Author Topic: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage  (Read 40573 times)

slingshot

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #75 on: December 08, 2012, 01:00:46 AM »
As I said before, I want same sex unions (if legal) to be viewed as equal under the law. Dissolving the union would have the same consequences as a dissolving childless marriage.  If you believe that marriage is essentially for pro-creation of the human species in an orderly manner, then same sex unions do not promote this view.  Some religions would say this is godless.

I think same sex unions would serve to further weaken the family overall. Kids are taught that it is Okay. They are not just taught to tolerate differences between people but to accept it as being equal to a traditional family structure.  It is obvious that eventually same sex marriages will become "legal".  
It shall be as it was in the past... Not with dreams, but with strength and with courage... Shall a nation be molded to last. (The Plainsman, 1936)

Strings

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #76 on: December 08, 2012, 01:49:26 AM »
>I think same sex unions would serve to further weaken the family overall.<

I've heard this claim every time the subject comes up on here. What I never hear is "How". Simply believing it is the case is no more than a belief in Santa Claus. Explain to me how it would "further weaken the family"

>Kids are taught that it is Okay. They are not just taught to tolerate differences between people but to accept it as being equal to a traditional family structure.<

Um... yeah. That would be one effect.

And this is bad... how?

Every family I've seen, where gays are considered "lesser", "immoral", "degenerate"... the kids have absolutely ZERO tolerance for someone they can identify as "Other". And that's something we want to get past... or at least, I thought we did
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Fitz

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #77 on: December 08, 2012, 02:50:36 AM »
This thread is sure to change people's minds!
Fitz

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I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
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lupinus

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #78 on: December 08, 2012, 07:19:38 AM »
This thread is sure to change people's minds!
I'm totally convinced now
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Strings

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #79 on: December 08, 2012, 08:37:34 AM »
*shrug*

Those were really helpful, thoughtful, and constructive posts. I'm sure I can speak for fistful and Ron, as well as myself, when I say thank you for the insight.
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slingshot

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #80 on: December 08, 2012, 10:02:14 AM »
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Simply believing it is the case is no more than a belief in Santa Claus.

There lies the problem with social science.  Once you can demonstrate a cause and effect, the damage is done and more than likely not repairable.  Nobody can even agree on the root cause of crime, solutions, and what kind of punishment is effective in deterring future criminal behavior.  Once you start down the slope to same sex marriage, there will be no stopping it for all practical purposes.  And we have already started down that slope.  Right or wrong, that is where things are headed with the US Supreme Court hearing a case on the issue.

As I suspected all along, we are all just a bunch of animals being herded one way and the other.  The question is "herded" where and from what?  Towards goodness?? which is like just like the belief in Santa Claus and God; there is no proving that one in a way that is universally acceptable.
It shall be as it was in the past... Not with dreams, but with strength and with courage... Shall a nation be molded to last. (The Plainsman, 1936)

Strings

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #81 on: December 08, 2012, 10:40:36 AM »
>there is no proving that one in a way that is universally acceptable.<

QFT

Ye GAWDS, QFT!
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #82 on: December 08, 2012, 11:39:07 AM »
The Catholic Religion was probably the toughest at least to my knowledge.  A divorce or breaking of the marriage contract had religious consequences... essentially dissolving the contract without the blessing of the Church resulted in being denied any of the "benefits" of the religions.  That may be a bit outdated, but it remains today.

So, a bunch of people are stuck in a bad relationship, so if they stay, they suffer until dead. If they leave, their religion treats them like lepers. Then they try to move to new relationships and bring a ton of unresolved baggage, for all to enjoy. Outdated is the right word. But others come to mind as well. So, sanctified marriage does not seem to be a good idea.

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Changing the social contract to be inclusive of same sex people changes the fundamental religious contract because marriage was for pro-creation from a religous perspective and a legal contract for the other aspects of marriage.

