

When you say "a 12-volt" battery, that's also a nominal sort of thing.  A fully-charged, but "rested" car battery's voltage is actually around 12.6 volts --again, depending on temperature.

The car's alternator can even be tricked to put out  110 volts and there used to be add-ons to allowed you to run 110 volts appliances if they had "universal" motors --like hand drills and saws and the like.  I don't know offhand if they still do.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 02:56:20 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

CNYCacher

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Re: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2010, 02:14:30 AM »
Question for Terry and Monkeyleg:

What would you expect to happen if you applied jumper cables to your tongue?

Serious question.
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
Charles Babbage

230RN

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Re: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2010, 02:22:39 AM »
Not much if it's just connected to the battery.  It might sting a little if the car's engine is running and it's trying to charge the battery. And you'll probably feel the "ripple" from the individual rectifier diodes.

You can just barely feel a 9UV 9 volt battery on your tongue.  You're in more danger from the copper and lead residue on the jumper clamps.

(This presumes that by "apply," you mean just touching them to your tongue.  If you're clamping them on your tongue you have other problems --including possibly of an intellectual nature. :O )

I believe the lower limit for dangerous or deadly voltage is 50 volts per National Fire Code or some official organization, and a lot depends on where the current is flowing, like through the heart or something.

Let's face it, you can get shocked by 50,000 volts or more when you slide out of your car or schlepp across the carpet on a dry winter day, and that's not deadly simply because there is not much energy that's stored or current that flows.

But 110 volts across your two hands from an electrical outlet will probably kill you because that outlet can put out as much as 15 amperes.

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 03:05:02 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

CNYCacher

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Re: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2010, 02:30:55 AM »
But the car battery can put out 800 amps, so why won't your tongue explode?
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
Charles Babbage

230RN

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Re: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2010, 03:30:51 AM »
I believe you are referring to "Cold Cranking Amps."

R = E / I  (Resistance = Voltage ("E") divided by Current ("I"))

That "800 Amps" refers to when the battery is connected to a 0.015 ohm load, like maybe a starter motor with 6-gauge windings and connected by an 000 gauge cable to the battery, all at whatever temperature they measure those cold cranking amps at, and all while cranking on the engine.  It's just a figure of merit.

Answer:  It might be able to put out 800 amps, but not through your tongue, any more than it would put 800 amps through your taillights.


And why not?

I = E / R  (Current ("I") equals Voltage ("E") divided by Resistance)

I just measured my tongue's electrical resistance.  It is about 200K ohms.  The current that would flow through it if connected to a 12 volt battery would be 60 microamps.  

'Course, I was just eating saltines and milk, so that 200K ohms might be a little low.

Terry, 230RN

Corrections shown in red.  I misread a new meter. 



« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 01:33:56 PM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

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Re: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2010, 08:11:19 AM »
FYI: Prevention is the best way to keep a motorcycle battery in good shape. Get one of these, they should be available locally for $20-30. Install the pigtails on your battery and leave them someplace easy to access, and plug in the charger if you plan on leaving it for more than a day. My bike is a 2003, and it still has the original battery. My lawn tractor finally needs a new battery this year, I had to jump it last weekend. It was last replaced in '99.
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MillCreek

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Re: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2010, 08:15:13 AM »
FYI: Prevention is the best way to keep a motorcycle battery in good shape. Get one of these, they should be available locally for $20-30. Install the pigtails on your battery and leave them someplace easy to access, and plug in the charger if you plan on leaving it for more than a day. My bike is a 2003, and it still has the original battery. My lawn tractor finally needs a new battery this year, I had to jump it last weekend. It was last replaced in '99.

This is what puzzled me so with the scooter battery dying after just two years.  I am meticulous about plugging all my bikes, every day, into a Deltran battery tender.  I guess I just got unlucky.
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

CNYCacher

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Re: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2010, 08:48:03 AM »
I just measured my tongue's electrical resistance.  It is about 200 ohms.  The current that would flow through it if connected to a 12 volt battery would be 60 milliamps, 0.060 amperes.  That works out to less than 3/4 Watt, and there ain't much heating power in 3/4 Watt.

What's your body's electrical R from hand to hand with dry skin?
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
Charles Babbage

sanman

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Re: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2010, 09:32:22 AM »
Not much if it's just connected to the battery.  It might sting a little if the car's engine is running and it's trying to charge the battery. And you'll probably feel the "ripple" from the individual rectifier diodes.

You can just barely feel a 9UV 9 volt battery on your tongue.  You're in more danger from the copper and lead residue on the jumper clamps.

(This presumes that by "apply," you mean just touching them to your tongue.  If you're clamping them on your tongue you have other problems --including possibly of an intellectual nature. :O )

I believe the lower limit for dangerous or deadly voltage is 50 volts per National Fire Code or some official organization, and a lot depends on where the current is flowing, like through the heart or something.

Let's face it, you can get shocked by 50,000 volts or more when you slide out of your car or schlepp across the carpet on a dry winter day, and that's not deadly simply because there is not much energy that's stored or current that flows.

But 110 volts across your two hands from an electrical outlet will probably kill you because that outlet can put out as much as 15 amperes.

Terry, 230RN

If the 110 (120) volts from an electrical outlet was that bad, I'd be dead many times over...at least half a dozen just this past winter while remodeling my house. Replacing/adding outlets hot means you sometimes get a little bite. Hurts more when you jerk your hand away and hit something hard like a piece of furniture than the shock does.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2010, 09:34:45 AM »
or the fall from the ladder.  you still make a funny noise when you do it  >:D
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2010, 09:45:51 AM »
Sanman, how many of those hits were across your body, i.e. from one hand touching the neutral or a ground and the other hand touching the hot, as opposed to from one side of your hand to the other (such as if you bumped the hot while the rest of your hand was touching the box or the neutral or ground wire)?

Will every across the body shock kill you?  No.  But I can guarantee that 110 volts *IS* lethal in a lot of cases.  It's just a matter of how the current flows through your body
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2010, 09:54:47 AM »
yea  through the chest cavity is bad.  i was lying under a sink in a puddle with the top of my head pressed against a copper pipe when the guy i was working with turned on the switch to the disposal   the bare ends of which were under me.  the shock came in my wet back and out the top of my head  saw lights and convulsed good enough to break a crown. they say i made a yelp like a beagle and had a funny look on my face.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Monkeyleg

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Re: Stranded due to a dead scooter battery
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2010, 10:02:37 AM »
Having never put battery cables on my tongue, I'm afraid I can't answer that question. ;)

The power supplies for large photographic electronic flash units have capacitors that are 5,000 watt-seconds. Many years back another photographer I worked with grabbed a pack that had a capacitor shorting out to the metal case of the pack. He was just standing there with his eyes bugged out until one of us realized what was going on and knocked the power pack out of his hands with a wooden broom stick.



--Watt-seconds, not volts--
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 03:01:54 PM by Monkeyleg »