News Over-reaction, or cause for Panic? New Libya Gov't To Base Law on Sharia

[MicroBalrog]

Some of the top rebel brass are al Qaeda types that the united states renditioned to gaddafi for torture in the past.

So yeah, I'd say it's likely they'll be back to haunt us.  They aren't so dumb that they'll forget US assistance to Gaddafi in torturing and killing them since 2003.  And I guarantee NATOs assistance will not be taken as fair payment.

The real lesson there is that we shouldn't be helping tyrants to torture and kill people, even if it serves some narrow "security" interest at the time.  It will always come back.

Also, it's unwise to sponsor fanatics.  Support for Saudi Arabia is a primary cause of radical religious terrorism, and it's a certain that as Libyan radical terrorism grows, it will be backed by Saudi money.

Silly De Selby.

Didn't you get the memo? Everything is morally justified in the fight against the Islamic Threat.

We will support any tyrant, no matter how bloodthirsty, against his own people, as long as they are anti-Muslim.

Anything at all that occurs after the tyrant's downfall - even provocations by the tyrant's own generals - will be seen as evidence of an ever-growing Muslim threat.

[De Selby]

It's a win win if your aim is to squander a nation's fortune on "security" measures, like referring people to gaddafi for torture.  Using that method then forces you to spend billions fighting all the terrorism you've baited through your torture policy.

Bush/Obama's close cooperation with Gaddafi always gave lie to the "freedom spreading" claims.  Our middle east policy is defined by very narrow financial interests, which, when they inevitably spark violence, trigger expensive and difficult military options. 

The al Qaeda supporters who just killed Gaddafi will only be helping us continue the long tradition we started with support for Saudi Arabia, one of the most barbarous regimes in the world.

[longeyes]

Please, enlighten us.  Not with circular gobblity gook, either. I'm not a smart man, Jenny.

I always take you at your word, even when you are unnecessarily modest.

My point is simple: the global Left, with its goal in the universal NWO, is not, at root, so different from Islam, aka OWO.  The ultimate issue is which one succeeds in using the other more effectively for its own ends.

[longeyes]

So we assist in overthrowing a semi-undfriendly dictator, and might get an islamic government that is unfriendly to us?  Brilliant foriegn policy strategy.
I mean, really? Is our foriegn policy being written by a room full of chimps with typewriters?

You don't really think this support of populist jihadism is just stupidity, do you?  To some of us the "stupidity" ultimately conduces to a radical Caliphate.  As bad as most of these dictators were, they had some semblance of secularism and Euro-American influence.  Bottom-line: Secular dictators tend to have finite sway; not so oppressive religious movements.

[MicroBalrog]

You don't really think this support of populist jihadism is just stupidity, do you?  To some of us the "stupidity" ultimately conduces to a radical Caliphate.  As bad as most of these dictators were, they had some semblance of secularism and Euro-American influence.  Bottom-line: Secular dictators tend to have finite sway; not so oppressive religious movements.

Sharia =/= OMG IRAN.

[longeyes]

Want to translate that for The Rest of Us?

[MicroBalrog]

Want to translate that for The Rest of Us?

For the audience at home who did not understand the posts that Iain (and I) made on the topic:

THe term "Sharia law" can encompass a broad variety of things, and does not automatically equal the raw oppression visible in countries like Iran. It is true that Libya will not become a European democracy overnight, but this is a standard which practically every country would fail - even the European democracies themselves.

[longeyes]

No doubt there are many flavors and varieties of oppression, but then why is it our business to exchange one for another?  The issue should not be nuanced philosophical parsing of various types of authoritarianism but whether interfering, at the cost of blood and treasure, is justified at all on a state-to-state level.  As you probably realize we have people inside our government who believe that the Responsibility To Protect (RTP) doctrine gives us carte blanche to intervene anywhere in the world for (allegedly) higher moral reasons.

[MicroBalrog]

No doubt there are many flavors and varieties of oppression, but then why is it our business to exchange one for another?  The issue should not be nuanced philosophical parsing of various types of authoritarianism but whether interfering, at the cost of blood and treasure, is justified at all on a state-to-state level.  .

