Habersham County Sheriffs: killing pastors and burning babies

[Balog]

We've talked about these clowns before when they murdered an unarmed pastor. Be sure to read the comments on Preacherman's blog. Use of pyrotechnics is contraindicated in cases where children are present. Either the cops didn't bother to recon to find out if the kid was there, or they just didn't care. Second link is a good example of the widespread rot in LEO circles. I've seen less callous indifference to the death and suffering of innocents from my fellow infantry Marines raiding suspected terrorist's houses in Iraq. Amazing how cops are racking up more collateral damage in the War on the public Some Drugs than we did fighting insurgents. As always, feeding the troll will only encourage him so let's try to ignore it shall we?

http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2014/06/child-abuse-under-color-of-law.html

http://forums.officer.com/t194085/

Behold the war on drugs in all its glory.

[Balog]

Good commentary on the subject. I've bolded the relevant part.

Fact: The object of the warrant was not even home.

Fact: NO pre raid survielence.

Fact: Relied only on word of CI and then went in blazing.

Fact: Later arrested the subject (apparently without a raid) at another location.

Fact: This is the same department that shot that baptist preacher. I think the family in that civil suit got over $2 million.


You know why gun owners, even gun owners who have general admiration of the police and military, get so pissed about these stories?

Its because we know that if the Liberals get their way, these sort of raids will be coming to our houses because of the guns in our safes. And the "he had guns" justification will be used, as the Sheriff did here with the "zomg METH!" thing, to call GUN OWNERS "domestic terrorists" and justify killing our kids and families.

I continue to think dynamic raids are over used. If your target has so little contraband that it could be flushed, then it is not a big enough bust to justify the risk of harm to innocent occupants, neighbors and the officers themselves arising out of a raid like this.

Here's the deal, man. Whether you call them human shields or, you know, just "children." These kiddos are not legally or morally responsible for their residence being targeted.

Ergo, it becomes a question of the magnitude of the societal harm on on the one hand (drug dealing, MP3 downloads, owning a magazine with 8 rounds instead of 7), being weighed against the societal harm of wounding and killing innocents, especially children, as mitigated by whatever safeguards can be implemented.

I see this as a typical question of proportionality.

Should we plan on some percentage of wounded or dead infants in our enforcement of:

1. Traffic tickets?
2. Kids downloading MP3s?
3. Teens having a party in a field.
4. Owning guns with the wrong feature?
5. Drug using?
6. Drug dealing?


etc., etc.

You seem to be suggesting that so long as "X" is against the law, killing children of the persons ACCUSED of (or in the same house with persons doing or allegedly doing) "X" constitute acceptable breakage. Its easy to justify it as "*expletive deleted*ck em, kids of drug dealers" when its an activity you don't like, but go on facebook sometime and see what people think of gun owners and you might be shocked to find there's a sizeable part of the country that would not weep if your kiddos were blown up by a flashbang if you were accused of having too large of a ammunition feeding device.

[dogmush]

Just to make it worse for gun owners,  It appears from the sheriff's statement that he got the no-knock treatment not because of the meth, but because he had an AK.

Because of recent history with the individual involved in the alleged drug sales and knowledge of weapons in the residence, the special agent seeking the search warrant requested a "no-knock" warrant, Terrell said

It's very likely that no member of APS will have a warrant served on them in the future.  But if you do, rest assured this is how the police will come through your door.  I'd bet even cursory recon of any of us would show the ownership of weapons.

[Balog]

Just to make it worse for gun owners,  It appears from the sheriff's statement that he got the no-knock treatment not because of the meth, but because he had an AK.

It's very likely that no member of APS will have a warrant served on them in the future.  But if you do, rest assured this is how the police will come through your door.  I'd bet even cursory recon of any of us would show the ownership of weapons.

Ayup. And given the rising popularity of SWATing as a revenge/political intimidation tactic, you can't just parrot the silly "don't do the crime" lines.

Kind of sad when "We will send the cops to your house" is one of the best and most easily achievable threats one can make against a person.

[roo_ster]

Looks like HCSO protected and served the *expletive deleted*it out of that kid. 

I really must question the level of danger they thought they would encounter, given the lack of effective recon of the target.  

I question a whole lot more, but I can see the way this is trending.

[Balog]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/05/30/drug-task-force-that-burned-a-toddler-this-week-also-killed-an-innocent-pastor-in-2009/?tid=pm_opinions_pop

[onions!]

I wonder how difficult it would be to limit the insurance coverages available to law enforcement agencys?
If departments had to pay crazy money in civil suits out of their budgets then maybe it would limit the irresponsible behavior?And kick the bad apples to the unemployement line.

