Author Topic: Amusing: Starting a big radial aircraft engine  (Read 6219 times)

230RN

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Amusing: Starting a big radial aircraft engine
« on: March 10, 2015, 03:01:45 AM »
Found this amusing description of starting a large radial aircraft engine.

From:
http://www.acmp.com/blog/the-thrills-of-starting-giant-radial-engines.html

Quote
Radial Starting (Wright R-3350 engine on an AD-6) US Navy Douglas AD-6

Be sure you drain both the sumps. Look out the left side of the oily cockpit canopy and notice a very nervous person holding a huge fire bottle. Nod to this person. He could save your butt in case of a fire.

1. Crack throttle about one-quarter of an inch.
 2. Battery on
 3. Mags on
 4. Fuel boost on
 5. Hit starter button (The four bladed 13′ 6″ prop will start a slow turn)
 6. Begin to bounce your finger on top of the primer button. This act requires finesse and style. It is much like a ballet performance.
 The engine must be seduced and caressed into starting. (Amen to that, NG)
 7. Act one will begin: Belching, banging, rattling, backfiring, spluttering, flame and black smoke from the exhaust shooting out about three feet. (Fire bottle person is very pale and has the nozzle at the ready position).
 8. When the engine begins to “catch” on the primer. Move the mixture to full rich.The flames from the exhaust will stop and white smoke will come out. (Fire bottle guy relaxes a bit) You will hear a wonderful throaty roar that is like music to the ears..
 a. Enjoy the macho smell of engine oil, hydraulic fluid and pilot sweat.
 9. Immediately check the oil pressure and hydraulic gages.
 10. The entire aircraft is now shaking and shuttering from the torque of the engine and RPM of the huge four-bladed prop.
 a. The engine is an 18 cylinder R-3350 that develops 2,700 HP.
 11. Close cowl flaps to warm up the engine for taxi.
 12. Once you glance around at about 300 levers, gauges and gadgets, call the tower and taxi to the duty (active) runway.

Viz, and to wit (on a test stand):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOAPkEWNO-o
« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 03:08:43 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Firethorn

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Re: Amusing: Starting a big radial aircraft engine
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2015, 03:43:05 AM »
I watched the video and was like 'Why did the prop stop and reverse direction?', then I remembered frame matching rpm...

 :laugh:

Hawkmoon

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Re: Amusing: Starting a big radial aircraft engine
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2015, 09:07:59 AM »
"Because I can, that's why."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaqjv0HbxyE

Now THAT's a tractor. I wouldn't have to cut my grass, the engine would just inhale it.
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RocketMan

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Re: Amusing: Starting a big radial aircraft engine
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2015, 09:53:10 AM »
Sometime in June of '86, Sentimental Journey is sitting on the parking stand at Salem Municipal Airport.  We're in week two of our annual barnstorming trip around the country.  A couple of TV crews from Portland stations are there, and we're going to give them rides to Hillsboro.  A bit of a tight schedule as they need to get their stories up for their five o'clock newscasts.
The pilot is cranking her up while I stand with the fire bottle out front.  No. 1 starts fine and settles into an idle.  No. 2 cranks and starts; it is looking good.  Of course there is lots of the customary blue oil smoke that you get from round engines when you first start them.  The media folks have no clue that it's normal of course, so they are a bit wide-eyed about it.
Co-pilot starts to crank No. 3.  Nothing, not a pop out of it.  Try again, still nothing.  "No fuel pressure", yells the co-pilot through his open window.  "The boost pump isn't working."  The pilot shuts down number one and two on the left side and I put down the fire bottle and head for my tool box in radio room of SJ.
A couple of minutes later, screwdriver in hand, I have the Zeus fasteners loose and the fairing over the bottom of the boost pump drops away on its hinge.  I tell the co-pilot to hit the boost pump switch.  Nothing, no sound at all, and the end of the pump motor shaft isn’t turning.  No wonder No. 2 won't start.  A Wright Cyclone R-1820 needs fuel boost pressure to start; it’s just not going to happen without it.
I grab a 3/8ths inch nut driver and slip it over the nut on the end of the boost pump motor shaft.  I give it a turn, or try to anyway, and it doesn't budge.  The motor shaft is locked up tight.  Not a good thing to find this late in the day.  Replacing the boost pump would put us a day behind on the tour, and we'd look kind of silly to the media folks.  We need them to do their stories so the public will turn out at the three barnstorming stops we're making in the Portland area over the next few days.  Got to pay the bills.
Using the nut driver, I try to rock the motor shaft back and forth, but it’s jammed tight.  I have the co-pilot hit the switch a couple of times.  No joy.  Back to the nut driver and rocking the shaft.  Co-pilot hits the switch again.  Nada.  Damn, not looking good.
I recall some persuasive language that I learned in the Marines, thinking it might come in handy.  Just as I start to tell the boost pump what I think of its dubious parentage, its lack of divine qualities, and my general overall displeasure with its lack of cooperation, I see movement to my right.  A TV camera is pushing over my shoulder, literally next to my ear.  Some very foul language instantly turns into, “Golly gee, this darn thing just won’t turn.”  The change was so quick that I nearly sprained my tongue.
About that time the pump shaft started to turn.  A crunching sound and a corresponding vibration in the nut driver handle told me that there had been a blockage in the pump impeller.  Whatever it was had broken up and the pump began to turn freely.
Tools put away and fire bottle in hand again, we went through the start-up procedure again and got all four mills turning.  The media was loaded aboard Sentimental Journey, all of them jockeying for the best seats in the nose or at the side gun positions.  I climbed in, secured the hatch and found a place to sit.
Off we went into the wild blue yonder.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Amusing: Starting a big radial aircraft engine
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2015, 10:57:22 AM »
I am so jealous right now


