Post by: Tecumseh on February 10, 2008, 09:34:30 AM
Thoughts. Thanks.
Post by: Scout26 on February 10, 2008, 09:52:27 AM
I'm not a McCain supporter, but I do have respect for what he went through as a POW vs. what Kerry did in Viet-Nam.
Post by: brer on February 10, 2008, 10:38:06 AM
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on February 10, 2008, 10:57:58 AM
Post by: Teknoid on February 10, 2008, 11:30:47 AM
i think kerrys actions while still a reservist after he took the three scratches your out clause hurt him forever. as does his "performance" before congress. add that to the mystry medals being tossed and the general slime that oozes from him hes earned for ever a place beside hanoi jane on the wall of shame. how many guys get a place in the enemy war museum
+1 Regardless of what he did in Nam, what he did after returning home was enough to label him a liar and traitor, to me.
Post by: HankB on February 10, 2008, 11:46:02 AM
Either Kerry is a liar - or all of them, every single one, is.
Considering the parts of Kerry's past that we can easily verify . . . the Swift Boaters were, and remain, FAR more credible.
As for McCain . . . I'm NO fan of his, but unless a whole slew of other vets come forth to denounce him as Jane Fonda's main squeeze in Vietnam or something, his service record isn't a target for attack.
Post by: Perd Hapley on February 10, 2008, 12:03:23 PM
Why John Kerry's honorable service is laughed at while John McCains heroic service is held in such high regard by many?
The answer is really very simple. John Kerry's service has come under very serious, and very public, criticism from those who appear to be credible witnesses. Even if the witnesses are mistaken or lying, there's your answer. McCain's service has not been questioned, or if it has, no one has heard about it.
Post by: Bigjake on February 10, 2008, 12:21:27 PM
Quote
Why John Kerry's honorable service is laughed at while John McCain's heroic service is held in such high regard by many?
You answered your own question somewhat. Kerry's record is only honorable on paper, McCain's is indisputable.
Kerry (who served in Vietnam, BTW) tried to use his record as a resume enhancer, and he was either audacious enough to think that no one would scrutinize it, or deluded to the point he thought it was something to beat his chest over.
McCain's record, OTOH, speaks for itself.
Added, "Unfit for Command" is an interesting read.
Post by: brer on February 10, 2008, 02:15:28 PM
Thing is, Kerry also had an honorable record. He was wounded in action three times in vietnam. The swift boaters are basically saying collectively that a man that was wounded in combat three times is less worthy than a man who never saw vietnam because he got a reserve appointment through privelage and did'nt even manage to fufill the duties assigned to him light as they were.
I really do not need to see the swift boaters credentials, their own words have already told me all that I need to know about them. They were organized as a political attack machine and have lost all credibility because of that.
Post by: Perd Hapley on February 10, 2008, 02:19:49 PM
Kerry also had an honorable record. He was wounded in action three times in vietnam. The swift boaters are basically saying collectively that a man that was wounded in combat three times is less worthy than a man who never saw vietnam because he got a reserve appointment through privelage and did'nt even manage to fufill the duties assigned to him light as they were.
No, that's not true.
Post by: brer on February 10, 2008, 02:23:30 PM
Post by: Perd Hapley on February 10, 2008, 02:24:38 PM
Post by: brer on February 10, 2008, 02:26:54 PM
Post by: Tecumseh on February 10, 2008, 02:43:11 PM
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on February 10, 2008, 02:45:13 PM
Mccain's record is indusputable. He has earned his reputation.
Thing is, Kerry also had an honorable record. He was wounded in action three times in vietnam. The swift boaters are basically saying collectively that a man that was wounded in combat three times is less worthy than a man who never saw vietnam because he got a reserve appointment through privelage and did'nt even manage to fufill the duties assigned to him light as they were.
I really do not need to see the swift boaters credentials, their own words have already told me all that I need to know about them. They were organized as a political attack machine and have lost all credibility because of that.
Thing is, Kerry also had an honorable record. He was wounded in action three times in vietnam. The swift boaters are basically saying collectively that a man that was wounded in combat three times is less worthy than a man who never saw vietnam because he got a reserve appointment through privelage and did'nt even manage to fufill the duties assigned to him light as they were.
I really do not need to see the swift boaters credentials, their own words have already told me all that I need to know about them. They were organized as a political attack machine and have lost all credibility because of that.
kerrys goy a place of honor in the enemys war museum. he played at a negotiation with the enemy while still a reservist.
its no accident they have his picture next to jane fondas at the vfw
honest john kerry chose to make his "hero" status a part of his campaign. that made it and him fair game. that hes was shown to be a slimeball is no ones fault but his own.maybe he should given it more thought that xmas eve on the river in laos.... oh wait that was all bs too. but it sure made a great sound bite "burned into his memory"
Post by: brer on February 10, 2008, 02:59:21 PM
Remind me again where the Shrubs vietnam scars are?
Kerry demonstrated against the war, threw his medals away etc etc.
Guess what. He earned the right to do that. He left a lot more blood laying in the dirt than the shrub ever did.
What did we as a nation gain off of vietnam that would compensate us for the soldiers that died there?
I would say I hate to say it, but I dont. IMHO the swift boaters were bought off to a man in an attempt to make the only honorable war veteran in the race less appetizing than a person that not only ducked out of vietnam, but out of a much safer reserve post.
Post by: Bigjake on February 10, 2008, 03:17:04 PM
Post by: Dannyboy on February 10, 2008, 03:19:44 PM
IMHO the swift boaters were bought off to a man...
So, what you're saying, is that they ALL lied? If that were the case, then why hasn't Jawn Carey allowed his records to be released? Seems to me that that would clear up everything. Or, even better, why hasn't the esteemed junior Senator from Massachusetts sued anyone for libel/slander/defamation? Do you think it's because he's above that? Or, maybe, just maybe, everything they said was true.
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on February 10, 2008, 03:27:43 PM
Can anyone prove it?
What constitutes proof?All we really have today are numerous eyewitness accounts of Kerry's service, the vast majority are highly unfavorable to Kerry. Leftists like to claim that the swiftboat vets were all lying, that it was all some sort of elaborate conspiracy. I think most sane people would agree that there was no conspiracy, that those who served with Kerry all remember the events happened as they were as retold in Unfit for Command, more or less.
Then there's Kerry's well documented shameful behavior after he returned from Vietnam. Even if Kerry's service had been beyond reproach, his subsequent behavior showed that he held nothing but contempt for the military and those who served in it. It well and truly looked like he wanted his country to lose the Vietnam war. just as it looked/looks like he wants his country to lose the current war in Iraq.
The disreputable behavior the swiftboat vets attributed to Kerry matched the character of the man we all saw after the war. Maybe you could argue that none of this amounted to proof. It doesn't matter. Proof or not, the evidence was strong enough to convince voters that Kerry was not the honorable military man he pretended to be during his Presidential campaign.
To date, there hasn't been any serious, credible dispute of McCain's war record. Also, McCain has consistently supported the troops, the military, and the war efforts undertaken by our country since his release from captivity. It would be darned hard to convince the public that McCain's war record was a hoax. It wouldn't fit with what we've all observed for ourselves about McCain's actions, beliefs, and attitudes towards the military.
Post by: brer on February 10, 2008, 03:33:02 PM
If the swift boaters had made their comments before Kerry tried for election, I might have believed them. But the way they have been presented is symptomatic of having been bought off. Yes, I would challenge the honor of every last one of them but I think they sold their honor to the lowest bidder.
Again we get down to a man that left his blood in vietnam three seperate times versus a man that never saw the place in combat, got an appointment in the reserves on political pressure and never bothered to even fulfill that.
