Author Topic: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil  (Read 36295 times)

red headed stranger

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Re: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil
« Reply #125 on: February 13, 2013, 03:01:08 PM »
"Deployed 7 burners" per the police radio transcripts.

Yup.  Waco. 

Indeed.  7 canisters in such a small structure were not needed if they only using the "burners" as lachrymators.  

Moreover, the authorities have been signaling that Dorner wasn't going be taken alive, what with the Chief and Mayor referring to him as "murderer," "terrorist," and "trained assassin," rather than "suspect" and with the two pretty heavy-handed ambushes on innocents.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil
« Reply #126 on: February 13, 2013, 03:04:45 PM »

Moreover, the authorities have been signaling that Dorner wasn't going be taken alive, what with the Chief and Mayor referring to him as "murderer," "terrorist," and "trained assassin," rather than "suspect" and with the two pretty heavy-handed ambushes on innocents.

I don't understand why California State Troopers (or whatever the state-level law enforcement agency is) didn't take this over from the get-go after the bad shoots and the cop on cop nature of this violence.

LAPD should have never been allowed to retain jurisdiction on this case.

Giving them free rein on this matter is like allowing a pitbull to savage a poodle to death that bit the pitbull.  Allowing that deliberately makes you the figurative redneck dogfighting breeder that approves of that behavior.  Tells me not only LAPD is trash, but that law enforcement in CA in general is trash.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil
« Reply #127 on: February 13, 2013, 03:12:40 PM »
I don't understand why California State Troopers (or whatever the state-level law enforcement agency is) didn't take this over from the get-go after the bad shoots and the cop on cop nature of this violence.

LAPD should have never been allowed to retain jurisdiction on this case.

Giving them free rein on this matter is like allowing a pitbull to savage a poodle to death that bit the pitbull.  Allowing that deliberately makes you the figurative redneck dogfighting breeder that approves of that behavior.  Tells me not only LAPD is trash, but that law enforcement in CA in general is trash.

wait  you think lapd did the final shoot out?
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roo_ster

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Re: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil
« Reply #128 on: February 13, 2013, 03:19:53 PM »
Several observations from this whole mess.

1. Dorner did not plan any of this beyond the initial shootings.  He had neither well-planned egress routes nor a series of offensive actions.  He executed his last actions on this earth like the rest of his life: plodding along with periodic screw ups to punctuate his inadequacy.

2. America and America's LEOs have yet to face a threat that is both smart and determined to put a hurting on LEOs or authorities.

3. American LEOs, if they are the object of some violent criminal, will shoot up and burn down and smash into people and property indiscriminately in fear and rage.  Best course of action for the rest of us is to steer clear.  For my part, if something like this went down locally, wife & kids are displacing to grandpa's house eight hours away.

4. When America's LEOs finally do face an adversary that is both smart and determined to put a hurting on LEOs, a lot of LEOs will die.  They are not very good at this sort of thing, when all the odds are not stacked in their favor.  We have had indications of this, most especially SWAT/tactical teams without a clue regarding sound tactics, techniques, and procedures.  Presumably, those SWATties are the best in that department.  If they are not up to snuff, the average patrolman is not likely to be accused of adequacy.  (Now, some tac teams in some jurisdictions are good, some are very good.  They look like the exception, though.)
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil
« Reply #129 on: February 13, 2013, 03:22:33 PM »
I know it was San Bernardino County Sheriff's Office that was providing the bulk of the officers for the manhunt.

I do not know how many LAPD detectives or brass were involved in directing that manhunt, or assisting in it.  Or planning final confrontations.

I highly doubt LAPD was absent from this operation.
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Re: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil
« Reply #130 on: February 13, 2013, 03:25:26 PM »
Quote
1. Dorner did not plan any of this beyond the initial shootings.  He had neither well-planned egress routes nor a series of offensive actions.  He executed his last actions on this earth like the rest of his life: plodding along with periodic screw ups to punctuate his inadequacy.

The manifest was purely a cover after the murderers. I think at most his plans extended into taking his truck up into the rural area and trying to "bug out into the mountains" (reference the camping gear they found in the truck) and that all went to *expletive deleted*it when he broke his axle on the way up towards his Bug out location. After that...he was just making it up as he went along.

Quote
4. When America's LEOs finally do face an adversary that is both smart and determined to put a hurting on LEOs, a lot of LEOs will die.  They are not very good at this sort of thing, when all the odds are not stacked in their favor.  We have had indications of this, most especially SWAT/tactical teams without a clue regarding sound tactics, techniques, and procedures.  Presumably, those SWATties are the best in that department.  If they are not up to snuff, the average patrolman is not likely to be accused of adequacy.  (Now, some tac teams in some jurisdictions are good, some are very good.  They look like the exception, though.)

