Author Topic: I Can Has Incorporation  (Read 24238 times)

vaskidmark

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Re: Hey, El Tejon I've got a McDonald v Chicago Question
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2010, 09:16:59 PM »
No.  But yes.    =D

Technically, they didn't even decide the constitutionality of the Chicago ban (AFAIK, not done yet).  So no, they did not officially proclaim strict scrutiny.

BUT!

The opinion of the Court is the right to have a gun for self-defense in the home is a fundamental constitutional right.  In legal speak, that's all but code for strict scrutiny.  They want a third case to officially proclaim it, but if your lawyer was good, he'd be arguing the Court heavily implied that strict scrutiny should be applied.

Go read Alito's words again.  Self defense in the home is but one of the exercises of the right.  Depending on who you argue it to, Alito has expanded and opened Heller to the point that carry in DC is going to be permitted.

His opinion is rife with these little nuggets.  I'm listing them as I re-read and have over a dozen so far and I'm still not finished with the main opinion, let alone the concurrences.

So just how do plurality opinions operate - are all the different points of view operational?  If not, which ones are?

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Scout26

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Re: Hey, El Tejon I've got a McDonald v Chicago Question
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2010, 09:23:00 PM »

So just how do plurality opinions operate - are all the different points of view operational?  If not, which ones are?

stay safe.

I saw that they break it down as to who concurs on what parts of the main opinion.  But just because Thomas said "I think it's incorporated under P&I" does not make it so.   Lawyers can use his concurrence for their future briefs, but Roberts slammed the door pretty hard on P&I, as in "It's dead, and it's gonna be dead as long as I'm CJ, if not longer". 
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drewtam

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Re: I Can Has Incorporation
« Reply #52 on: June 28, 2010, 11:31:04 PM »
I am not aware of any legal opinions of the founders indicating concealed carry is a right. Open carry, yes, concealed carry, no. If you know of such, please enlighten me.

As such, I don't consider concealed carry as part of the 2nd. Rather, it is an expansion of civil liberties.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: I Can Has Incorporation
« Reply #53 on: June 29, 2010, 12:37:22 AM »
I am not aware of any legal opinions of the founders indicating concealed carry is a right. Open carry, yes, concealed carry, no. If you know of such, please enlighten me.

As such, I don't consider concealed carry as part of the 2nd. Rather, it is an expansion of civil liberties.


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Ryan in Maine

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Re: I Can Has Incorporation
« Reply #54 on: June 29, 2010, 01:03:49 AM »
I don't consider left-handed carry part of the 2nd Amendment.

Also, I don't think the Founding Fathers would want anyone carrying a plastic gun. No way is that part of the 2nd Amendment. Get yourself a gun made of steel if you want to exercise your rights.

Monkeyleg

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Re: I Can Has Incorporation
« Reply #55 on: June 29, 2010, 01:07:10 AM »
Quote
I am not aware of any legal opinions of the founders indicating concealed carry is a right. Open carry, yes, concealed carry, no. If you know of such, please enlighten me.

As such, I don't consider concealed carry as part of the 2nd. Rather, it is an expansion of civil liberties.

Actually, Jefferson argued for concealed carry to be part of the 2nd, but only if the gun was in the left pocket.

Matthew Carberry

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Re: I Can Has Incorporation
« Reply #56 on: June 29, 2010, 02:44:57 AM »
The point being that "bear" doesn't necessarily mean "in the way we'd like right away", it means some form of legal bearing. 

As long as we have "bear" as fundamental to the right we will eventually get reasonable (not hyper expensive or "may issue") concealed carry in places that don't have it.  What's the alternative for some of the anti-type states and towns?  Open carry in Times Square?  On the main drag of Waikiki?
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Re: I Can Has Incorporation
« Reply #57 on: June 29, 2010, 02:52:25 AM »
^^^ I called up my NYPD brother to brag that I'll be carrying in NYC in 5 years or less. God willing of course.
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Re: I Can Has Incorporation
« Reply #58 on: June 29, 2010, 06:21:48 AM »
Anything from the Second Amendment Foundation and Gura yet?.....I'm interested in their take on the ruling, and Michael Bane's website hasn't posted anything from them yet.....