Post by: drewtam on February 10, 2008, 03:43:02 PM
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on February 10, 2008, 03:48:10 PM
Kerry's stance on the war was as a young blooded veteran. He was there, got the Tshirt, got the scars too.
Remind me again where the Shrubs vietnam scars are?
Kerry demonstrated against the war, threw his medals away etc etc.
Guess what. He earned the right to do that. He left a lot more blood laying in the dirt than the shrub ever did.
What did we as a nation gain off of vietnam that would compensate us for the soldiers that died there?
I would say I hate to say it, but I dont. IMHO the swift boaters were bought off to a man in an attempt to make the only honorable war veteran in the race less appetizing than a person that not only ducked out of vietnam, but out of a much safer reserve post.
Remind me again where the Shrubs vietnam scars are?
Kerry demonstrated against the war, threw his medals away etc etc.
Guess what. He earned the right to do that. He left a lot more blood laying in the dirt than the shrub ever did.
What did we as a nation gain off of vietnam that would compensate us for the soldiers that died there?
I would say I hate to say it, but I dont. IMHO the swift boaters were bought off to a man in an attempt to make the only honorable war veteran in the race less appetizing than a person that not only ducked out of vietnam, but out of a much safer reserve post.
did kerry really throw his medals ? hes got em on displayin his office now more honest john the liar at work
and brer? take a look at what flying jets is like sometime. not a desk pushers spot and i've never heard of a jet jockey who took his own pr footage in combat.
as to scars which of honest johns wounds left a scar? my 6 year olds got a better scar from riding her 4 wheeler
Post by: De Selby on February 10, 2008, 03:55:19 PM
It was an incredibly dumb political move. You can't go to Vietnam, earn a reputation as a show-boater who calls himself "the Next JFK from Massachusetts" and shoots dorky home videos about his battles, come back to throw your medals in the dirt and protest....and on top of it, run for president claiming that your military experience gives you an edge in leadership.
I think he honestly believed that the media would just not dig up all his statements post-Vietnam, and that he'd be able to sell himself as a bona fide commando leader by using a small number of former servicemen whose statements were carefully guarded by the Kerry campaign. His whole self-created image on this topic made him look like a phoney and a blow-hard, just like his hunting trips in camo.
Kerry 2004 goes down as one of the worst campaign years ever by any political side-the shear foolishness of the strategy was breathtaking.
Post by: brer on February 10, 2008, 04:03:56 PM
I really do not care if he threw his medals or not. Fundamental concept. He earned em, he can throw em if he wants to. He did spend time in vietnam unlike shrub, he earned the right to speak against the war. Unlike shrub who likes warmongering without ever having been in a war.
I lost a lot of my original issue medals in various moves. Did I lose the right to those medals? I think not. I can order replacements. I still have the right to wear what I earned. Are you calling me a liar for displaying the medals my DD214 says that I earned?
Show me a combat mission shrub flew. any evidence of one.
Hate to say it but Kerry got outpatrioted by a wannabe and a political attack machine.
He was there, shrub was not.
The worst part of it is that most of you still believe that bush has a better war record than Kerry. Just go Baaah real loudly so everyone can tell who you are
Post by: De Selby on February 10, 2008, 04:08:48 PM
-He ran as the "intellectual" candidate, when it turned out his grades from Yale were actually worse than George Bush's.
-He ran as the battle hardened candidate, when there were hours of tapes showing him talking about what a waste of time Vietnam was, how he witnessed atrocities personally, and how he thought all his awards and accolades for fighting in an immoral war were worthless. Yet the awards suddenly became worthwhile when he decided he could be elected as "the commando" president.
It has nothing to do with George Bush-John Kerry did himself in during 2004 with what should have been an easy campaign (it's not like bush was popular then.) He failed to win because the public rightly recognized him for a grandstander and a disingenuous politician. The long list of outraged former co-servicemen was icing on the cake; his own advertisements and speeches were enough to make him unelectable as it was.
Post by: grislyatoms on February 10, 2008, 04:09:00 PM
Quote
Why John Kerry's honorable service is laughed at while John McCain's heroic service is held in such high regard by many?
Kerry (who served in Vietnam, BTW)
Thanks for the Pepsi up my nose and all down my shirt...
Post by: brer on February 10, 2008, 04:19:48 PM
So what you are saying is that the shrub won because he was deemed intelectually the better of Kerry?
Hmm, While I am not 'battle hardened' I am a war veteran that thinks this war is a losing proposition. I also speak out against it.
Kerry never ran as the commando president. He did run as a man with a better record than the shrub.
Kerry failed to win because a political attack machine made a man that had actively dodged duty in vietnam appear to be a better candidate than a three time wounded war veteran. Just say baaah. You believed it.
Post by: antsi on February 10, 2008, 04:50:44 PM
Are you really looking for a discussion here, or do you just want to jump in to a controversial topic and insult anyone who disagrees with you?
Your basic position seems to be that anyone who served in Vietnam is unassailable. Well, the Swift Boat Vets served in Vietnam too and they dispute some of Kerry's claims about his service. If Kerry earned the right to speak out, so did they. Maybe you're right and they are all lying, and Kerry is the only one telling the truth.
In any situation where you have people contradicting each other, and no independent way of verifying the facts directly, you are basically taking one person's word against another's. There is no way to be absolutely sure in such cases. However, there are some ways you can get clues as to who might be telling the truth, such as looking at each side's possible motivations to lie, and how many witnesses are corroborating the same story versus the one guy contradicting them. Several people on this thread have pointed out these kind of factors which seem to favor the Swift Boat Vets. You have replied only with insults, and misdirection (like accusing people of defending Bush or saying his war record is superior, which nobody has done).
Your method of choosing whom to believe is clear. If they are a Democrat (Kerry), you believe them. If they are not (SBVets, McCain, Bush), you insult them. So, who exactly is being the sheep here?
As for the original question, if a group of Vietnam vets were to step up and contradict what McCain says about his war record, I would certainly listen to that. If their accusations were credible, I would certainly weigh that in judging McCain's character.
Post by: wooderson on February 10, 2008, 05:29:34 PM
Quote
Why John Kerry's honorable service is laughed at while John McCains heroic service is held in such high regard by many?
I think the answer here is simple: John Kerry is a Democrat. In the Atwater/Rove-era, ends justify means for the political machine of the American right.Was it tactically stupid for Kerry to present himself as a war hero? Absolutely.
Did it make me respect him less as a 'man of honor'? Well, not really, I didn't respect him in the first place.
Why that should render his service worthy of ridicule, particularly given his opposition? God only knows.
Post by: wooderson on February 10, 2008, 05:34:11 PM
We see it in this thread - claims that Kerry's post-service opposition got him a spot in the Vietnamese war museum and so on. Except that's long since been shown untrue - Kerry has a photo in the Vietnamese museum... along with Bob McNamara and other individuals who went to Vietnam as relations warmed in the '90s. It has bugger-all to do with the war itself, much less Kerry's activism.
Post by: brer on February 10, 2008, 05:35:06 PM
The problem is that everyone is is jumping on the side of the swift boat veterans. A group which has been shown in the past to be likely not swift, nor boat soldiers nor veterans as an absolute truth.
My basic position is that a man that avoided duty in vietnam was given more credence than a man that was wounded three times there. This is what is called a political attack machine.
The baaah is meant to be insulting. If you believed the swift boat veterans without question then you are a sheep. If you do not like being a sheep, then look up some time. Dont defend being a sheep.
Kerry's military record has been documented. Shrubs was not. I am not saying that all the swift boat veterans were lying, just the ones who were paid off were.
The swift boat veterans would have been believable if they had made their comments at the time of the facts. Making their first comments three decades later makes them look like hookers crying rape after they did not get paid. This is singularly what makes them untrustworthy. The man's record stood without question for close to thirty years until the republican attack machine started finding anyone that would claim to have served in the same unit, yet those same persons never came forwards on their own.