Wouldn't this depend on how much treasure (Libya cost no blood) is spent, and at what benefit?

[roo_ster]

No doubt there are many flavors and varieties of oppression, but then why is it our business to exchange one for another?  The issue should not be nuanced philosophical parsing of various types of authoritarianism but whether interfering, at the cost of blood and treasure, is justified at all on a state-to-state level.  As you probably realize we have people inside our government who believe that the Responsibility To Protect (RTP) doctrine gives us carte blanche to intervene anywhere in the world for (allegedly) higher moral reasons.

Quite right.  Discussing how many secular versus islamist dictators can dance on the head of a pin is a fool's errand.

Wouldn't this depend on how much treasure (Libya cost no blood) is spent, and at what benefit?

The likelihood that we would get an improvement over any generic authoritarian regime not overtly hostile to American interests is minuscule in the ME.  So, even at zero cost in blood, it is a bad bet.

Islam and the ME are broke in ways we can not fix for its adherents and occupants.

[MicroBalrog]

Quite right.  Discussing how many secular versus islamist dictators can dance on the head of a pin is a fool's errand.

And yet there are also quite a few, if flawed, Muslim democracies, friendly to the US too. A democracy with regular elections, while not the equal of a Constitutional Republic, is superior in every way to raw, naked dictatorship.

[longeyes]

And yet there are also quite a few, if flawed, Muslim democracies, friendly to the US too. A democracy with regular elections, while not the equal of a Constitutional Republic, is superior in every way to raw, naked dictatorship.

Raw or cooked?  Take your pick.  One man's raw, naked dictatorship is another man's religion-clothed de facto dictatorship.  The real issue is not whether they are "friendly"--excuse me if I have my doubts about that--or trying hard to mimic our governmental structures but whether it's our business and in our interest.  Our ability to control what goes on in the MENA is limited and much of what we do, given the murkiness of our motives and lack of diplomatic expertise, seems counter-productive and damn expensive. 

[MicroBalrog]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-17844280

As of this moment, religious parties are banned from running for office in Libya altogether.

[mtnbkr]

how dare they restrict the freedom of the Libyan peoples that way!

Chris

[MicroBalrog]

how dare they restrict the freedom of the Libyan peoples that way!

Chris

Well that's true and certainly were I Libyan I would be outraged, but certainly it's another nail in the coffin of the notion that Radical Islamists Will Take Over Soon.

[mtnbkr]

They'll set up a shadow govt and take over anyway.

Chris

[mtnbkr]

Just covering all the tinfoil bases here...

Chris

[roo_ster]

Just covering all the tinfoil bases here...

Chris

Tinfoil faces?

[mtnbkr]

You've been saving that one, haven't you? :)

Chris

[makattak]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2135434/Outrage-Egypt-plans-farewell-intercourse-law-husbands-sex-dead-wives-hours-AFTER-death.html

Related...

[MicroBalrog]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2135434/Outrage-Egypt-plans-farewell-intercourse-law-husbands-sex-dead-wives-hours-AFTER-death.html

Related...

Guys, this is a hoax....Nothing like that was discussed in Egypt's parliament...one of the Egyptian reporters famous of promoting false news wrote an article that sparked all the rumors and the whole craze . So you can safely ignore that. Wives of Egyptians...Die in peace, ur safe !

[grampster]

If I was running the CIA, I'd create a disinformation campaign of slurring the various sects of Islam as if the various sects of Islam were producing the insults against each other so as to get them all at each others throats while we sit back and watch.

[roo_ster]

If I was running the C I'd create a disinformation campaign of slurring the various sects of Islam as if the various sects of Islam were producing the insults against each other so as to get them all at each others throats while we sit back and watch.IA,

That would require intelligence.

[cordex]

If I was running the CIA, I'd create a disinformation campaign of slurring the various sects of Islam as if the various sects of Islam were producing the insults against each other so as to get them all at each others throats while we sit back and watch.

Oh, good call.  Because the various Islamic sects don't already go at each other's throats enough.

[roo_ster]

Oh, good call.  Because the various Islamic sects don't already go at each other's throats enough.

True dat.