Habersham County Sheriffs: killing pastors and burning babies

[Ben]

I'm getting to the point where I'd like to see no cities have SWAT teams.  Let the County Sheriff have one team, 5 or so guys, that do all of it for the whole county.  And that's all they do.  Train, burn ammo, and be on call. Yeah those 5 guys wouldn't do much, but when they had to do it for real, they'd be good at it.  And less likely to set houses on fire or char babies.

I agree*. One of the things I have consistently seen in the Federal government, and I'm positive trickles down to State and Local, is that any agency/dept/locality with a limited budget, instead of not doing something because they can't afford to and don't have the resources to do it right, will ALWAYS decide to half-ass it, just to say they're doing it. Giving a paper-pusher one extra collateral duty that involves different paper pushing that they do a crappy job at may be screwing the taxpayers, but giving someone a collateral duty, without proper training, that involves life and death decisions, is simply dangerous.

* I think the debate on SWAT teams existing and how they act and how they are deployed, is different than the debate that if they do exist, that they at least need to be trained well and continuously train. If your "SWAT team" is a few guys you threw extra battle rattle, a surplus APC, and a nifty mil-dot scope to, then sorry, no.

[cordex]

You guys know that the VAST majority of SWAT teams in this country are regular beat cops with extra equipment in the trunk, right?

Yeah, that is how our local ERT team is staffed too, but that's not really what I'm talking about.  That is still assigning a group of guys to a SWAT role which leads to SWAT funding with leads to seeking ways to use the SWAT investment.

[dogmush]

Then there would be even more of an administrative push to use them unnecessarily, just to justify the ongoing expense.

OK.  Addendum to plan.  County SWAT is it's own little department.  Has a budget, a boss, and some training area.  Get your teams out there and train.  It does NOT however have the authority to go somewhere and SWAT on it's own.  Set it up so another agency has to request SWAT.  Charge the requesting agency.  A lot*.  Don't give that money to SWAT.  Put it into libraries or something.

So SWAT's incentive is to sit there and train.  THat's all the budget they're going to get.  Going on a call just messes up the training schedule.  The folks that are supplying that budget CAN'T use the team.

Local LEA's incentive is to figure out a non SWAT way to solve the problem, because if you call SWAT a big chunk of your budget is going into replacing Twilight novels that girls didn't return.

If you do get a criminal that needs SWATing, your team is top notch because they've spent the last 5 years training 40 hrs a week.

*Sliding scale based on the size of the department's budget.  And make add a law that any local officer that crosses into SWAT territory loses immunity.  And any administrator or higher up that allows one of their officers to get tactical looses immunity and is personally liable for any damages.

[Tallpine]

This.  Use the ram, then wait while the guy with the ram sets it down and draws his pistol, then everybody enters in a nice line...watching through a few of the videos, I'm amazed none of their targets has ever managed a "SWAT Stack o' Truth" test of a .30-06 with AP.  With good timing, it could get the whole team with a throat shot on the first guy.

I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter 

[Ben]

Guys, let's please be careful that our discussions are not becoming what we're protesting. Thanks.

[Hawkmoon]

The cops arrested the guy they wanted the next day at another house but there's no mention of whether or not they no-knocked that house too. Arresting him with a no-knock would make the first raid seem unnecessary.

The first raid was clearly unnecessary. It

• Found no drugs
• Found no weapons
• Did not find the intended suspect
• Critcally injured an innocent toddler

How could it have been any less necessary?

[HankB]

I'm surprised nobody in the apartment was charged with child endangerment for placing the tyke in the path of a police grenade - maybe now that the original suspect is in custody, additional charges of harm to a child can be filed, too.

[brimic]

[230RN]

I'm surprised nobody's talked about the judges who OK these warrants without demanding better justification for the no-knock entries.

Who was that judge anyhow?  Who was the police official who made the claim that a no-knock was necessary?


And someone made an appealing point:  If there's only enough "stuff" that someone could flush it down the toilet, why was it such a big deal?

[roo_ster]

I'm surprised nobody's talked about the judges who OK these warrants without demanding better justification for the no-knock entries.

Who was that judge anyhow?  Who was the police official who made the claim that a no-knock was necessary?


And someone made an appealing point:  If there's only enough "stuff" that someone could flush it down the toilet, why was it such a big deal?

Judge Rubberstamp.

For these sorts of things to occur and be considered "legal," all three branches of gov't must be oath-breakers.

[230RN]

Roo_ster spake thus:

Judge Rubberstamp.

For these sorts of things to occur and be considered "legal," all three branches of gov't must be oath-breakers.

Quoted for excellence.

[KD5NRH]

And someone made an appealing point:  If there's only enough "stuff" that someone could flush it down the toilet, why was it such a big deal?

Exactly; and if you do it every couple weeks, eventually the guy might get tired enough of having to flush his stash at random intervals to quit keeping any at home anyway.

[Balog]

In a shocking revelation, the guy who laughs about his boys burning a baby's face with a grenade lied about what happened. Our resident apologists are certainly quiet on this one aren't they?

http://www.wect.com/story/25685094/us-attorney-meets-with-family-of-child-hurt-in-drug-raid

Habersham County Sheriff Joey Terrell said deputies used the flashbang because they couldn't get in a door blocked by Phonesavanh's playpen. The grenade landed in the playpen, going off inches from the 19-month-old's face. Davis said independent investigators discovered Terrell's statement was wrong.

"We have taken measurements where the playpen was at the time of the incident from the doorway, which was breached by this SWAT team. It measures six feet away from the door, so the notion that this playpen was pressed up against this door is an absolute lie," Davis said.