If anyone ever stepped up and challenged McCains record, I would listen to them, but not likely believe them just because the RNC said they were credible. McCain has an impressive record of service that few can match. Anyone gainsaying him should have stepped up a very long time ago.
You are declaiming Kerry's war record without ever defending the shrub's.
BTW, lifelong republican until shrub. Quite likely last time I will vote republican. Can you say fed up with deception?
Post by: Dannyboy on February 10, 2008, 05:58:49 PM
BTW, lifelong republican until shrub. Quite likely last time I will vote republican. Can you say fed up with deception?
Blah, blah, blah. Bush bad. Repugs bad. Are you Riley's brother or something? Are we gonna hear about the death of the middle class next?The reason nobody is defending Bush's war record, other than the fact that he doesn't have one, is that nobody was talking about him except you. He is totally irrelevant to the conversation. You just haven't been able to wrap your head around that yet.
Post by: wooderson on February 10, 2008, 06:03:59 PM
Post by: antsi on February 10, 2008, 06:14:44 PM
I never said I believed the SBvets. As a basic rule, I start off by disbelieving anything said by anyone involved in politics. Only if what they said is corroborated by multiple independent sources to I even begin to admit the possibility that they might be telling the truth.
Coming out with the story years later does tend to detract from believability. However there are also circumstantial factors against Kerry, too. I don't think you can say you definitively know which side is lying here. Most likely, Kerry has exaggerated his service AND the SBvets have exaggerated their counterclaims. I seriously doubt either side is telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
As to "meant to be insulting" all I can say is "why?" What is the point of anonymously insulting people on the internet?
Moreover, you're insulting people based on things they aren't even saying. Nobody on here has defended Bush's war record, or said they voted for him based on a judgment that his war record was superior to Kerry's, or even that they voted for him at all.
I voted against Kerry because he's a gun-grabbing socialist. He has been a total 100% supporter of every anti gun legislation that crossed his desk. His war record, good or bad, ture or untrue, had nothing to do with my vote.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on February 10, 2008, 06:15:57 PM
Post by: Scout26 on February 10, 2008, 06:16:27 PM
A couple of points:
1. You keep comparing Kerry's military service to Bush's. The OP ask about McCain v Kerry, not Bush v Kerry. So your arguments are non-starters. Oh, while you may not like the man, Ad Hominen attacks are very low road (Shrub) and not even remotely funny. As much as I disagreed with Clinton's policies I referred to him as President Clinton while he was in office, not Slick Willie or any of the many nicknames he earned/was given while in office.
2. Pres. Bush and John McCain have released all their service records, otherwise how would we know about Bush's time in Alabama National Guard. Kerry refuses and has fought tooth and nailed to prevent his being released. So you tell me who has nothing to hide ??
3. I guy I worked for while in college, served in Illinois National Guard during Vietnam. His dad used his clout and pulled in favors to get him in the Guard. He only did four out the six years he was supposed to. Where does he rate with you ??
4. Bush has better grades from Yale then Kerry, and a Harvard MBA. Kerry got his MBA from where again ?? Oh, that's right he doesn't have one.
5. And I tend to believe that what the swift boat veterans who were there with Kerry and then signed their names saying in essence "John Kerry" is lying carry much more wieght then Kerry's statements.
Post by: wooderson on February 10, 2008, 06:26:43 PM
Quote
see his claims aout being in laos for example. or his claims before congress about having witnesses atrocities personally both of which hes recanted on..
Do you have the direct quotes on his initial statements and later recantations on those?
Post by: wooderson on February 10, 2008, 06:27:21 PM
Quote
5. And I tend to believe that what the swift boat veterans who were there with Kerry and then signed their names saying in essence "John Kerry" is lying carry much more wieght then Kerry's statements.
You realize that none of the individuals who were "there with Kerry" "signed their names," right?
Post by: Bigjake on February 10, 2008, 06:42:09 PM
Quote
think the answer here is simple: John Kerry is a Democrat. In the Atwater/Rove-era, ends justify means for the political machine of the American right.
Dude, give it up. You've proven yourself a halfway rational intellectual in other threads, this one isn't a winner, why are you standing up for this grandstanding wannabe?? Rove didn't have to lift a finger, John F Kerry is his own worst enemy. You don't have to be a political genius to defeat such an idiot. to suggest that demeans Rove's political prowess, which you all rely on as a catch all for why Dem's loose. Fistful can't be the scapegoat for everything...
Post by: Bigjake on February 10, 2008, 06:43:41 PM
Post by: Ben on February 10, 2008, 06:46:53 PM
Post by: MechAg94 on February 10, 2008, 07:10:01 PM
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on February 10, 2008, 07:31:12 PM
Quote
see his claims aout being in laos for example. or his claims before congress about having witnesses atrocities personally both of which hes recanted on..
Do you have the direct quotes on his initial statements and later recantations on those?there is video of kerry tesuys actually saw the atrocities. testifying about the atrocities and his lil firefight in laos sound bite was in the congressional record he later aknowledged guilding the lilly saying other guys saw the atrocities. sadly for him it seems the two guys he named were never in vietnam
and i was mistaken it was cambodia he lied about
"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me."
(Note: Kerry has since altered his claim to say he was in Cambodia in early 1969. This claim in unsubstantiated. The story changes by the day and unfolding.)
http://www.archive-news.net/Kerry/JK_timeline.html
I didn't really want to get involved in the war," Kerry said in a little-noticed contribution to a book of Vietnam reminiscences published in 1986. "When I signed up for the swift boats, they had very little to do with the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling and that's what I thought I was going to be doing."
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml
and while i'm certai it will escape brer we have on one hand kerry dodging to run home for 3 bandaids and some batine wounds. and on the other we have mccain who was hurt severly in the ejection and tortured and who was given the option of going home as well as other preferential treatment and he turned it down . his principles lead him to stay in a pow camp as opposed to doing a "john kerry"
Post by: Scout26 on February 10, 2008, 07:36:55 PM
Quote from: wooderson
You realize that none of the individuals who were "there with Kerry" "signed their names," right?
http://www.swiftvets.com/article.php?story=20040629220813790
Quote
Swift Veterans Letter to John Kerry
Author:
Dated: Tuesday, May 04 2004 @ 10:00 PM PDT
Viewed: 68722 times
Senator Kerry,
We write from our common heritage as veterans of duty aboard Swift Boats in the Vietnam War. Indeed, you should note that a substantial number of those men who served directly with you during your four month tour in Vietnam have signed this letter. (emphasis mine)
It is our collective judgment that, upon your return from Vietnam, you grossly and knowingly distorted the conduct of the American soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen of that war (including a betrayal of many of us, without regard for the danger your actions caused us). Further, we believe that you have withheld and/or distorted material facts as to your own conduct in this war.
We believe you continue this conduct today, albeit by changing from an anti-war to a "war hero" status. You now seek to clad yourself in the very medals that you disdainfully threw away in the early years of your political career. In the process, we believe you continue a deception as to your own conduct through such tactics as the disclosure of only carefully screened portions of your military records. Both then and now, we have concluded that you have deceived the public, and in the process have betrayed honorable men, to further your personal political goals.
Your conduct is such as to raise substantive concerns as to your honesty and your ability to serve, as you currently seek, as Commander-in-Chief of the military services.
It is vital that the American public have as much information as possible about candidates for President of the United States. In various ways, you have rightly called upon President Bush to be fully accountable and to provide full disclosure. In the same spirit, now that you are the presumptive nominee of your Party, we believe it is incumbent upon you to make your total military record open to the American people.