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

tokugawa

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Re: Amusing: Starting a big radial aircraft engine
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2015, 11:38:40 AM »
A chuck of something big enough to block a pump got into the fuel? Yikes.

RocketMan

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Re: Amusing: Starting a big radial aircraft engine
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2015, 12:39:56 PM »
A chuck of something big enough to block a pump got into the fuel? Yikes.

Yep.  Had us going a bit, too.  But the fuel filter is downstream from the pump, fortunately.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

K Frame

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Re: Amusing: Starting a big radial aircraft engine
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2015, 04:16:29 PM »
How about starting four of them?

While still attached to a vintage B-24?

Oh my....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOGow1WZIUU
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230RN

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Re: Amusing: Starting a big radial aircraft engine
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2015, 04:19:42 PM »
That was hilarious, RocketMan.  Especially the "Some very foul language instantly turns into, 'Golly gee, this darn thing just won’t turn.'  The change was so quick that I nearly sprained my tongue" part.

Quick side question.  I hear that "click-clack" as many round engines are cranking.  At first I thought it was some kind of bearing knock, but someone said it has something to do with the magnetos without further explanation, and I always wondered about that.  You can hear it in the first part of the OP video.  Anyone know?

Terry
« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 04:28:47 PM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Sergeant Bob

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Re: Amusing: Starting a big radial aircraft engine
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2015, 09:53:25 PM »
Awesome stuff Rocketman!
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

I already have canned butter, buying more. Canned blueberries, some pancake making dry goods and the end of the world is gonna be delicious.  -French G

HeroHog

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Re: Amusing: Starting a big radial aircraft engine
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2015, 12:44:47 PM »
If they are like Vertex Racing Mags there is a spring loaded device that gets wound and releases to spin the inducer fast enough to generate a hot spark. Maybe that's it?
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RocketMan

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Re: Amusing: Starting a big radial aircraft engine
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2015, 07:37:16 PM »
I've always thought the sounds were just the valve train operating, Terry.  Never gave it much thought, honestly.
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Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

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Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

230RN

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Re: Amusing: Starting a big radial aircraft engine
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2015, 08:02:43 PM »
Well, it happens twice every revolution while cranking to do... whatever it is they have to do before the actual starting.

I hear a click-clank, slight pause, another click-clank.

I wonder if HeroHog is on the right track, since the "explanation" I heard was that it had something (undefined) to do with the magnetos.

No big deal, just my cat-curiosity.

Terry
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

RocketMan

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Re: Amusing: Starting a big radial aircraft engine
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2015, 09:18:20 PM »
Quote
Well, it happens twice every revolution while cranking to do... whatever it is they have to do before the actual starting.