[dogmush]

I have often wondered......

Hardening a house to the extent that it would kill any team coming through the door would be trivially easy.  Especially if you are already committing felonies.  I know criminals tend to be a few rounds short of a full magazine, but how is it no one has done this yet?

Don't get me wrong, I don't wish death on these LEO's, even as I fervently wish for them to stop no-knocks, but eventually they are going to get to someone smarter then the average bear, or a vet that the VA has screwed for so long he got his own pills.

[Balog]

I wonder how difficult it would be to limit the insurance coverages available to law enforcement agencys?
If departments had to pay crazy money in civil suits out of their budgets then maybe it would limit the irresponsible behavior?And kick the bad apples to the unemployement line.

They'd just crank up the civil asset forfeiture and speed trap ticket writing. Gotta put the fuel in that MRAP somehow.

I have often wondered......

Hardening a house to the extent that it would kill any team coming through the door would be trivially easy.  Especially if you are already committing felonies.  I know criminals tend to be a few rounds short of a full magazine, but how is it no one has done this yet?

Don't get me wrong, I don't wish death on these LEO's, even as I fervently wish for them to stop no-knocks, but eventually they are going to get to someone smarter then the average bear, or a vet that the VA has screwed for so long he got his own pills.

The vast majority of the criminals to get caught are the really stupid and lazy ones. The smart ones who would do that rarely make it into search warrants in the first place.

[onions!]

They'd just crank up the civil asset forfeiture and speed trap ticket writing. Gotta put the fuel in that MRAP somehow.

Exactly my point.If enough sheeple(and I use that not because they don't care but that they don't know about the problem(and how often do you get to use sheeple in a sentence anyways? :) ))were to be effected because a municipality were to have to start pinching the populace to cover bad/overly aggressive/questionable policework,I believe that the non-popo overlords would have to step in.

Let the local politicals put a proposal worth millions on the ballot.Let those who want the money defend their positions in a public forum.The press would have a field day!Let the Chief go to bat for his department.Personal responsibility extended to those in authority?OMG!It would be awesome!

A precedent that limits lawsuits as a result?No wouldn't/couldn't that be a bad thing?

 

[brimic]

I'll withhold judgement until I hear CSD's side of the story.

[Balog]

I'll withhold judgement until I hear CSD's side of the story.

 

Lay down in the pack n play with dogs, get a grenade in the face.

Wait, how does that go again?

Also note that no drugs, weapons, paraphanelia, or large amounts of cash were found. Dude they wanted wasn't even there, and was later arrested without incident at another house.

[tokugawa]

It is extremely difficult to reform an organization with a publicly paid for union, a lot of guns, the power to kill and get away with it, and a intelligence branch, combined with the ability and intent to intimidate the public and the politicians who may want change-
 Cops in CA were going to folk's houses who were trying to restrain the obscenely generous retirement benefits for the public unions, in order to intimidate them.

 If the militarization of the cops continues much longer, and the intelligence/surveillance continues, the cops, Federal ,State and Local, will BE the government.   THEY will be telling our "representatives", how high to jump.

[onions!]

It is extremely difficult to reform an organization with a publicly paid for union, a lot of guns, the power to kill and get away with it, and a intelligence branch, combined with the ability and intent to intimidate the public and the politicians who may want change-
 Cops in CA were going to folk's houses who were trying to restrain the obscenely generous retirement benefits for the public unions, in order to intimidate them.

 If the militarization of the cops continues much longer, and the intelligence/surveillance continues, the cops, Federal ,State and Local, will BE the government.   THEY will be telling our "representatives", how high to jump.

Yes,I understand.That said,I believe that it could happen,fairly easily(I have no idea how easily I confess.) in the smaller cities such as my own(<600,000 in the urban area).
I guess my point is that it is perhaps a small way to initiate a chain reaction.Not unlike the CCW and gay marriage movements.Different issues but they started small and built traction.
Just a thought.

[HankB]

In his Cop Talk column in the July/August 2014 American Handgunner magazine, Massad Ayoob deals with a question from a reader who opines that police forces are getting overly aggressive and militaristic.

Ayoob articulately explains his position and concludes that "No, I don't think America's police forces 'have become too aggressive, too militaristic, and too free with their gunfire.' "

(He was also quite articulate some years back in minimizing the blame accrued to the NYC stakeout squad which unloaded 41 rounds on an unarmed innocent.)