Specifically, we the undersigned formally request that you authorize the Department of the Navy to independently release your military records (through your execution of Standard Form 180), complete and unaltered, including your military medical records. Further, we call upon you to correct the misconceptions your campaign seeks to create as to your conduct while in Vietnam. Permit the American public the opportunity to assess your military performance upon the record, and not upon campaign rhetoric.
Senator Kerry, we were there. We know the truth. We have been silent long enough. The stakes are too great, not only for America in general but, most importantly, for those who have followed us into service in Iraq and Afghanistan. We call upon you to provide a full, accurate accounting of your conduct in Vietnam.
Respectfully,
Daniel Aguilar, OSC, USNR-R
Pat Alexander
Roy Alexander*
Kenneth J. Andrews, Lt.*
Arturo Arias, QM2, USN (Ret.)
Daniel V. Armstrong, BM2*
Douglas Armstrong, Capt., USN (Ret.)
Harry Ball, Cdr., USN (Ret.)
Ray Lewis Ballew*
Sonny Barber, USN (Ret.)
John Bare
Alexander Bass*
George "M." Bates*
Richard Beers*
Paul L. Bennett, Cdr., USN*
Edward J. Lord Mort Bergin, Capt., USNR (Ret.)*
Henry Buddy Berman, QM2*
Herb Blume, Lt.
Barry Bogart, EN2*
Bob Bolger Cdr., USN* (Ret.)
M.T. Boone*
Benny Booth
David Borden*
Carl Bowman
Vern Boyd*
David M. Bradley, LCdr.*
Robert Bradley, Lt. USNR - inactive
Robert Friar Tuck Brant, Cdr. USN (Ret.)*
Kenneth Briggs*
Carlyle J. Brown, EN2*
Donald Brown, RD3
Kenneth "Buck" Buchholz, GMM3*
Michael C. Burton
Tom Burton
Joe Cahill, Jr., Lt.*
Jack L. Carlson, Lt., USNR*
James Carter
Billy Carwile, EN3*
Virgil Chambers, RD3
Jack Chenoweth, Capt., USNR, (Ret.)*
William Colgan, RD3*
Bill Collins*
Daniel K. Corbett, Lt., USNR*
James M. Corrigan, QM3*
Terry Cosstello, Capt., USN (Ret.)*
Tom Costarino
Toi Dang, GM3
John H. Davis, Lt.*
William K. Daybert,Cdr.*
James Deal*
Richard Dodson, Capt., USN (Ret.)
John Dooley, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Dale Duffield, CWO USN (Ret.)*
Robert G. Elder, Lt.*
George M. Elliott, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
Bill Eshelman
Claude Farmer, Cdr., USNR (Ret.)
Michael Fasold
William Ferris, Capt., USNR (Ret.)
Wallace Benjamin Foreman, QM1, USN (Ret.)*
William T. Ferris, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
James Foster, GMG1, USN (Ret.)
William E. Franke, Lt.jg*
Robert L. Franson, BMCS (SW)*
Alfred J. French, III, Capt., JAGC, USNR (Ret.)*
Paul F. Fulcomer, RD3*
Ray Fuller, GMG3*
Steve Fulton, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Mike Gann, Capt., USNR (Ret.)*
Steve Gardner*
Bill Garlow*
Les Garrett*
Tony Gisclair, BOSN2*
Robert Gnau, QM2*
Donald Goldberg*
Morton Golde, Cdr. USN (Ret.)*
Kenneth Golden*
Gerald L. Good, Lt. USN*
Roy Graham
John C. Graves*
Charles E. Green, ENCM, USN (Ret.)*
Dennis L. Green, GMG*
H.C. Griffin, Jr., Lt. USNR*
I.B.S. (Boyd) Groves, Jr.*
Charles R. Grutzius, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
F.L. Skip "Mustang Sally" Gunther, Lt. USN*
Louis Hahn ETCM (SW) USN (Ret.)
Bill Halpin, Lt. USNR (Ret.)*
Don C. Hammer, Lt.*
Rock Harmon*
Keith C. Harris, RD2*
Stewart M. Harris, Lt., USN*
Stirlin Harris, BM2*
Gene Hart, RD3*
Bob Hastings*
Curt Hatler*
John Hecker, RD3*
Chuck Herman, RD3*
Raul Herrera*
Tom Herritage*
Grant "Skip" Hibbard*
Bill Hickey
Rocky Hildreth*
Gary Hite
Jim Hoffmann, RD3
Roy Hoffmann, Adm., USN (Ret.)*
William P. Holden, Capt., USN (Ret.)*
Wayland Holloway, Lt. USNR*
Duane Holman, QM2
Robert Hooke, Lt.*
Bill Hoole
Andy Horne*
John Howell*
Warren Hudson*
Charles W. Hunt, EN3*
Robert Hunt*
Gail E. "Ike" Ikerd, Cdr. (Ret.)*
Bert Jeffries, QM3
Richard Jenkins
John Paul Jones, QM3*
Tom Jones*
Eddie Kajioka ENCS, USN (Ret.)*
John L. Kipp, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Thomas H. Klemash*
Kenneth Knipple, EN1*
Robert Koger, QM2*
Mike Kovanen, RD3*
Bob Kreyer, GMG2*
Jack K. Lane, GMG3*
William T. Langham*
William Lannom*
Alan Lapat
Joseph R. Lavoie, II CWO2 (BOSN), USN (Ret.)*
Louis Letson, LCdr., USN (Ret.)*
Jim Madden, RD3*
William S. Mann, Jr., Lt.jg*
Jim Marohn, GMG3*
Douglas Martin, Lt. USNR*
Tom Mason, Lt.*
Donald Matras, EN2 (Ret.)*
Thomas Mason, Lt.*
Louis Masterson*
Donald Matras, EN3
Richard McFarland, Lt. USNR*
Kenneth B. McGhee*
James McNeal, ENC*
Errol Meleander, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Jack Merkley, Lt.*
James M. Miller*
John Miller, ENC (Ret.)
Martin Miller, ENC (Ret.)*
Marc Milligan, GMG2*
Benjamin A. Montoya, QM3*
Edward Morgan, Capt. USN*
Edgar (Ed) M. Morrill, Jr.*
Tom Morrill, EN3*
Wayne H. Moser*
Kurt Moss, Lt. J.G.*
Frank Mueller*
Marc Milligan, GMG2*
Ed Mundy*
Van Odell, GMG1
Richard Olsen, Lt.*
Richard O'Mara, RD2, USN
John O'Neill, Lt., USN, (Ret.)*
Albert Owens*
Tedd Peck, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
Richard Pees, Lt., USNR
James Penkert, ENC
Thomas Petersik
Robert Phalen, GMG2*
Charles Plumley*
Joseph L. Ponder, GMG-2, USN (Ret.)*
Chuck Rabel*
Bob Reller
Steve Renfro, RD3, USN (Ret.)
Don Renshaw, EN2, USN PCF 93
Frank Rockwell
Bill Rogers, Lt.*
Patrick Sage GMG3*
Gary W. Sallee, BM2*
Burke Salsi, RD2
Joe Sandoval, GMG3*
Jimmy W. Sanford, RD3*
Robert Scattergood*
Jim Schneider, EN2*
Clair J. (Pete) Schrodt, Capt. USN (Ret.)*
Jack Shamley*
Patrick Sheedy, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Paul Shepherd, QM2*
Robert B. Shirley, Lt.jg*
William Shumadine*
Stanley G. Simonson, GMG2*
John Singleton, ENC
Darryl Skuce, GMG2*
John J. Skura*
Gerald H. Smith*
Bob Smith, GMG2
Gerald Smith
Roy Smith*
B. Tony Snesko BM2*
Mike Solhaug*
Jack Spratt, LCDR*
David R. Stefferud, Capt., USN (Ret.)*
James Steffes*
Fred E. Stith, USN (Ret.)*
Lawrence Stoneberg, Lt. USN (Ret.)*
Weymouth Symmes, RDM*
Tony Taylor
W.P. "Sonny" Taylor*
Dewey Thedford
James P. Thomas*
Eldon Thompson, Lt.jg*
Larry Thurlow, Lt.jg
Joseph Timmons, RD3, USN
Charles R. Tinstman, ENC*
Gary E. Townsend*
William F. Trainer*
Mark Tuft, Capt., USN (Ret.)