Those early rotations before starting are to clear oil from the lower cylinders.  It prevents hydraulic lock that can break expensive stuff in the engine.  We did that by hand on the SJ, twelve blades past the six o'clock position before cranking.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

230RN

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Re: Amusing: Starting a big radial aircraft engine
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2015, 03:33:20 AM »
No, I knew about that and in fact saw a video of one engine with drain valves in the cylinder heads.  Pilot turned the prop until a cylinder was "down" and opened the little valve to let the oil out.

My google -fu is bad, mainly because half the time I can't dope out how to ask the question, but I did find this after digging around on and off since my last post.  It refers to a "clank" when setting the timing on a radial.  It's about 5/8ths down the page at:

http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/184370-1.html?redirected=1

Quote
Now that you have properly positioned the engine to fire the number-one cylinder at the correct time before top center (BTC), you'll need to attach a timing light to the magnetos in order to verify that the points are just beginning to open.

If your magnetos are equipped with impulse couplings, be sure to "unload" the impulse by turning the prop past TDC and listen for the snap (clank may be more descriptive) before setting your engine to the proper firing position. Failure to do this will make it impossible to set the timing correctly.

Sooo, apparently there is a clank or maybe a pair of clanks for each cylinder which might be drowned out once the engine coughs to life --at least with "impulse coupling" magnetos.  

Whatever those are.  

I guess I have to research that now, too.  

I guess the "two clanks" per prop blade (which I mentioned above in that video) happened when each cylinder passed the two magneto-ignition positions, not when each prop blade passed a certain point.  

What confused me was that the two clanks did not seem to depend on propeller position. It might have depended on reduction gear ratios, if there was a reduction gear on that engine.  You know, say, 2.35 revs of the engine crankshaft for each rev of the prop.  

Sorry to bother you guys with this, but I figured someone would know offhand.

Terry, Groundlubber
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 03:49:33 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

RocketMan

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Re: Amusing: Starting a big radial aircraft engine
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2015, 06:37:32 AM »
Interesting stuff, Terry.  We know a little more than we did before thanks to your google-fu.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

230RN

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Re: Amusing: Starting a big radial aircraft engine
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2015, 02:52:29 PM »
Found it !  The source of the magneto clicks/clanks.

(As if you weren't bored enough already.)

Real short, but the clanks are quite audible:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rzhk_MADhvg


WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

RocketMan

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Re: Amusing: Starting a big radial aircraft engine
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2015, 03:13:12 PM »
So much for my thinking it was the valve train.  Thanks for the update, Terry.  That was pretty neat.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

Brad Johnson

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Re: Amusing: Starting a big radial aircraft engine
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2015, 05:53:15 PM »
Cold R985. Scrolling commentary is good for a laugh or three. Sound synch is totally whacked, but you still get the drift.

https://youtu.be/EkcX0KGIBwk

Brad
« Last Edit: March 20, 2015, 05:56:59 PM by Brad Johnson »
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230RN

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Re: Amusing: Starting a big radial aircraft engine
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2015, 08:30:17 PM »
Hah-ha-hahhhhh !

I think it was gagging on its own smoke in that hangar.

And then they had to pull it out to the runway with the tractor, right?

Antonov AN-2 electric intertia startup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raG-EckvucI

Somehow reminds me of a girl I dated between marriages... just somehow.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2015, 08:58:54 PM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

RocketMan

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Re: Amusing: Starting a big radial aircraft engine
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2015, 12:29:12 AM »
Cold R985. Scrolling commentary is good for a laugh or three. Sound synch is totally whacked, but you still get the drift.

https://youtu.be/EkcX0KGIBwk

Round engine pr0n! Yeah!

Somehow reminds me of a girl I dated between marriages... just somehow.

Had trouble getting her started, didja?   =D
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

230RN

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Re: Amusing: Starting a big radial aircraft engine
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2015, 01:09:12 AM »
^ Ehhhh, no.  One word:  multiple.

Watch it again with that in mind.

I almost got evicted from all the ummm.... one word: expressions.

Leading up to one loud ummm.... finish.

That's about as swave and subtile as I can get.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 01:17:53 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.