Generally speaking, an awful lot of what he writes is (or should be) common sense, and his insights on court cases should be required reading for anyone who has or carries a gun. But when it comes to defending the actions of officers that so many people find questionable, the reaction he elicits is often  . . . and from what I've read, he gets a little testy and retreats to authority ("I'm the expert and you're not! You can have an opinion when you're as smart as I am!") when someone disagrees.

[dogmush]

So I was scanning that LEO forum Balog linked and found this:

Bad that it turned out this way,still better than a team walking up to the door,announcing themselves and ripped apart by gun fire.

I disagree.  Every LEO in this country, at one point or another, decided to put their life on the line to maintain law and order. A conscious decision. So even if this false dichotomy was true (those were the only possible solutions) it would be better for the team (who chose to defend the innocent) to die then to harm the innocent.

But what do I know, I only look at these problems from the mind of an infantryman. We aren't trained to accept as much Collateral Damage as LEO's.


*ETA:  I know the US Military has done some pretty horrible things in it's history, including to American citizens.  We're not perfect.  But we do a decent job of looking back and saying "that's *expletive deleted*ed up.  We need to not do that anymore."  As opposed to: "Yep that went by the book, shame about the kid.  Miller Time!"

[Perd Hapley]

.

[Ben]

So I was scanning that LEO forum Balog linked and found this:

I disagree.  Every LEO in this country, at one point or another, decided to put their life on the line to maintain law and order. A conscious decision. So even if this false dichotomy was true (those were the only possible solutions) it would be better for the team (who chose to defend the innocent) to die then to harm the innocent.

But what do I know, I only look at these problems from the mind of an infantryman. We aren't trained to accept as much Collateral Damage as LEO's.


*ETA:  I know the US Military has done some pretty horrible things in it's history, including to American citizens.  We're not perfect.  But we do a decent job of looking back and saying "that's *expletive deleted*ed up.  We need to not do that anymore."  As opposed to: "Yep that went by the book, shame about the kid.  Miller Time!"

Yeah, I saw that same comment a few hours ago. It bugged the heck out of me and I wrote a pretty long reply that I ended up deleting because I ended up getting not very APS. The whole "whatever it takes as long as you can go home at the end of your shift" philosophy seems to be getting all too prevalent. "Whatever it takes" could just as easily be taking a step back and not doing something RTFN. I'm getting to where I'd like to see a bit more inaction and less action. Most especially with warrants.

[RoadKingLarry]

I have often wondered......

Hardening a house to the extent that it would kill any team coming through the door would be trivially easy.  Especially if you are already committing felonies.  I know criminals tend to be a few rounds short of a full magazine, but how is it no one has done this yet?

Don't get me wrong, I don't wish death on these LEO's, even as I fervently wish for them to stop no-knocks, but eventually they are going to get to someone smarter then the average bear, or a vet that the VA has screwed for so long he got his own pills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvaEJzoaYZk

[roo_ster]

This just depresses the heck out of me.  It will not end well.  Power only respects greater power so do not expect to see willing reform.  Reform will occur in the same way the current problem did...through the willing  exercise of violence.

That assumes there is any great call for reform.  We have learned that diversity means less trust and social capital.  Regular folk might weigh the costs of leo accretion of authority vs the threat of a "vibrant" culture and figure half civilized leos are the lesser evil.

[AJ Dual]

I'f I'm ever so lucky as to have a house built for me to spec, I think the entryways will have double locking doors/mantrap areas etc. 

[zxcvbob]

It is extremely difficult to reform an organization with a publicly paid for union, a lot of guns, the power to kill and get away with it, and a intelligence branch, combined with the ability and intent to intimidate the public and the politicians who may want change-
 Cops in CA were going to folk's houses who were trying to restrain the obscenely generous retirement benefits for the public unions, in order to intimidate them.

 If the militarization of the cops continues much longer, and the intelligence/surveillance continues, the cops, Federal ,State and Local, will BE the government.   THEY will be telling our "representatives", how high to jump.

Victims need to hire a private organization with the same powers.  I bet there are some that would do this job for cheap or even pro bono.

[brimic]

I'f I'm ever so lucky as to have a house built for me to spec, I think the entryways will have double locking doors/mantrap areas etc. 

You've thought of that too?
Will your entryways have a decontamination station that sprays napalm on offending organisms?

[AJ Dual]

You've thought of that too?
Will your entryways have a decontamination station that sprays napalm on offending organisms?

Drop shaft, 100 feet deep. Chipper shredder at the bottom.

[Tallpine]

Once again, I have nothing polite or acceptable to say