Can't wait until SAF takes on NYC's Sullivan Law.....or even Texas's $140 CHL fee....may end up redefining CCW law nationwide....
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Re: I Can Has Incorporation
« Reply #59 on: June 29, 2010, 07:49:16 AM »
I am not aware of any legal opinions of the founders indicating concealed carry is a right. Open carry, yes, concealed carry, no. If you know of such, please enlighten me.

As such, I don't consider concealed carry as part of the 2nd. Rather, it is an expansion of civil liberties.

I don't see how the manner one bears arms in any way alters the Right or creates a new and separate Right/privilege to be regulated differently.

Bear arms means any way you choose.  Open, concealed, on your back, in your backpack, tucked in a boot, shoved down your pants, etc.  The manner if bearing arms is totally irrelevant.

drewtam

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Re: I Can Has Incorporation
« Reply #60 on: June 29, 2010, 08:51:24 AM »
Crack jokes all you want, but I recall some of the constitutional commentators at the time specifically mentioning that laws forbidding concealed carry were reasonable. Give me a couple days to try and dig up where it was at.
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Re: I Can Has Incorporation
« Reply #61 on: June 29, 2010, 09:35:02 AM »
Crack jokes all you want, but I recall some of the constitutional commentators at the time specifically mentioning that laws forbidding concealed carry were reasonable. Give me a couple days to try and dig up where it was at.

I've heard constitutional law professors say the 2nd Amendment applies solely to the National Guard. 
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longeyes

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Re: I Can Has Incorporation
« Reply #62 on: June 29, 2010, 12:10:25 PM »
The Second Amendment is not about technicalities, it is about an inherent right of free men and responsible citizens.  The underlying problem is the lack of freedom in general and the concomitant lack of responsibility.
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Re: I Can Has Incorporation
« Reply #63 on: June 29, 2010, 12:17:53 PM »
The constitution says nothing about "responsble citizens". It is a right based on our humanity. A civil right to ensure the citizens have the tools (arms) to fight an oppressive government (ala George III). CCW and Self Defense are products of the founders intent as well.
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longeyes

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Re: I Can Has Incorporation
« Reply #64 on: June 29, 2010, 01:19:43 PM »
I'm talking about the 2A in light of social realities.  What I'm saying is that the debates going on would not be going on if we had free men/women and responsible citizens.  I take your point; I'm making a different one.  The Founders' view of humanity is humanity enlightened.  Unenlightened humanity has no interest in freedom, for themselves or others, and no sense of the boundaries of human conduct.
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Desertdog

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Re: I Can Has Incorporation
« Reply #65 on: June 29, 2010, 02:14:15 PM »
People seem to forget the Declaration of Independence;

                             First sentence;

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

                            Second sentence;

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,[71] that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Declaration of Independence text continues at;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_Independence#Text

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Re: I Can Has Incorporation
« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2010, 03:04:08 PM »
I am not aware of any legal opinions of the founders indicating concealed carry is a right. Open carry, yes, concealed carry, no. If you know of such, please enlighten me.

As such, I don't consider concealed carry as part of the 2nd. Rather, it is an expansion of civil liberties.

Just because carrying a firearm openly was commonplace in those days, tell me how the 2A differentiates between open carry and concealed carry, car carry, castle doctrine, or anything else.
Either it says that you have the right to keep and bear arms, or it doesn't. 
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Hawkmoon

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Re: I Can Has Incorporation
« Reply #67 on: June 29, 2010, 03:09:31 PM »
I am not aware of any legal opinions of the founders indicating concealed carry is a right. Open carry, yes, concealed carry, no. If you know of such, please enlighten me.

As such, I don't consider concealed carry as part of the 2nd. Rather, it is an expansion of civil liberties.

Actually, the 2A does not specify any mode of carry. All it says is that we have a right to carry ("bear").