[zxcvbob]

In a shocking revelation, the guy who laughs about his boys burning a baby's face with a grenade lied about what happened. Our resident apologists are certainly quiet on this one aren't they?

I think that says a lot.  Don't you?

[Balog]

I think that says a lot.  Don't you?

Only other time I can think of that happening was the Spokane cop who beat the retarded guy to death for no reason, and his fellow thin blue liners showed up to applaud and support him when he was convicted. Some things are so bad they can't be spun.

[KD5NRH]

*Sliding scale based on the size of the department's budget.  And make add a law that any local officer that crosses into SWAT territory loses immunity.  And any administrator or higher up that allows one of their officers to get tactical looses immunity and is personally liable for any damages.

I'd give them a little leeway on this; for truly time-critical situations, they should be able to act without waiting for SWAT to roll, but it would need to be absolutely clear that nothing short of imminent danger of serious injury or death to innocent parties qualifies as being that time critical.  (I'm thinking clearly unstable hostage taker doing the "I'm going to kill one every x minutes" routine, or drugged up kidnapper, not Bubba holed up all alone with a deer rifle, only threatening people who actually approach the house.  For Bubba, the regulars set up a perimeter and ask cavalry to roll the MRAP and take over.)  

ETA: Don't I remember from somewhere that the procedure for pyrotechnics through the door on entry is supposed to be "throw low?"  i.e. an underhanded, level toss around knee level, specifically so it doesn't end up in someone's lap or bed?

[brimic]

For Bubba, the regulars set up a perimeter and ask cavalry to roll the MRAP and take over.) 

For bubba, cut the power and water, and park a few extra squads on the street near his house. He'll be out in a day or two. No need for mrap retardedness.

[KD5NRH]

For bubba, cut the power and water, and park a few extra squads on the street near his house. He'll be out in a day or two. No need for mrap retardedness.

MRAP, gas grenades, drag his butt out and let the neighbors go home.  Don't drag the situation out.

While we're at it, roll SWAT on traffic accidents; while the locals are playing Kojak out there, pretending there is anything to investigate in 99% of wrecks, MRAP plows through and restores free flowing traffic to reduce the risk of more wrecks.  Gas and other less-than-lethal grenades on rubberneckers encouraged.

[cordex]

For bubba, cut the power and water, and park a few extra squads on the street near his house. He'll be out in a day or two. No need for mrap retardedness.

If I were bubba's neighbor, I'd be pretty pissed if my family and I were evicted from my home for an indefinite period to wait out the jerk taking shots at all comers.  A barricaded shooter is one of those rare cases I think SWAT makes sense, but it is also one that usually gives you time to wait for some sort of regional team of professionals to gear up and come in.

[dogmush]

If I were bubba's neighbor, I'd be pretty pissed if my family and I were evicted from my home for an indefinite period to wait out the jerk taking shots at all comers.  A barricaded shooter is one of those rare cases I think SWAT makes sense, but it is also one that usually gives you time to wait for some sort of regional team of professionals to gear up and come in.

Not as pissed as you'll be when Officer Mikey Milsim burns your place to the ground after chucking some "burners" into Bubba's place.

[Ben]

For bubba, cut the power and water, and park a few extra squads on the street near his house. He'll be out in a day or two. No need for mrap retardedness.

This has always been my philosophy on the matter. "We've got the place surrounded, come out with your hands up!"

Drugs may be flushed down the toilet, but big deal. You have less risk of injury or death on both sides. Bubba, if he has a brain cell or two, has time to call a lawyer before he comes out. If they got my house by mistake, I also have time to figure out what's going on and call someone myself, or at the very least, can walk out and deal with the cops in public. If shots are fired, or there is a legitimate bomb threat or similar, then the police can start looking at displacing neighbors and/or using more aggressive methods to end the situation. If not, there's no reason to evacuate the whole block.

I'm fine with my tax dollars paying for LE to sit outside a place and wait. I think it ends up being a lot cheaper than say, the lawsuit that will likely come from the OP, that my tax dollars would pay for.

[cordex]

Not as pissed as you'll be when Officer Mikey Milsim burns your place to the ground after chucking some "burners" into Bubba's place.

Right, although there probably some sort of middle ground between burning down the neighborhood and evicting everyone until bubba runs out of water and either offs himself or gives up and comes out.

[zxcvbob]

But if they flush the baggie of drugs, you might not be able to seize the house and everything in it.    The sheriffs and the chiefs (you know, the ones not actually there and at risk) care a lot more about asset forfeiture than they do about actual officer safety or public safety.

[KD5NRH]

Right, although there probably some sort of middle ground between burning down the neighborhood and evicting everyone until bubba runs out of water and either offs himself or gives up and comes out.

ISPRA, Clear Out and plenty of others offer non-incendiary CS, CN and/or OC options.  Not that hard to come up with ways to disperse anything that can be pressurized in gas or aerosol form without fire.  ISPRA specifically offers 40mm CS powder rounds, and Clear Out has what amounts to an OC/CS bug bomb for $17 a can.  So, say, $500 worth of those, and you can lob in one every 30 minutes and wait him out up to 15 hours until his surplus gas mask's 20 year old canister gives up.  Something along the lines of the CO2 pressure burst grenades used for Airsoft will keep him awake and disoriented.  A mason jar full of angry hornets might be a fun plan too.

[230RN]

But if they flush the baggie of drugs, you might not be able to seize the house and everything in it.

Hmmm... a significant observation.