Habersham County Sheriffs: killing pastors and burning babies

[dogmush]

I'f I'm ever so lucky as to have a house built for me to spec, I think the entryways will have double locking doors/mantrap areas etc. 

Yeah.........I once told my wife she had no idea how much of a moderating influence on me she really was.

Given my head, my house would absolutely have a mid sized entry room that could be sealed remotely.  Countermeasures optional although these look like fun, and are more legal then claymores.

And while I have no interest in getting into the undocumented pharmacy industry, If I was, all transactions would be made in the front room of the house, and all countermeasures would be concealed.  Any customers would NOT be shown, nor would any hints be made, of weapons, defense in depth, hardened doors windows and walls, secondary egress routes, and incendiary devices.  jus' saying

[KD5NRH]

I really must question the level of danger they thought they would encounter, given the lack of effective recon of the target.

This; if your concern is actually "officer safety," then the first action is to find out, first hand and in detail, exactly what you're sending them into.  The second action is to look at alternatives, like arresting the guy outside the house when he doesn't have access to his evil assault rifle, then search the house properly once he's out of the picture.

This was a bunch of punks playing with their tacticool toys.

[KD5NRH]

*ETA:  I know the US Military has done some pretty horrible things in it's history, including to American citizens.  We're not perfect.  But we do a decent job of looking back and saying "that's *expletive deleted*ed up.  We need to not do that anymore."  As opposed to: "Yep that went by the book, shame about the kid.  Miller Time!"

More to the point, a soldier doesn't have the option of saying "No, I won't follow that order.  You know where to mail my final paycheck."  I've left some good paying jobs and refused others because I considered their "book" to be immoral.  The same option is open to these guys, and the fact they don't take it shows that they don't feel too strongly that the book needs a serious rewrite.

[brimic]

Given my head, my house would absolutely have a mid sized entry room that could be sealed remotely.  Countermeasures optional although these look like fun, and are more legal then claymores.

If you have the JBTs peace officers knocking down on your door, 'legal' and illegal'  become quaint notions.

[dogmush]

If you have the JBTs peace officers knocking down on your door, 'legal' and illegal'  become quaint notions.

yes but if actually is a criminal home invasion than the notions are important.

[brimic]

yes but if actually is a criminal home invasion than the notions are important.

True, even though it still shouldn't matter.

[fifth_column]

So I was scanning that LEO forum Balog linked and found this:

I disagree.  Every LEO in this country, at one point or another, decided to put their life on the line to maintain law and order. A conscious decision. So even if this false dichotomy was true (those were the only possible solutions) it would be better for the team (who chose to defend the innocent) to die then to harm the innocent.

But what do I know, I only look at these problems from the mind of an infantryman. We aren't trained to accept as much Collateral Damage as LEO's.


*ETA:  I know the US Military has done some pretty horrible things in it's history, including to American citizens.  We're not perfect.  But we do a decent job of looking back and saying "that's *expletive deleted*ed up.  We need to not do that anymore."  As opposed to: "Yep that went by the book, shame about the kid.  Miller Time!"

I agree with your statement.  I just want to point out that the mission of law enforcement in this country is no longer "maintaining law and order."  Their mission is control and subjugation.  I still give individual officers the benefit of doubt regarding their motivations, however I no longer have any doubt regarding the motivations of the various "law" organizations in our occupied country.

[brimic]

I agree with your statement.  I just want to point out that the mission of law enforcement in this country is no longer "maintaining law and order."  Their mission is control and subjugation.  I still give individual officers the benefit of doubt regarding their motivations, however I no longer have any doubt regarding the motivations of the various "law" organizations in our occupied country.

That part of history that keeps repeating itself- we are almost there.

[fifth_column]

http://forums.officer.com/t194085/

Behold the war on drugs in all its glory.

I just got to reading some of the posts at the link above.  Horribly depressing.  Most of the posters have an attitude of "Screw 'em!  The scumbag meth dealer injured that child, not the grenade!"  I weep for our country.  The basest, least humane, and most cruel members of society are charged with "protecting" our citizens.

[Balog]

Here's a good summary I saw posted. Only point missing is that they guy they were trying to catch in the raid was not present. Top notch work.

1) CI never entered the house.
2) CI stated that there was one drug deal outside the house and weapons at the house.
3) SWAT raid finds no drugs, weapons, or money at the house.
4) Police arrest a relative of the family the next day at separate location with $50 of drugs.
5) Police most likely will have killed a baby of a family that had nothing to do with drug dealing.

[Balog]

This is a picture of Habersham County Sherriff Joey Terrell. It is a still capture from an interview he was doing in which he adamantly defended his officers conduct and expressed remorse for severely burning and most likely killing a toddler. As you can tell, he's wracked with guilt.

[zxcvbob]

The officer who threw the grenade “is basically upside down,” relates the sheriff. “He’s gone and talked to his pastor, trying to get some counseling and some debriefing just to help him get through what has happened.” If the pastor is a man of God, rather than an agent of Leviathan, he will call that officer to repentance.

Would it be wrong for that pastor to pile on the guilt until the cop eats his gun?

(I don't think the sheriff knows what the word "Leviathan" means.  Nor "repentance")

BTW, props to CSD for not defending this one, although it's kind of an echo chamber w/o him.

[KD5NRH]

Would it be wrong for that pastor to pile on the guilt until the cop eats his gun?

Depends on the denomination, I guess.  I'd go for "counsel him in whatever direction it takes to get him to turn in his badge and spend the rest of his life speaking out and fighting against such practices," though.

Or at least get him to run against the sheriff next election time, with a very outspoken platform of eliminating SWAT raids except in cases of imminent threat to life.