Ohio may be a good example of how that works. Ohio did not, until a very few years ago, allow for concealed carry. And their police didn't much like open carry, so they would arrest open carriers under the guise of "disturbing the peace."

But the Ohio state constitution said that the citizens have a right to bear arms. So a case went to the Ohio Supreme Court, which correctly ruled that it was unconstitutional to totally prohibit carry. Since there were laws prohibiting concealed carry, that meant that open carry MUST be legal under the (state) constitution.

With that having been established, Ohioans began holding "carry-ins," rallies at which large numbers of people would show up ... all openly wearing sidearms. The legislature caved, and enacted provisions for lawful concealed carry.

In short: If the Constitution says that bearing arms is a right, then one way or another they HAVE to allow you to bear arms. The "only" point at issue now is how much can they restrict carry before the restrictions become unreasonable. Ohio could have gone exactly the opposite direction, in total conformity with the opinion of their Supreme Court. They could have just said, 'Okay, concealed carry is fine but no more open carry."
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 03:14:02 PM by Hawkmoon »
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longeyes

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Re: I Can Has Incorporation
« Reply #68 on: June 29, 2010, 03:26:04 PM »
Lest we get too euphoric too soon...

from the Wall St. Journal, today:

JUNE 29, 2010
Five Gun Salute

The High Court's four liberals are holding out to overturn Heller.

Judicial liberals have been discovering the virtues of legal precedent now that conservatives are finally winning a few cases at the Supreme Court, but in yesterday's major gun rights case that all went out the window. The four liberal Justices rejected a 2008 landmark precedent as well as one of their own bedrock Constitutional principles.

That's the most surprising news in yesterday's 5-4 decision in McDonald v. Chicago, which ruled that the Second Amendment protects the same Constitutional right in the states as it does in Washington, D.C. The decision is the logical extension of 2008's District of Columbia v. Heller, which ruled for the first time that the Second Amendment was an individual right like the rest of the Bill of Rights. In McDonald, the Justices established that this right also applies to the states via the Fourteenth Amendment and cast doubt on a Chicago ordinance banning handguns.

Most Court followers had expected the decision to "incorporate" the Second Amendment to the states to be relatively easy and perhaps draw a large majority. Over nearly a century of cases, the High Court has extended to the states most of the rest of the Bill of Rights including part or all of the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Eighth Amendments. It would be passing strange for the Second Amendment to be the lone outlier.

All the more so given that Justice Samuel Alito's plurality opinion used "substantive due process" under the Fourteenth Amendment to justify the decision. This is the logic that liberals have long used to apply the other Bill of Rights to the states, and objections to it have most often come from conservatives. Justice Antonin Scalia mentioned his own "misgivings about Substantive Due Process" as a matter of original Constitutional interpretation in his concurring opinion yesterday. But he said he "acquiesced" in this decision "'because it is both long established and narrowly limited.'"

Justice Alito's majority opinion was indeed careful to define the reach of substantive due process, saying that it should apply only to those rights that are "fundamental to our scheme of ordered liberty." Heller had decided that basic question, the Justice wrote, and thus to decide not to apply it to the states would "treat the right recognized in Heller as a second-class right, subject to an entirely different body of rules than the other Bill of Rights guarantees that we have held to be incorporated into the Due Process Clause." This reasoning was endorsed by Justices Scalia, Anthony Kennedy and Chief Justice John Roberts.

Justice Clarence Thomas joined the majority ruling but did so using what he called a "more straightforward path" to incorporation, using a long-dormant part of the Fourteenth Amendment known as the Privileges or Immunities Clause. The Supreme Court had made that clause all but a dead letter with The Slaughter-House cases of 1873, though Justice Alito acknowledged that "many legal scholars dispute the correctness" of that decision. He's referring in particular to libertarians who want to revive the Privileges or Immunities Clause to enforce property rights and other protections against state regulation.

The majority opinion does leave room for some state and local gun regulation. And the liberals could have joined the majority to help shape the opinion and allow for even more state and local latitude. So it's striking that they instead came out in full-throated dissent and refused to accept even the basic finding in Heller.


