Can Ethanol as a fuel be killed?

[Scout26]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2014/04/20/its-final-corn-ethanol-is-of-no-use/

Of course I disagree with his "Ratchet up CAFE standards to 40MPG !!" as a solution, but yes, Corn ethanol as a fuel needs to have a stake driven into it's heart.


I swear that 50-100 years from now they'll look back on Ethanol, Obamacare, etc.  and ask "What the hell were they thinking?"

[zahc]

Does it need to be killed?

I have no problem using ethanol as fuel. Just kill the subsidies and let it (fail to) compete.

[griz]

It just occurred to me that the US gov has, sometimes simultaneously, prohibited, taxed, and subsidized the distillation of alcohol.

[bedlamite]

Does it need to be killed?

I have no problem using ethanol as fuel. Just kill the subsidies and let it (fail to) compete.

We also need to remove the 10% mandate that some states have.

[lee n. field]

Can Ethanol as a fuel be killed?

Just on general principles, I'd say it was more about funneling money to favored people, than anything practical.

[brimic]

Does it need to be killed?

I have no problem using ethanol as fuel. Just kill the subsidies and let it (fail to) compete.

yes, that.

If they are going to subsidize a fuel, it should be LNG, not ethanol. We have enough of that stuff to never need to buy another drop of islamofacist oil ever again, its just a matter of getting the infrastructure in place. Can't expect .gov to not pick a loser to subsidize though.

[230RN]

I swear that 50-100 years from now they'll look back on Ethanol, Obamacare, etc.  and ask "What the hell were they thinking?"

Hopefully and happily, it will occur in 2016.

[HankB]

Just on general principles, I'd say it was more about funneling money to favored people, than anything practical.

Bingo. In MN a couple of decades ago, one of the newspapers up there noticed an almost perfect 1:1 correlation between politicians who received campaign contributions from ethanol producers, and politicians who voted to impose an ethanol dilution mandate on gasoline.

I expect it's the same today, except more $$$ are involved. (I hear it takes more to buy a Federal official than a state representative.)

[Brad Johnson]

Can ethanol as a fuel be killed?

I hope not. E85 is perfect weekend warrior racing fuel. Even unsubsidized it's half or less the pricd of of dedicated go-fast juice.

Also, running a tank through every few fillups keeps the fuel system cleaned and de-watered. It also de-carbons combustion chambers nicely. Presuming your vehicle is flex fuel capable, of course.

Brad

[charby]

We have had E-10 gas in Iowa since the mid 1970's, its not going anywhere anytime soon.

Neighboring town a cellulose to ethanol plant is being build, using corn stover to feed it at first is going to suck for the soil since the organic matter is being removed and surface litter (helps with erosion), but hopefully it can transition over to more perennial vegetation such as grasses or short rotation woody mass like poplar species.

[Firethorn]

I think that the core point is that using Corn-juice to produce ethanol is a bloody poor way to do it.  That doesn't mean that ethanol can't be a worthy fuel, just that we need to stop using corn squeezings to do it.

Personally, I'd like to see algae used to produce it.  Massive farms down in the desert, using seawater.

Use the oil of the algae to produce biodiesel, the carbohydrates and such to produce ethanol, or even the newer gasoline analogs.

[Northwoods]

Or build a crap ton of new nukes and use the excess capacity to synthesize methanol.  Dehydrate some of that to make DME.  Then use our oil for more value added manufacturing processes.

Then, if we're feeling generous buy the OPEC nations a few extra goats to keep them company.

[Balog]

Remove all subsidies and mandates and let the market figure it out. Also, build a bunch of nuke plants and start using them both for power generation and producing other fuels.

We have no energy problems. We have a lack of will.

[brimic]

I think that the core point is that using Corn-juice to produce ethanol is a bloody poor way to do it.  That doesn't mean that ethanol can't be a worthy fuel, just that we need to stop using corn squeezings to do it.

Personally, I'd like to see algae used to produce it.  Massive farms down in the desert, using seawater.