Michael Turley, BM2*
Chris J. Vedborg, RD3*
Jeffrey M. Wainscott, Lt.jg*
David Wallace*
Greg Ward, EN2*
Larry J. Waz Wasikowski, Cdr. U.S. Naval Reserve*
Pete Webster*
Steven Weekley, GMG, QM3*
George Wendell, En1, USN (Ret.)
Bruce Wentworth, Lt., USNR
George H. White, II*
R. Shelton White, Lt.*
Gary K. Whittington, EN3*
James D. Wiggins*
Tom Wilkins
Thomas A. Withey, Lt.*
Bernard Wolff*
Thomas W. Wright, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
John Wyatt, GMG*
John Yeoman, Lt.*
Author:
Dated: Tuesday, May 04 2004 @ 10:00 PM PDT
Viewed: 68722 times
Senator Kerry,
We write from our common heritage as veterans of duty aboard Swift Boats in the Vietnam War. Indeed, you should note that a substantial number of those men who served directly with you during your four month tour in Vietnam have signed this letter. (emphasis mine)
It is our collective judgment that, upon your return from Vietnam, you grossly and knowingly distorted the conduct of the American soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen of that war (including a betrayal of many of us, without regard for the danger your actions caused us). Further, we believe that you have withheld and/or distorted material facts as to your own conduct in this war.
We believe you continue this conduct today, albeit by changing from an anti-war to a "war hero" status. You now seek to clad yourself in the very medals that you disdainfully threw away in the early years of your political career. In the process, we believe you continue a deception as to your own conduct through such tactics as the disclosure of only carefully screened portions of your military records. Both then and now, we have concluded that you have deceived the public, and in the process have betrayed honorable men, to further your personal political goals.
Your conduct is such as to raise substantive concerns as to your honesty and your ability to serve, as you currently seek, as Commander-in-Chief of the military services.
It is vital that the American public have as much information as possible about candidates for President of the United States. In various ways, you have rightly called upon President Bush to be fully accountable and to provide full disclosure. In the same spirit, now that you are the presumptive nominee of your Party, we believe it is incumbent upon you to make your total military record open to the American people.
Specifically, we the undersigned formally request that you authorize the Department of the Navy to independently release your military records (through your execution of Standard Form 180), complete and unaltered, including your military medical records. Further, we call upon you to correct the misconceptions your campaign seeks to create as to your conduct while in Vietnam. Permit the American public the opportunity to assess your military performance upon the record, and not upon campaign rhetoric.
Senator Kerry, we were there. We know the truth. We have been silent long enough. The stakes are too great, not only for America in general but, most importantly, for those who have followed us into service in Iraq and Afghanistan. We call upon you to provide a full, accurate accounting of your conduct in Vietnam.
Respectfully,
Daniel Aguilar, OSC, USNR-R
Pat Alexander
Roy Alexander*
Kenneth J. Andrews, Lt.*
Arturo Arias, QM2, USN (Ret.)
Daniel V. Armstrong, BM2*
Douglas Armstrong, Capt., USN (Ret.)
Harry Ball, Cdr., USN (Ret.)
Ray Lewis Ballew*
Sonny Barber, USN (Ret.)
John Bare
Alexander Bass*
George "M." Bates*
Richard Beers*
Paul L. Bennett, Cdr., USN*
Edward J. Lord Mort Bergin, Capt., USNR (Ret.)*
Henry Buddy Berman, QM2*
Herb Blume, Lt.
Barry Bogart, EN2*
Bob Bolger Cdr., USN* (Ret.)
M.T. Boone*
Benny Booth
David Borden*
Carl Bowman
Vern Boyd*
David M. Bradley, LCdr.*
Robert Bradley, Lt. USNR - inactive
Robert Friar Tuck Brant, Cdr. USN (Ret.)*
Kenneth Briggs*
Carlyle J. Brown, EN2*
Donald Brown, RD3
Kenneth "Buck" Buchholz, GMM3*
Michael C. Burton
Tom Burton
Joe Cahill, Jr., Lt.*
Jack L. Carlson, Lt., USNR*
James Carter
Billy Carwile, EN3*
Virgil Chambers, RD3
Jack Chenoweth, Capt., USNR, (Ret.)*
William Colgan, RD3*
Bill Collins*
Daniel K. Corbett, Lt., USNR*
James M. Corrigan, QM3*
Terry Cosstello, Capt., USN (Ret.)*
Tom Costarino
Toi Dang, GM3
John H. Davis, Lt.*
William K. Daybert,Cdr.*
James Deal*
Richard Dodson, Capt., USN (Ret.)
John Dooley, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Dale Duffield, CWO USN (Ret.)*
Robert G. Elder, Lt.*
George M. Elliott, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
Bill Eshelman
Claude Farmer, Cdr., USNR (Ret.)
Michael Fasold
William Ferris, Capt., USNR (Ret.)
Wallace Benjamin Foreman, QM1, USN (Ret.)*
William T. Ferris, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
James Foster, GMG1, USN (Ret.)
William E. Franke, Lt.jg*
Robert L. Franson, BMCS (SW)*
Alfred J. French, III, Capt., JAGC, USNR (Ret.)*
Paul F. Fulcomer, RD3*
Ray Fuller, GMG3*
Steve Fulton, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Mike Gann, Capt., USNR (Ret.)*
Steve Gardner*
Bill Garlow*
Les Garrett*
Tony Gisclair, BOSN2*
Robert Gnau, QM2*
Donald Goldberg*
Morton Golde, Cdr. USN (Ret.)*
Kenneth Golden*
Gerald L. Good, Lt. USN*
Roy Graham
John C. Graves*
Charles E. Green, ENCM, USN (Ret.)*
Dennis L. Green, GMG*
H.C. Griffin, Jr., Lt. USNR*
I.B.S. (Boyd) Groves, Jr.*
Charles R. Grutzius, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
F.L. Skip "Mustang Sally" Gunther, Lt. USN*
Louis Hahn ETCM (SW) USN (Ret.)
Bill Halpin, Lt. USNR (Ret.)*
Don C. Hammer, Lt.*
Rock Harmon*
Keith C. Harris, RD2*
Stewart M. Harris, Lt., USN*
Stirlin Harris, BM2*
Gene Hart, RD3*
Bob Hastings*
Curt Hatler*
John Hecker, RD3*
Chuck Herman, RD3*
Raul Herrera*
Tom Herritage*
Grant "Skip" Hibbard*
Bill Hickey
Rocky Hildreth*
Gary Hite
Jim Hoffmann, RD3
Roy Hoffmann, Adm., USN (Ret.)*
William P. Holden, Capt., USN (Ret.)*
Wayland Holloway, Lt. USNR*
Duane Holman, QM2
Robert Hooke, Lt.*
Bill Hoole
Andy Horne*
John Howell*
Warren Hudson*
Charles W. Hunt, EN3*
Robert Hunt*
Gail E. "Ike" Ikerd, Cdr. (Ret.)*
Bert Jeffries, QM3
Richard Jenkins
John Paul Jones, QM3*
Tom Jones*
Eddie Kajioka ENCS, USN (Ret.)*
John L. Kipp, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Thomas H. Klemash*
Kenneth Knipple, EN1*
Robert Koger, QM2*
Mike Kovanen, RD3*
Bob Kreyer, GMG2*
Jack K. Lane, GMG3*
William T. Langham*
William Lannom*
Alan Lapat
Joseph R. Lavoie, II CWO2 (BOSN), USN (Ret.)*
Louis Letson, LCdr., USN (Ret.)*
Jim Madden, RD3*
William S. Mann, Jr., Lt.jg*
Jim Marohn, GMG3*
Douglas Martin, Lt. USNR*
Tom Mason, Lt.*
Donald Matras, EN2 (Ret.)*
Thomas Mason, Lt.*
Louis Masterson*
Donald Matras, EN3
Richard McFarland, Lt. USNR*
Kenneth B. McGhee*
James McNeal, ENC*
Errol Meleander, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Jack Merkley, Lt.*
James M. Miller*
John Miller, ENC (Ret.)