SWAT trains mainly for CQB entry into structures, active shooter, and hostage standoffs. Rural ops for example, are weak to non-existant skills. Only so much training time can be devoted after all, and rural ops like this, especially massive rural ops, just aren't that common.

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Blakenzy

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Re: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil
« Reply #131 on: February 13, 2013, 03:25:54 PM »
Police spokesperson Officer Friendly  :police: answers:
So where do you personally draw that line? >The thin blue line.

Do the cops have to positively identify that the suspect is in the dwelling in question? >No.
What other indiscriminate weapons should they be allowed to use? >What is available?
Should the cops be able to just chuck a fragmentation hand grenade through a window? > Only if equipped with a NY-2 weight trigger pin.
If that's deemed "too dangerous", can they hit the building with an RPG? >RPGs are for trrrsts.
How about mortar fire? >If DHS granted money will cover their purchase...hells yea!
An airstrike?  A drone strike? >We're getting there, patience.
Are they responsible for the financial liability of destroying a third parties property? >Officer safety.
Are they responsible for other collateral property damage they cause? >Officer safety.
Are they responsible for murder if they use indiscriminate weapons and kill an innocent? >Officer safety.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil
« Reply #132 on: February 13, 2013, 04:16:47 PM »
So where do you personally draw that line?

Do the cops have to positively identify that the suspect is in the dwelling in question?
What other indiscriminate weapons should they be allowed to use?
Should the cops be able to just chuck a fragmentation hand grenade through a window?
If that's deemed "too dangerous", can they hit the building with an RPG?
How about mortar fire?
An airstrike?  A drone strike?
Are they responsible for the financial liability of destroying a third parties property?
Are they responsible for other collateral property damage they cause?
Are they responsible for murder if they use indiscriminate weapons and kill an innocent?

They can do whatever the hell they want.
1) "qualified immunity"
2) "officer safety"  (nobody gives a damn about public safety anymore)
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roo_ster

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Re: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil
« Reply #133 on: February 13, 2013, 05:09:52 PM »
SWAT trains mainly for CQB entry into structures, active shooter, and hostage standoffs. Rural ops for example, are weak to non-existant skills. Only so much training time can be devoted after all, and rural ops like this, especially massive rural ops, just aren't that common.

Yes, and I claim in point #4 that many SWAT/tac teams are inept at "CQB entry into structures, active shooter, and hostage standoffs."  You know, the stuff for which they the taxpayers bought all that hardware. 

When folks post "SWAT/no-knock gone wild" videos and vent spleen about the potential hero of the revolution who just got ventilated, my initial scrutiny is at the officers and how they conduct themselves.  There does seem to be a correlation between bad/questionable raids and SWATties who have no understanding of CQB TTPs.  These LEOs are not expecting much in the way of danger or do not know how to properly execute.  These departments' LEOs are going to get ate up by trained, motivated, and smart adversaries.  If ever such adversaries show up.
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roo_ster

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Blakenzy

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Re: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil
« Reply #134 on: February 13, 2013, 05:12:14 PM »
"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both"

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Scout26

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Re: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil
« Reply #136 on: February 13, 2013, 05:36:25 PM »
A29,

I think you need to re-check your copy of the Constitution.  Nowhere in there is the .gov (or the police) empowered to summarily execute anyone for any reason without first being tired in front of an impartial jury.  That's the police's job, to bring people before the bar of justice.  Not to act as judge, jury, and executioner.   Allowing them (the police) to get away with it, even in this case, creates a very dangerous precedent.  

Yes, even if he's shooting a .50 at you.  You pull back, form a perimeter and wait him out.   Yes, even if he had hostages.  Even if he is the world's biggest dirtbag.

It is never acceptable for the police to burn a suspect to death.  You wait them out.   The PD here got killl-happy.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 05:43:03 PM by scout26 »
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cordex

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Re: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil
« Reply #137 on: February 13, 2013, 05:38:59 PM »
Looks like the beat cops are issued Mini-14s in SoCal.

lupinus

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Re: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil
« Reply #138 on: February 13, 2013, 05:54:14 PM »
A29,

I think you need to re-check your copy of the Constitution.  Nowhere in there is the .gov (or the police) empowered to summarily execute anyone for any reason without first being tired in front of an impartial jury.  That's the police's job, to bring people before the bar of justice.  Not to act as judge, jury, and executioner.   Allowing them (the police) to get away with it, even in this case, creates a very dangerous precedent. 

Yes, even if he's shooting a .50 at you.  You pull back, form a perimeter and wait him out.   Yes, even if he had hostages.  Even if he is the world's biggest dirtbag.

It is never acceptable for the police to burn a suspect to death.  You wait them out.   The PD here got killl-happy.
This and....everything else of a similar viewpoint.

You wait him out at an appropriate distance. You negotiate his surrender. If you want to get frisky, you send in a SWAT team. These are police officers, their job is to apprehend the suspected criminal and conduct an investigation. Lethal force is a matter of last resort and self defense. Military units offensively kill people holed up in buildings, not the police.