Use the oil of the algae to produce biodiesel, the carbohydrates and such to produce ethanol, or even the newer gasoline analogs.

ethanol is a worthy fuel in places like brazil, where they caN grow sugar cane which yields a much higher energy output vs input than corn...

[charby]

ethanol is a worthy fuel in places like brazil, where they caN grow sugar cane which yields a much higher energy output vs input than corn...

Sugar cane has really high input costs to keep production costs up.

Sorghum would make more sense in the drier areas of the US instead of irrigated cotton or corn.

[Boomhauer]

Remove all subsidies and mandates and let the market figure it out. Also, build a bunch of nuke plants and start using them both for power generation and producing other fuels.

We have no energy problems. We have a lack of will.

This.

You can keep your ethanol fuel if you like it. But it ain't right to mandate it and subsidize it.

[charby]

This.

You can keep your ethanol fuel if you like it. But it ain't right to mandate it and subsidize it.

What would the price of oil or gasoline be without the subsidies given to that?

[Northwoods]

What would the price of oil or gasoline be without the subsidies given to that?

Given that they're commodities traded globally and pricing is based on global supply and demand (and the USA is a large, but hardly majority supplier) I'm going out on a limb and will say they'd be very close to what they are with the subsidies.  Besides, the "subsidies" we give to oil companies are mostly in the form of tax deductions that are hardly exclusive to petro-industry but happen to be useful to them.

[charby]

Given that they're commodities traded globally and pricing is based on global supply and demand (and the USA is a large, but hardly majority supplier) I'm going out on a limb and will say they'd be very close to what they are with the subsidies.  Besides, the "subsidies" we give to oil companies are mostly in the form of tax deductions that are hardly exclusive to petro-industry but happen to be useful to them.

We aren't the only country that subsidizes oil.

[HankB]

What would the price of oil or gasoline be without the subsidies given to that?

Fed.gov requires all manner of seasonal and regional formulations on gas that help drive up the cost.

Fed.gov takes in more taxes on a barrel of oil than the big oil companies make in profit on that same barrel.

In TX, state taxes on gasoline are applied to all manner of things other than roads and transportation.

So who's subsidizing who?

[Scout26]

What would the price of oil or gasoline be without the subsidies given to that?

Tax deductions =/= "subsidies".  Or perhaps, you can list the payments to oil companies given out by the fed. gov?

[charby]

Tax deductions =/= "subsidies".  Or perhaps, you can list the payments to oil companies given out by the fed. gov?

Money for exploration (direct grants, low/no interest loans/preferred lending) and cheap energy leases on federal lands.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Money for exploration (direct grants, low/no interest loans/preferred lending) and cheap energy leases on federal lands.

And at the end we get oil and cheaper oil

At the end of the ethanol gravy train the only ones getting the gravy are the folks growing corn and their bought and paid for politicians


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[Hawkmoon]

Also, running a tank through every few fillups keeps the fuel system cleaned and de-watered. It also de-carbons combustion chambers nicely. Presuming your vehicle is flex fuel capable, of course.

Dry Gas.

Marvel Mystery Oil.

Done.

[Scout26]

Money for exploration (direct grants, low/no interest loans/preferred lending) and cheap energy leases on federal lands.

Perhaps you can provide links to these.  As the only ones I find are Section 1703 and Section 1705 loans which are all about alternative and renewable energy.   I spent over an hour on the energy.gov website and failed to find a single thing for oil, oil drilling, and oil production (except for Deepwater Horizon).  Hell, even Mother Jones' rant about the oil industry only listed the tax incentives that the industry gets.

"Cheap Energy Leases on Federal lands"  Seems that the .gov sets the market price and the oil drillers pay it.   Just like the Bundy ranch, perhaps the Fed.gov needs to get out of the land business, since they seem to completely mis-manage it.  

But again.  Words have meanings.   A tax break is not a subsidy.  Allowing someone to keep more of their money is not a subsidy.   Those are the terms the leftists use to create confusion in those that aren't paying attention and generate anger towards those getting a "subsidy".  It's another way they create the "us vs them" that they need to gain and continue in power.