Martin Miller, ENC (Ret.)*
Marc Milligan, GMG2*
Benjamin A. Montoya, QM3*
Edward Morgan, Capt. USN*
Edgar (Ed) M. Morrill, Jr.*
Tom Morrill, EN3*
Wayne H. Moser*
Kurt Moss, Lt. J.G.*
Frank Mueller*
Marc Milligan, GMG2*
Ed Mundy*
Van Odell, GMG1
Richard Olsen, Lt.*
Richard O'Mara, RD2, USN
John O'Neill, Lt., USN, (Ret.)*
Albert Owens*
Tedd Peck, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
Richard Pees, Lt., USNR
James Penkert, ENC
Thomas Petersik
Robert Phalen, GMG2*
Charles Plumley*
Joseph L. Ponder, GMG-2, USN (Ret.)*
Chuck Rabel*
Bob Reller
Steve Renfro, RD3, USN (Ret.)
Don Renshaw, EN2, USN PCF 93
Frank Rockwell
Bill Rogers, Lt.*
Patrick Sage GMG3*
Gary W. Sallee, BM2*
Burke Salsi, RD2
Joe Sandoval, GMG3*
Jimmy W. Sanford, RD3*
Robert Scattergood*
Jim Schneider, EN2*
Clair J. (Pete) Schrodt, Capt. USN (Ret.)*
Jack Shamley*
Patrick Sheedy, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Paul Shepherd, QM2*
Robert B. Shirley, Lt.jg*
William Shumadine*
Stanley G. Simonson, GMG2*
John Singleton, ENC
Darryl Skuce, GMG2*
John J. Skura*
Gerald H. Smith*
Bob Smith, GMG2
Gerald Smith
Roy Smith*
B. Tony Snesko BM2*
Mike Solhaug*
Jack Spratt, LCDR*
David R. Stefferud, Capt., USN (Ret.)*
James Steffes*
Fred E. Stith, USN (Ret.)*
Lawrence Stoneberg, Lt. USN (Ret.)*
Weymouth Symmes, RDM*
Tony Taylor
W.P. "Sonny" Taylor*
Dewey Thedford
James P. Thomas*
Eldon Thompson, Lt.jg*
Larry Thurlow, Lt.jg
Joseph Timmons, RD3, USN
Charles R. Tinstman, ENC*
Gary E. Townsend*
William F. Trainer*
Mark Tuft, Capt., USN (Ret.)
Michael Turley, BM2*
Chris J. Vedborg, RD3*
Jeffrey M. Wainscott, Lt.jg*
David Wallace*
Greg Ward, EN2*
Larry J. Waz Wasikowski, Cdr. U.S. Naval Reserve*
Pete Webster*
Steven Weekley, GMG, QM3*
George Wendell, En1, USN (Ret.)
Bruce Wentworth, Lt., USNR
George H. White, II*
R. Shelton White, Lt.*
Gary K. Whittington, EN3*
James D. Wiggins*
Tom Wilkins
Thomas A. Withey, Lt.*
Bernard Wolff*
Thomas W. Wright, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
John Wyatt, GMG*
John Yeoman, Lt.*
* = signed original letter, presented May 4, 2004
"My name is Steve Gardner. I served in 1966 and 1967 on my first tour of duty in Vietnam on Swift boats, and I did my second tour in '68 and '69, involved with John Kerry in the last 2 1/2 months of my tour. The John Kerry that I know is not the John Kerry that everybody else is portraying. I served alongside him and behind him, five feet away from him in a gun tub, and watched as he made indecisive moves with our boat, put our boats in jeopardy, put our crews in jeopardy... if a man like that can't handle that 6-man crew boat, how can you expect him to be our Commander-in-Chief?"
-- Steven Gardner
Mr. Gardner signed the letter.
Post by: wooderson on February 10, 2008, 07:37:28 PM
Quote
Dude, give it up. You've proven yourself a halfway rational intellectual in other threads, this one isn't a winner, why are you standing up for this grandstanding wannabe?? Rove didn't have to lift a finger, John F Kerry is his own worst enemy. You don't have to be a political genius to defeat such an idiot. to suggest that demeans Rove's political prowess, which you all rely on as a catch all for why Dem's loose. Fistful can't be the scapegoat for everything...
If I'm going to dislike someone or attack them, I want it to be for the right reasons. There are a million reasons John Kerry is a weasel, and I'm glad to join in calling him to ground for building a career on political expediency (from Vietnam to Iraq) - but the Swift Boat stuff is dishonest campaigning of the worst sort. (Made all the worse by the arguments that they were an 'independent' body.)
And I'm not blaming Rove in particular - though I don't doubt for a moment he wasn't in on those meetings (any more than Hillary's chief advisors weren't in on the decision to smear Obama a few weeks back with the Muslim stuff). Just that since Lee Atwater (Rove having taken Atwater's style to its furthest conclusion), the GOP machine has been particularly adept at this kind of slur campaigning.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on February 10, 2008, 07:39:59 PM
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_john_kerry2.htm
7. Kerry's cousin, C. Stewart Forbes, chief executive for Colliers International, assisted in brokering a $905 million deal to develop a deep-sea port at Vung Tau, Vietnam.
True. In 1993, under the direction of CEO C. Stewart Forbes (a relative of Kerry on his mother's side), Boston-based real estate giant Colliers International brokered just such a deal between an Asian subsidiary, Colliers Jardine, and the Vietnamese government to develop the port of Vung Tau.
Post by: wooderson on February 10, 2008, 07:43:22 PM
It's really interesting because this isn't an issue up for opinions or disagreement. The facts of the matter are that no one who served with Kerry in the missions that the Swift Boaters chose to attack signed on. Only one individual who served with Kerry, period, signed on. (And even one Swift Boater who served on another boat during the engagement in which Kerry earned the Silver Star argued that Kerry did, in fact, earn that Silver Star.)
But you'll believe what you want to believe, I'm sure.
Post by: wooderson on February 10, 2008, 07:44:35 PM
Post by: wooderson on February 10, 2008, 07:53:27 PM
and i was mistaken it was cambodia he lied about
"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me."
(Note: Kerry has since altered his claim to say he was in Cambodia in early 1969. This claim in unsubstantiated. The story changes by the day and unfolding.)
"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me."
(Note: Kerry has since altered his claim to say he was in Cambodia in early 1969. This claim in unsubstantiated. The story changes by the day and unfolding.)
You're taking an anti-Kerry source as fact - do you have the specific recantation?
Kerry was based on the Mekong Delta in Dec '68-Jan '69 - which means that he may well have been in Cambodia, as operations were taking place across the border at that time.
This is his earliest quote on the matter:
"I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies who were drunk and celebrating Christmas. The absurdity of almost being killed by our own allies in a country in which President Nixon claimed there were no American troops was very real."
The problem there, of course, is that Tricky Dick wasn't President. But that has nothing to do with his presence or lack thereof.
You're taking a lot of hearsay, and assuming that the spin being put on it is fact.
