Fugitive alleged LAPD-killer is first drone target on U.S. soil

[Fly320s]

Some of those cops were using full autos.

[lupinus]

moving targets?  it does make folks nervous knowing that vest isn't gonna do much.

you didn't see the video?  lots of firing  likely like the sla shoot out. rounds passing through house make cops on other side think they were fired on by the folks in
side

If he's so *expletive deleted* dangerous how the hell did they lob gas in there and set the place on fire? That's a hell of a lot closer than a reasonable perimeter.

If you feel so strongly that a perimeter wont work on the active shooter, get the SWAT sharpshooter out and have him put one in his head if he pops up for another shot. Fine, clean, over and done with, no likelihood of it getting out of control or harming hostages. But police have no *expletive deleted* business setting buildings on fire just because there is a guy in there to apprehend.

[AZRedhawk44]

If he's so *expletive deleted* dangerous how the hell did they lob gas in there and set the place on fire? That's a hell of a lot closer than a reasonable perimeter.

If you feel so strongly that a perimeter wont work on the active shooter, get the SWAT sharpshooter out and have him put one in his head if he pops up for another shot. Fine, clean, over and done with, no likelihood of it getting out of control or harming hostages. But police have no *expletive deleted* business setting buildings on fire just because there is a guy in there to apprehend.

/thread.

[Ron]

I doubt he had a .50 cal

More purposeful disinformation to exploit the situation.

This is why this country is doomed. Even here we cannot get everyone to agree that cops using .mil war tactics on civilians is wrong.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Let's see, you've had to ditch your truck and leave some of your weaponry.

So, naturally, you grab the heaviest rifle known to Man and "hundreds" of rounds of .50 BMG, and you hoof it into the woods.

Because . . . Hollywood!

[KD5NRH]

So, naturally, you grab the heaviest rifle known to Man and "hundreds" of rounds of .50 BMG, and you hoof it into the woods.

What good would hundreds of rounds of .50 ammo be if you're hauling a 20mm Kawamura 97?

[agricola]

All they had to do was wait.  Time was on their side.  Cut the utilities, keep the TV people away.  Everyone has to sleep sometime.  No need to for gas or fire or anything else.  Don't even have to talk to him (but that helps to keep him awake).   Just had to give it time.

You say this, but its not guaranteed.  We had a somewhat similar incident over here in 2003 that still ended up with the suspect shooting himself and the place burning down.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2643679.stm

[ArfinGreebly]

What good would hundreds of rounds of .50 ammo be if you're hauling a 20mm Kawamura 97?

The point.

It has been missed.

[seeker_two]

You say this, but its not guaranteed.  We had a somewhat similar incident over here in 2003 that still ended up with the suspect shooting himself and the place burning down.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2643679.stm

Big difference b/t the perp setting the fire & the police setting it....

[agricola]

Big difference b/t the perp setting the fire & the police setting it....

there is, but what I was pointing out that the "wait him out" strategy isnt guaranteed to result in success.  Plus of course it was probably a lot easier to do it in Graham Road, Hackney than it would be in Big Bear, or whatever crazily named hamlet this happened in.

[Lee]

Good Lord...what a cluster.  At least he's (probably) dead though.  Heard on the news that internet chatter includes some people "vowing to continue the fight". Strange times.

[zxcvbob]

Well, I'm still waiting on the million dollar question.

Is the dude dead yet?

Very nicely worded!  :)

Do you think the woman who turned him in will collect any of the reward money?  Or not, since they didn't exactly capture the guy they just killed him.

[Gewehr98]

That million dollars should go to the two newspaper ladies. 

[BlueStarLizzard]

That million dollars should go to the two newspaper ladies. 

Or the people who's cabin got burned down.

[AJ Dual]

I doubt he had a .50 cal

More purposeful disinformation to exploit the situation.

This is why this country is doomed. Even here we cannot get everyone to agree that cops using .mil war tactics on civilians is wrong.

 

Yeah, I can't fathom he carried it on foot, plus a decent supply of ammo, plus some smaller weapons. I'm not clear on how far the home invasion and hostage situation was from his burned out car though.

[geronimotwo]

the gentleman who's vehicle was hijacked reported that he had a "gun", and a "ballistic" (tactical?) vest when he took his truck.  he did say the vest had pockets which could have contained "ammunition or a smoke bomb".  no mention of additional boxes of ammo and such.  i would give allowance that he could have been holding a rifle, and had a holstered pistol.

also, now law enforcement is denying torching the place intentionally.  (better make copies of all the youtube soundtracks, 'cause when they dissappear their innocense will all sound so very reasonable)  i will say a ruptured propane tank, and an incindiary tear gas canister would be a bad combo, but just the way the police where talking lead me to think they were starting upon a preagreed course of action that wasn't supposed to be common knowledge.

[BlueStarLizzard]

Yeah, I can't fathom he carried it on foot, plus a decent supply of ammo, plus some smaller weapons. I'm not clear on how far the home invasion and hostage situation was from his burned out car though.

well, you got about 30 pounds in the rifle alone...

I doubt he went all that far with just that.

[Hutch]

Hypothetically speaking  ...  What would happen if you picked an incendiary tear-gas (or CS gas, whatever) cannister with a set of fireplace tongs and dropped it into a sink (or tub or bucket) full of water?  Does it continue to spew gas and keep being all incendiary and all?  I have this friend that wants to know.  Really, I do.

[Boomhauer]

Hypothetically speaking  ...  What would happen if you picked an incendiary tear-gas (or CS gas, whatever) cannister with a set of fireplace tongs and dropped it into a sink (or tub or bucket) full of water?  Does it continue to spew gas and keep being all incendiary and all?  I have this friend that wants to know.  Really, I do.