Justice Stephen Breyer, joined by Sonia Sotomayor and Ruth Bader Ginsburg, even did a rare turn as a states' rights advocate, noting that incorporation will curtail the ability of states to craft their own gun laws. This problem doesn't seem to bother Justice Breyer or the other liberals when they overturn state laws based on a "right to privacy" that, unlike the Second Amendment, is mentioned nowhere in the text of the Constitution.

All of this suggests that the liberals have decided to bide their time and wait for a fifth vote so they can overturn both Heller and McDonald. This means that the matter of Second Amendment rights is far from settled, and the National Rifle Association and other advocates had better keep their legal guard up.

Elena Kagan may soon replace John Paul Stevens on the Court, and it's notable that Justice Stevens used his final opinion to issue a blistering attack on the Constitutional "orginalism" that informs some of today's conservative Justices. Mr. Scalia fired back in delightfully brutal fashion, and if you want to understand the Court's current philosophical divide, you could do worse than to read all of the opinions in McDonald.

As for Ms. Kagan and gun rights, as a clerk to former Justice Thurgood Marshall, she declared herself "not sympathetic" to a Second Amendment case similar to the issue in Heller. As an aide in the Clinton White House, she advocated aggressive gun control regulations. Despite yesterday's welcome extension of gun rights to the states, the liberal effort to make the Second Amendment a second-rate right is a long way from over.

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RevDisk

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Re: I Can Has Incorporation
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2010, 01:11:16 PM »
All of this suggests that the liberals have decided to bide their time and wait for a fifth vote so they can overturn both Heller and McDonald. This means that the matter of Second Amendment rights is far from settled, and the National Rifle Association and other advocates had better keep their legal guard up.

Heh.  Accept by the time that happens...  A lot more folks will be owning firearms. 

What the hell do the Four think?   That magically they can wave a magic opinion and make all of the guns instantly disappear?
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: I Can Has Incorporation
« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2010, 01:17:01 PM »
Heh.  Accept by the time that happens...  A lot more folks will be owning firearms. 

What the hell do the Four think?   That magically they can wave a magic opinion and make all of the guns instantly disappear?

2A = Army and NG.

Turn in your guns now, please.

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RevDisk

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Re: I Can Has Incorporation
« Reply #71 on: July 02, 2010, 01:32:20 PM »
2A = Army and NG.

Turn in your guns now, please.

Kthxbai.

Yea, except what happens when the gun owners are the overwhelming majority of the population?  Can't exactly throw us all in jail for saying "Uhm, no."
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Balog

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Re: I Can Has Incorporation
« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2010, 01:35:12 PM »
I don't always think that much of the services, but even I doubt the majority of grunts would take orders to go in and confiscate all guns.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: I Can Has Incorporation
« Reply #73 on: July 02, 2010, 01:40:10 PM »
Yea, except what happens when the gun owners are the overwhelming majority of the population?  Can't exactly throw us all in jail for saying "Uhm, no."

Not the case now.

There's 4 million NRA members.

There's ~100 million guns in the US, last I heard.  Considering many gun owning households have multiple guns in them, I'd say that probably there are a mere 20 million gun owners in the US.  Less than 10% of the population.

Fewer gun owners than there are illegal aliens, probably.  "They" say there are between 12 and 20 million illegals in the US, but I think it peaked around 25 million a few years ago.

We say "deport the illegals" every chance we can.  They say it's impossible.

Why shouldn't they think they can get 20 million (or fewer) gun owners?

I'm still fairly convinced that most gun owners (99.97%, or about 19,994,000 gun owners of that 20 million) would roll over and turn in their guns, or just hide them "for when they need 'em."  The remaining 6000 would be quickly demonized and criminalized, either burnt dead in standoffs with flashbangs and tear gas, or shot dead, or captured.

If they can score the legal win, they will be able to implement because police will carry it out.
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Balog

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Re: I Can Has Incorporation
« Reply #74 on: July 02, 2010, 01:49:59 PM »
Last estimates I saw were 80 million gun owners.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.