Post by: Scout26 on February 10, 2008, 07:57:38 PM
Kerry would be described as devious, self-absorbing, manipulative, disdain for authority, disruptive, but the most common phrase that you'd hear is 'requires constant supervision.'"
-- Captain Charles Plumly, USN (retired)
"I was in An Thoi from June of '68 to June of '69, covering the whole period that John Kerry was there. I operated in every river, in every canal, and every off-shore patrol area in the 4th Corps area, from Cambodia all the way around to the Bo De River. I never saw, even heard of all of these so-called atrocities and things that we were supposed to have done.
This is not true. We're not standing for it. We want to set the record straight."
-- William Shumadine
"I served in Vietnam as a boat officer from June of 1968 to July of 1969. My service was three months in Coastal Division 13 out of Cat Lo, and nine months with Coastal Division 11 based in An Thoi. John Kerry was in An Thoi the same time I was. I'm here today to express the anger I have harbored for over 33 years, about being accused with my fellow shipmates of war atrocities.
All I can say is when I leave here today, I'm going down to the Wall to tell my two crew members it's not true, and that they and the other 49 Swiftees who are on the Wall were then and are still now the best."
-- Robert Brant
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on February 10, 2008, 07:59:48 PM
war criminal comment and followup waffle
Post by: Scout26 on February 10, 2008, 08:02:50 PM
Quote
Kerry was based on the Mekong Delta in Dec '68-Jan '69 - which means that he may well have been in Cambodia, as operations were taking place across the border at that time.
How about Kerry's own words from his journal
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/journal_day2.shtml
Or the sworn statements of Officers serving at that time ??
Quote
Despite the dramatic memories of his Christmas in Cambodia, Kerrys statements are complete lies. Kerry was never in Cambodia during Christmas 1968, or at all during the Vietnam War. In reality, during Christmas 1968, he was more than fifty miles away from Cambodia. Kerry was never ordered into Cambodia by anyone and would have been court-martialed had he gone there.
During Christmas 1968, Kerry was stationed at Coastal Division 13 in Cat Lo. Coastal Division 13s patrol areas extended to Sa Dec, about fifty-five miles from the Cambodian border. Areas closer than fifty-five miles to the Cambodian border in the area of the Mekong River were patrolled by PBRs, a small river patrol craft, and not by Swift Boats. Preventing border crossings was considered so important at the time that an LCU (a large, mechanized landing craft) and several PBRs were stationed to ensure that no one could cross the border.
A large sign at the border prohibited entry. Tom Anderson, Commander of River Division 531, who was in charge of the PBRs, confirmed that there were no Swifts anywhere in the area and that they would have been stopped had they appeared.
All the living commanders in Kerrys chain of commandJoe Streuhli (Commander of CosDiv 13), George Elliott (Commander of CosDiv 11), Adrian Lonsdale (Captain, USCG and Commander, Coastal Surveillance Center at An Thoi), Rear Admiral Roy Hoffmann (Commander, Coastal Surveillance Force Vietnam, CTF 115), and Rear Admiral Art Price (Commander of River Patrol Force, CTF 116)deny that Kerry was ever ordered to Cambodia. They indicate that Kerry would have been seriously disciplined or court-martialed had he gone there. At least three of the five crewmen on Kerrys PCF 44 boatBill Zaldonis, Steven Hatch, and Steve Gardnerdeny that they or their boat were ever in Cambodia. The remaining two crewmen declined to be interviewed for this book. Gardner, in particular, will never forget those days in late December when he was wounded on PCF 44, not in Cambodia, but many miles away in Vietnam.
The story is a total preposterous fabrication by Kerry. Exhibit 8 is an affidavit by the Commander of the Swift boats in Vietnam, Admiral Roy Hoffmann, stating that Kerry's claim to be in Cambodia for Christmas Eve and Christmas of 1968 is a total lie. If necessary, similar affidavits are available from the entire chain of command. In reality, Kerry was at Sa Dec -- easily locatable on any map more than fifty miles from Cambodia. Kerry himself inadvertently admits that he was in Sa Dec for Christmas Eve and Christmas and not in Cambodia, as he had stated for so many years on the Senate Floor, in the newspapers, and elsewhere. Exhibit 27, Tour, pp. 213-219. Sa Dec is hardly "close" to the Cambodian border. In reality, far from being ordered secretly to Cambodia, Kerry spent a pleasant night at Sa Dec with "visions of sugar plums" dancing in his head. Exhibit 27, p. 219. At Sa Dec where the Swift boat patrol area ended, there were many miles of other boats (PBR's) leading to the Cambodian border. There were also gunboats on the border to prevent any crossing. If Kerry tried to get through, he would have been arrested. Obviously, Kerry has hardly been honest about his service in Vietnam
During Christmas 1968, Kerry was stationed at Coastal Division 13 in Cat Lo. Coastal Division 13s patrol areas extended to Sa Dec, about fifty-five miles from the Cambodian border. Areas closer than fifty-five miles to the Cambodian border in the area of the Mekong River were patrolled by PBRs, a small river patrol craft, and not by Swift Boats. Preventing border crossings was considered so important at the time that an LCU (a large, mechanized landing craft) and several PBRs were stationed to ensure that no one could cross the border.
A large sign at the border prohibited entry. Tom Anderson, Commander of River Division 531, who was in charge of the PBRs, confirmed that there were no Swifts anywhere in the area and that they would have been stopped had they appeared.
All the living commanders in Kerrys chain of commandJoe Streuhli (Commander of CosDiv 13), George Elliott (Commander of CosDiv 11), Adrian Lonsdale (Captain, USCG and Commander, Coastal Surveillance Center at An Thoi), Rear Admiral Roy Hoffmann (Commander, Coastal Surveillance Force Vietnam, CTF 115), and Rear Admiral Art Price (Commander of River Patrol Force, CTF 116)deny that Kerry was ever ordered to Cambodia. They indicate that Kerry would have been seriously disciplined or court-martialed had he gone there. At least three of the five crewmen on Kerrys PCF 44 boatBill Zaldonis, Steven Hatch, and Steve Gardnerdeny that they or their boat were ever in Cambodia. The remaining two crewmen declined to be interviewed for this book. Gardner, in particular, will never forget those days in late December when he was wounded on PCF 44, not in Cambodia, but many miles away in Vietnam.
The story is a total preposterous fabrication by Kerry. Exhibit 8 is an affidavit by the Commander of the Swift boats in Vietnam, Admiral Roy Hoffmann, stating that Kerry's claim to be in Cambodia for Christmas Eve and Christmas of 1968 is a total lie. If necessary, similar affidavits are available from the entire chain of command. In reality, Kerry was at Sa Dec -- easily locatable on any map more than fifty miles from Cambodia. Kerry himself inadvertently admits that he was in Sa Dec for Christmas Eve and Christmas and not in Cambodia, as he had stated for so many years on the Senate Floor, in the newspapers, and elsewhere. Exhibit 27, Tour, pp. 213-219. Sa Dec is hardly "close" to the Cambodian border. In reality, far from being ordered secretly to Cambodia, Kerry spent a pleasant night at Sa Dec with "visions of sugar plums" dancing in his head. Exhibit 27, p. 219. At Sa Dec where the Swift boat patrol area ended, there were many miles of other boats (PBR's) leading to the Cambodian border. There were also gunboats on the border to prevent any crossing. If Kerry tried to get through, he would have been arrested. Obviously, Kerry has hardly been honest about his service in Vietnam
Yep, it's a conspiracy...... They're all lying and Kerry is only one telling the truth....... What's the flavor of the Kool-Aid your drinking ??