I'm told it greatly reduces the output of the gas cartridge.

[Scout26]

sounds like a great way to lose a fight. guy called the tune  set the rules  asymmetrical warfare etc.  only a retard would fight that anything other than full bore. great way to get folks killed

Why did I expect this from C&SD "I never heard of a police shooting that wasn't 100% justified, unless it was Sheriff Joe in Maricopa County, AZ." ?

You just don't get it do you?   The police are not allowed to shoot anyone "just because" or for "officer safety".  Like what BSL stated.  The job comes with risks, but the job is to bring those suspected of crime before the bar of justice.  Not to summarily execute anyone who pissed them off.   

[AZRedhawk44]

I think I've processed what has me really incensed over this situation.


Dorner was probably a psycho.  He was probably a mediocre unremarkable failure in everything he attempted in life.  He was probably the author of that facebook manifesto.  He was probably wrong about all his LAPD internal affairs reports.  LAPD was probably right in firing him.  Probably.

But without a court hearing, with Dorner present and a full fact-finding effort, we'll never know.

We pay police officers to facilitate the court experience.  To bring to justice and exposition those that don't want to come to it.

Americans don't trust their civic institutions anymore.  Cops, Feds, tax agents, politicians, bureaucrats.  None of 'em.  The final institution for which we have any vestiges of respect are the courts.

We pay the police mercenaries to bring our suspects to the courts, so that the PUBLIC gets to hear the evidence and the PUBLIC gets to decide upon the just nature of the verdict.  That's why we have jury trials, why we have transcripts of court proceedings, and so on.

LAPD and SBSD didn't cheat Dorner out of his day in court.  Dorner didn't want it.

But Dorner was the suspect in a series of murders.  Murders against individual members of our society.

And we, as that society, have rules that the suspect is to be brought to a court for hearing and sentencing.

LAPD/SBSD decided, despite the enormous resources we give them to do this job, that this time it wasn't going to happen.  They usurped our court room.  The very place where we get the answers we need to maintain our faith in our institutions like LAPD and SBSD. 

The story is now one-sided, forevermore. 

We pay for SWAT teams to use special weapons and tactics.  Not redneck arson.
We pay for SWAT teams to have overtime to resolve a standoff.  Not get frustrated and unprofessional and murder a suspect.
We pay for SWAT teams to have crisis negotiators.  Not for them to have cushy office desks, but to be available in the field to talk down unstable minds.
We pay for police to bring criminals to society's justice.  The justice that We The People cede our own authority and empower them with our proxy to enforce.  Not to declare their own vendetta and carry it out with no oversight on our part.


This is personal, bloody, vendetta driven, guilty, culpable, retributive, vicious, sneaky, corrupt murder.

Not protecting and serving.

[roo_ster]

Why did I expect this from C&SD "I never heard of a police shooting that wasn't 100% justified, unless it was Sheriff Joe in Maricopa County, AZ." ?

You just don't get it do you?   The police are not allowed to shoot anyone "just because" or for "officer safety".  Like what BSL stated.  The job comes with risks, but the job is to bring those suspected of crime before the bar of justice.  Not to summarily execute anyone who pissed them off.   

Yep, all of that.

But, let us not forget the legitimate use of force by LEOs is the same as for the citizenry: self-defense and the protection of other innocent life.  While we despise those LEOs who in fear and rage shot at & rammed the wrong folks, let us give them the benefit of the doubt when they were under fire from Dorner.

So, use of arms by LEOs, SWAT and regular uniformed, is legitimate under the same circumstances it is legitimate for any random citizen.  I would contrast that with the use of pyrotechnics for what looks like a deliberate attempt to set fire to the cabin Dorner occupied.  Fire is an offensive and indiscriminate weapon not appropriate for use by LEOs.  There is a reason arson has some pretty stiff penalties.

[MicroBalrog]

Now to be fair.
I'm sure there are some situations (which I do not expect to occur in the CONUS any time soon) where it is legitimate for the police to use such military tactics.

But again, today was not that day.

[cordex]

So, use of arms by LEOs, SWAT and regular uniformed, is legitimate under the same circumstances it is legitimate for any random citizen.  I would contrast that with the use of pyrotechnics for what looks like a deliberate attempt to set fire to the cabin Dorner occupied.  Fire is an offensive and indiscriminate weapon not appropriate for use by LEOs.  There is a reason arson has some pretty stiff penalties.

What is bothering me right now is the refusal by the police administration that the fire was a deliberate act.  The radio traffic that has come to light has all been very, very clear that the boots on the ground intended to light that place up like a pyrotechnic Christmas tree.

LAPD/SBSD decided, despite the enormous resources we give them to do this job, that this time it wasn't going to happen.  They usurped our court room.  The very place where we get the answers we need to maintain our faith in our institutions like LAPD and SBSD.

The guy was actively seeking out and engaging in gunbattles with police.  As you pointed out, he was very intent on not being taken alive.  He wanted to kill cops and then be killed, and he got his wish (although, he never managed to kill anyone from LAPD).  If at any time the police were exchanging gunfire with him and killed him, I wouldn't care one little bit.  He was begging for that bullet, and I wouldn't deny him that.  The fact that the cops greased him doesn't bother me, and it would have taken a monumental effort to bring him in without killing him - one that would not have been exercised for anyone short of some extremely powerful political figure. 

Seriously, given his mindset if they had spent the time, money and lives to doggedly try to bring him in alive I'd probably be critical of their decision to do so.  He wasn't worth that.

The police crossed the line in two places:
1. Shooting at random trucks.
2. Intentionally burning the cabin down.

[Tallpine]

This is personal, bloody, vendetta driven, guilty, culpable, retributive, vicious, sneaky, corrupt murder.

That pretty much describes both Dorner and the LAPD