[Sindawe]

"Most of the posters have an attitude of "Screw 'em!..."

Said posters would do well to remember that the sentiment can run in their direction as well. 

[Dannyboy]

The cops arrested the guy they wanted the next day at another house but there's no mention of whether or not they no-knocked that house too. Arresting him with a no-knock would make the first raid seem unnecessary.

[KD5NRH]

The cops arrested the guy they wanted the next day at another house but there's no mention of whether or not they no-knocked that house too. Arresting him with a no-knock would make the first raid seem unnecessary.

Last article I saw said "without incident."  Convenient, isn't it?

Said posters would do well to remember that the sentiment can run in their direction as well.

Anybody want to help me get funding for an energy project?  I want to find Sir Robert Peel's corpse, glue some magnets to it, and power the world from his spinning.

[dogmush]

Anybody want to help me get funding for an energy project?  I want to find Sir Robert Peel's corpse, glue some magnets to it, and power the world from his spinning.

I actually had to google him.

1. To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment.
2. To recognise always that the power of the police to fulfil their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect.
3. To recognise always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of the willing co-operation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws.
4. To recognise always that the extent to which the co-operation of the public can be secured diminishes proportionately the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion for achieving police objectives.
5. To seek and preserve public favour, not by pandering to public opinion; but by constantly demonstrating absolutely impartial service to law, in complete independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustice of the substance of individual laws, by ready offering of individual service and friendship to all members of the public without regard to their wealth or social standing, by ready exercise of courtesy and friendly good humour; and by ready offering of individual sacrifice in protecting and preserving life.
6. To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public co-operation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective.
7. To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
8. To recognise always the need for strict adherence to police-executive functions, and to refrain from even seeming to usurp the powers of the judiciary of avenging individuals or the State, and of authoritatively judging guilt and punishing the guilty.
9. To recognise always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.

Sounds like some crazy utopia.

[fifth_column]

I actually had to google him.

Sounds like some crazy utopia.

I'd never heard of him.  I'd always wondered where the term "bobbies" came from, now I know.

[Tallpine]

I'd never heard of him.  I'd always wondered where the term "bobbies" came from, now I know.

I had heard of Robert Peel - but then I forgot the name 

I do however still remember Emma Peel 

[KD5NRH]

The other thing that's squirrelly here is the claim that she was using the baby as a human shield.   Crib or playpen, how many people have put their baby in the middle of the living room just because it's a fairly convenient spot for keeping an eye on the kid?

IMO, we can infer a lot from the simple fact that departments will spend tens of thousands of dollars on tactical crap, but not $100/officer on wearable cameras and a requirement that they be on and active at all times during these actions.

[roo_ster]

The other thing that's squirrelly here is the claim that she was using the baby as a human shield.   Crib or playpen, how many people have put their baby in the middle of the living room just because it's a fairly convenient spot for keeping an eye on the kid?

IMO, we can infer a lot from the simple fact that departments will spend tens of thousands of dollars on tactical crap, but not $100/officer on wearable cameras and a requirement that they be on and active at all times during these actions.

Or top-notch training. 

I get more & more anti-SWAT every year.  I think recruiting higher-quality beat patrolmen, giving them better training, and having them carry a carbine and maybe some other gear in the trunk is a better solution for 75% of LEO agencies that run SWAT.

So many of the SWAT videos show an unruly & undisciplined knot of SWATties who are well-equipped, but toss tactical soundness out the window from the get-go.  They desperately could use some of my old NCOs to put the fear of God (and a size 12R boot up their ass) into them.

[KD5NRH]

So many of the SWAT videos show an unruly & undisciplined knot of SWATties who are well-equipped, but toss tactical soundness out the window from the get-go.  They desperately could use some of my old NCOs to put the fear of God (and a size 12R boot up their ass) into them.

This.  Use the ram, then wait while the guy with the ram sets it down and draws his pistol, then everybody enters in a nice line...watching through a few of the videos, I'm amazed none of their targets has ever managed a "SWAT Stack o' Truth" test of a .30-06 with AP.  With good timing, it could get the whole team with a throat shot on the first guy.

[cordex]

I get more & more anti-SWAT every year.  I think recruiting higher-quality beat patrolmen, giving them better training, and having them carry a carbine and maybe some other gear in the trunk is a better solution for 75% of LEO agencies that run SWAT.

Totally agree.  It's too much of an investment to not use, and if there aren't enough cases that really warrant its use then it will be overused and misused.

Better beat cops with a little extra equipment and training would be far better in most cases.  For the rare barricaded shooter, ring up the regional statie team, or the nearest metro department with a team.

Not every fire department needs an aerial firefighting division, and not every police department needs SWAT.

[dogmush]

You guys know that the VAST majority of SWAT teams in this country are regular beat cops with extra equipment in the trunk, right?

Most smaller departments just take some percentage of their force and give them some extra training and equipment and then put them back on patrol.  When they decide to call SWAT, or do a No-Knock, they just call up the SWAT trained officers that are on shift and go.  That's at least half the reason SWAT teams tend to be so poorly trained.

I'm getting to the point where I'd like to see no cities have SWAT teams.  Let the County Sheriff have one team, 5 or so guys, that do all of it for the whole county.  And that's all they do.  Train, burn ammo, and be on call. Yeah those 5 guys wouldn't do much, but when they had to do it for real, they'd be good at it.  And less likely to set houses on fire or char babies.

[KD5NRH]

Let the County Sheriff have one team, 5 or so guys, that do all of it for the whole county.  And that's all they do.  Train, burn ammo, and be on call.

Then there would be even more of an administrative push to use them unnecessarily, just to justify the ongoing expense.