Today is a cabin in the woods. Tomorrow it's a firebombed block in Philide...oh, wait.
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil
« Reply #139 on: February 13, 2013, 06:08:16 PM »
This and....everything else of a similar viewpoint.

You wait him out at an appropriate distance. You negotiate his surrender. If you want to get frisky, you send in a SWAT team. These are police officers, their job is to apprehend the suspected criminal and conduct an investigation. Lethal force is a matter of last resort and self defense. Military units offensively kill people holed up in buildings, not the police.

Today is a cabin in the woods. Tomorrow it's a firebombed block in Philide...oh, wait.

Exactly. And if they're so worried about their safety, they probably should have chosen a diffrent line of work. It's one thing to try to minimize risk to officer safety. It's a whole 'nother thing to use it as an excuse to not do their jobs.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil
« Reply #140 on: February 13, 2013, 06:11:29 PM »
sounds like a great way to lose a fight. guy called the tune  set the rules  asymmetrical warfare etc.  only a retard would fight that anything other than full bore. great way to get folks killed
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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roo_ster

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Re: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil
« Reply #141 on: February 13, 2013, 06:48:05 PM »
sounds like a great way to lose a fight. guy called the tune  set the rules  asymmetrical warfare etc.  only a retard would fight that anything other than full bore. great way to get folks killed

They want to go full bore killing the other guy, let them volunteer 4x and do a hitch in the Rangers. Police forces are not military forces and have a diferent mission.  Not a single one of them was prevented from quitting if they felt they were not up to the mission the day dorner started his killing.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil
« Reply #142 on: February 13, 2013, 06:54:07 PM »
They want to go full bore killing the other guy, let them volunteer 4x and do a hitch in the Rangers. Police forces are not military forces and have a diferent mission.  Not a single one of them was prevented from quitting if they felt they were not up to the mission the day dorner started his killing.

lets see you have a guy with a 50 pinned down in daylight. your plan for success is to pull back? in that terrain?  throw a perimeter of cops from different jurisdictions out there to contain him?  how far back does that perimeter have to be?  and what are the chances of him not slipping through it? or of friendly fire accidents?      wanna call that one a mulligan?  he set the rules   and he died by em   
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Jamisjockey

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Re: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil
« Reply #143 on: February 13, 2013, 07:33:31 PM »
lets see you have a guy with a 50 pinned down in daylight. your plan for success is to pull back? in that terrain?  throw a perimeter of cops from different jurisdictions out there to contain him?  how far back does that perimeter have to be?  and what are the chances of him not slipping through it? or of friendly fire accidents?      wanna call that one a mulligan?  he set the rules   and he died by em   

Because mere possession of a fifty makes you a supreme sniper who can make thousand yard headshots on moving targets, right?
The typical fifty is large and unwieldy, an not very useful for average shooter. 
They pinned him down and a fire resulted.
Why is this suddenly a point of contention?  Do you just like starting arguments?
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geronimotwo

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Re: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil
« Reply #144 on: February 13, 2013, 07:34:54 PM »
lets see, he broke his truck, and hijacked another.  how much time did he have to tranfer guns and ammo?  then he is running from the police into the cabin?  while carrying a .50 and how many rounds of ammo?  (hundreds of rounds were exchanged?)

unfortunatly i'm not sure what part is made up by the media, and what part is being fed to them.

the truly amazing part about this whole manhunt was that they could't find even one disparaging photo of the guy.  every single one has him with this huge grin like someone just told the best joke ever.
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Re: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil
« Reply #145 on: February 13, 2013, 07:44:31 PM »
Well, I'm still waiting on the million doller question.

Is the dude dead yet?
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Re: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil
« Reply #146 on: February 13, 2013, 07:52:33 PM »
Well, I'm still waiting on the million doller question.

Is the dude dead yet?

They may be waiting on a DNA test
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil
« Reply #147 on: February 13, 2013, 07:54:13 PM »
.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 07:59:20 PM by bluestarlizzard »
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil
« Reply #148 on: February 13, 2013, 08:00:36 PM »
Because mere possession of a fifty makes you a supreme sniper who can make thousand yard headshots on moving targets, right?
The typical fifty is large and unwieldy, an not very useful for average shooter. 
They pinned him down and a fire resulted.
Why is this suddenly a point of contention?  Do you just like starting arguments?

moving targets?  it does make folks nervous knowing that vest isn't gonna do much.

you didn't see the video?  lots of firing  likely like the sla shoot out. rounds passing through house make cops on other side think they were fired on by the folks in
side
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Fitz

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Re: Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil
« Reply #149 on: February 13, 2013, 08:10:27 PM »
So, what CSD is saying, is that if you own a 50, you deserve to be burned out of your house

;-)
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