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on February 10, 2008, 08:05:16 PM
more on the cambodia windy
Post by: wooderson on February 10, 2008, 08:24:42 PM
That journal entry - which you apparently take as fact, since you're offering it as evidence - makes repeated mention of moving close to the Cambodian border. Which jibes with the statements of those who actually served with Kerry - they did not knowingly cross the border, but were working on it and may have actually passed over. And according to other statements, the swift boats were working with PBRs at the time.
Note that in the quote repeated, Kerry has not claimed to be on a mission into Cambodia, or entering combat in Cambodia or anything else.
As a final note, if you're going to directly quote a group in order to support that group's argument, you should cite your source. I am shocked, shocked I say, that the Swift Boat Troofer website echoes the Swift Boat Troofer party line.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on February 10, 2008, 08:49:18 PM
Post by: wooderson on February 10, 2008, 08:51:07 PM
You made references to two recantations made by Kerry - but have not yet found the specific statements made or the specific recantations.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on February 10, 2008, 08:53:31 PM
Post by: Gewehr98 on February 10, 2008, 09:38:26 PM
Quote
The baaah is meant to be insulting. If you believed the swift boat veterans without question then you are a sheep. If you do not like being a sheep, then look up some time. Dont defend being a sheep.
Well, let's see. Somebody in this thread is hurling insults.
Anybody care to guess who that is, considering they took particular delight in admitting to it.
Word to the wise, Herr Brer - folks who insult others on this forum don't last terribly long as members.
This is a CIVIL place to discuss politics. I don't care if one loathes Republicans, Democrats, or Independents. We discuss topics in a polite fashion here, or we invite those incapable of doing so to vent their spleens elsewhere.
Consider this a warning. Capiche'?
Post by: Perd Hapley on February 10, 2008, 11:24:58 PM
2. Bush's service or lack thereof is immaterial to the issue of Kerry's service, or McCain's.
3. Tecumseh's charge is that Republicans are hypocritical to place such importance on McCain's military record, when they scoffed at Kerry's.
- This assumes that McCain supporters are inordinately fixated on his military service. But this assumption is merely a smear tactic.
- Even if true, there is no hypocrisy involved, because no one has come forward to challenge McCain's military record, as Kerry's has been challenged.
4.
Quote from: brer
If the swift boaters had made their comments before Kerry tried for election, I might have believed them. But the way they have been presented is symptomatic of having been bought off.
Actually, John O'Neill mixed it up with Kerry as early as 1971.
http://horse.he.net/~swiftpow/index.php?topic=KerryONeill
Post by: HankB on February 11, 2008, 01:48:11 AM
John Kerry made a public spectacle of himself by throwing his medals away in front of cameras.
Yet once he became a senator, the medals he threw away surprisingly showed up in his office.
When confronted, he admitted he threw someone else's medals away, NOT his own as he'd claimed.
Since he lied about something that simple, why should he have ANY credibility when he says something else related to his service record - especially when he STEADFASTLY REFUSES to release them?
(BTW, there aren't many real, dyed-in-the-wool Bush supporters here - repeatedly bringing in "shrub" is just a transparent attempt to deflect criticism directed at Kerry.)
Post by: brer on February 11, 2008, 03:24:52 AM
I understand the warning.
BTW is is spelled capisce. Capisce?
Post by: Dannyboy on February 11, 2008, 03:37:21 AM
Post by: Dannyboy on February 11, 2008, 03:50:28 AM
BTW is is spelled capisce. Capisce?
Actually, is is spelled "is." If you're gonna be a smart ass, at least check your stuff first.
Post by: Sergeant Bob on February 11, 2008, 07:06:05 AM
BTW is is spelled capisce. Capisce?
Actually, is is spelled "is." If you're gonna be a smart ass, at least check your stuff first.Twoshay!
Post by: James Fitzer on February 11, 2008, 07:25:17 AM
Who the hell cares?
No, seriously... WHO. THE. HELL. CARES.
First of all, Kerry isn't running. Why stir the pot with stupid damned hypotheticals.
Secondly, a man's military service and his political record are two different animals. I know plenty of outstanding soldiers who I wouldn't trust to manage a liquor store, much less run a country.
Third, why the hell are we feeding the trolls.
Jesus people... this is pathetic. For the love of god, close this stupid thread before we all get stupider as a result of reading it.
Post by: Perd Hapley on February 11, 2008, 07:38:40 AM
Quote from: HankB
John Kerry made a public spectacle of himself by throwing his medals away in front of cameras.
Yet once he became a senator, the medals he threw away surprisingly showed up in his office.
When confronted, he admitted he threw someone else's medals away, NOT his own as he'd claimed.
Yet once he became a senator, the medals he threw away surprisingly showed up in his office.
When confronted, he admitted he threw someone else's medals away, NOT his own as he'd claimed.
I'm not a big military geek, so maybe of you grizzled old veterans can help me out with something.
When I was highly-decorated soldier, my medals had two components. On the one hand, they were words on paper, stating that I had earned the highly-coveted Army Service Ribbon, etc.
On the other hand, they were ribbons and metal discs, and such. Sometimes, I was given the physical bit of fruit salad. Sometimes, I had to go and buy it, in order to wear it on my Class A's. I think I lost one or two of them, and had to buy replacements at the Clothing Sales store. The question is this: When Kerry threw some physical bits of fruit salad (PBFS) over the fence, does it matter whether they were the same items given to him, or which he bought? If they were someone else's PBFS, that wouldn't matter, would it? If he said they were his, then he has rejected his own decorations, even if his PBFS were still lying about in his sock drawer.
If he hung up some medals on his wall, that doesn't mean he's lying about throwing them over the fence, right? They're just PBFS that are easily replaced from a number of mail-order catalogs. The words on paper are what really counts, aren't they? So the problem would be, not so much that he lied, as that he apparently rejected his awards, then pretended that it had never happened.
Post by: Tecumseh on February 11, 2008, 08:25:35 AM
Post by: James Fitzer on February 11, 2008, 08:27:52 AM
Ugh
Can you provide at least seventy-five (75) sources for the postulation that he's hated? With footnotes, if you please.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on February 11, 2008, 08:29:40 AM
I would not call Worldnetdaily an unbiased source. So people hate the fact that he spoke out against the war. Did he not have the right to? I do believe he fought for that right, didn't he. Why is he hated for that?
i know this comes as a shock but while a reserve officer kerry did not have the right to meet with and "negotiate" with the enemy. its so different than the rules in school its confusing.of course then kerry might not have been granted his place of honor in the enemy war museum. it does make him special though as far as i know hes the only us "hero" so honored by the enemy.
Post by: Tecumseh on February 11, 2008, 08:31:21 AM
Post by: James Fitzer on February 11, 2008, 08:32:30 AM
Post by: Bogie on February 11, 2008, 08:58:24 AM
Post by: Perd Hapley on February 11, 2008, 09:23:23 AM
Post by: Bogie on February 11, 2008, 09:29:14 AM
And stuff be fallin' offa that ruck most chop-chop...
Post by: wooderson on February 11, 2008, 09:31:17 AM
As for 'negotiating with the enemy' - you are once again inappropriately vague.
Post by: Paddy on February 11, 2008, 09:32:10 AM
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on February 11, 2008, 09:35:35 AM
What rules are you talking about? Can you show me some information about this enemy war museum with a shrine to John Kerry?
ahh college boys up to usual semantic games. only person used word shrine still smells ofsimilac.
the rukes governing the conduct of a naval officer are fairly strict stricter than your schools honor code. and meeting with foreign negotiators/agents independantly is a bozo no no.
heres honest john in the room honoring those who aided vietnam in their struggle against the us
http://www.wintersoldier.com/staticpages/index.php?page=20040604194804799
this was prior to his cousins "lucky" real estate deal
Post by: K Frame on February 11, 2008, 09:36:55 AM
This thread has been circling the bowl for quite awhile, so it's my pleasure to pull the chain and send it down stream.