Except one person's religious convictions should be limited to him. It cannot be a free society if those convictions are foisted upon other people, either verbatim or by extension or by effect, especially those who do not share them. Just because in Bob's religion, marriage is between man and woman, does not give the right to Bob to tell Tracy and Kate THEY cannot be married because it is against HIS religion. If Bob tries to use the power of the state to affect what kind of contract the lesbos can get in, then Bob acts as a statist, theocrat, and tyrant.

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From a religous perspective, the Roman Empire broke up because it became fundamentally corrupt in terms of its social fabric.  

What exactly does that mean? What society does not have corruption?

Regarding the Roman Empire, this is the typical example given. But, closer examination of the historical truth shows the Romans were doing just fine for many centuries, and had several periods of tranquility and prosperity, usually when a competent emperor replaced a wastrel, or when the barbarians backed off for a while. It does not correlate at all with fall of morals. In fact, for most of its history, Rome was decidedly pagan, but it did fall just 150 years after Christianity became the official religion. Should we then conclude Christianity made Rome fall?

The reality is the Roman Empire example is the moral example given by religious leaders as a warning that loose morals destroy societies. Do as we say, or you will fall like Rome. No matter that it has nothing to do with the historical truth. But, it is a useful rationalization if it gets people to follow you. The method is not much different than telling the medieval people that pestilences are the way God punishes them for their sins, although the true cause is bad sanitation or a pandemic virus, both of which have nothing to do with the moral fibre.

Specifically regarding marriage, even in Republican Rome, it was considered a means of solidifying political and economic alliances, to be dissolved when the alliances were broken up as well. And yet, they did just fine for hundreds of years.

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The big difference with America is that it was founded on Christian principles which are more or less generally accepted principles by other faiths.  But the difference is that fundamental rights were God given and not granted by the government.  The Second Amendment is one of those which many here hold dearly.

And the counterargument is the foundation was people willing to do violence to gain their freedom from an oppressive government. The religious aspect of it was necessary to counterweigh the opposite religious argument about viewing the king as the anointed representative of God on earth. Taking into account the revolutionaries had to gain the support of a lot of religious people, they had to provide the latter with a religious immunization against the religious memes of the loyalists.

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How much changing the marriage contract would affect the government is debatable.  But a country grows by population increase and same sex marriage is not compatable with that.  As long as the number of homosexual is small relatively speaking, it probably has no significant effect on the US social fabric in itself.

How is gay marriage incompatible with population increase? if anything, it is neutral. if there are more gay couples adopting or using surrogacy, the effect would actually be positive on population growth.

CAnnoneer

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #83 on: December 08, 2012, 11:46:48 AM »

Our society has been desanctifying marriage for decades. It has made things worse, not better.

Which things are worse and how are they brought about by the desanctification specifically?

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Like most social-liberal viewpoints, yours is based on outdated thinking.

How is that?

Perd Hapley

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #84 on: December 08, 2012, 12:37:49 PM »
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Like most social-liberal viewpoints, yours is based on outdated thinking.
How is that?


I mean, this isn't 1955. We've tried it your way. We've already been treating marriage like something temporary that can be discarded, once the magic is gone.

Now, come join us in the 21st century, where we know that approach hasn't made people happier, overall. It has just led to more people being torn up by more and cheaper relationships. More kids not knowing their fathers, etc.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #85 on: December 08, 2012, 01:07:36 PM »
Every family I've seen, where gays are considered "lesser", "immoral", "degenerate"... the kids have absolutely ZERO tolerance for someone they can identify as "Other". And that's something we want to get past... or at least, I thought we did

I imagine that would be true of any group of people. If you train your kids to think that liars or cops or Mets fans are all bound for the special hell, then you can expect them to treat such people with less than Christian charity. But that doesn't seem relevant to slingshot's point, which I think was about modeling healthy family structures for children.

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Ron

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #86 on: December 08, 2012, 01:32:08 PM »
Quote from: Strings on Today at 01:49:26 AM
Quote
Every family I've seen, where gays are considered "lesser", "immoral", "degenerate"... the kids have absolutely ZERO tolerance for someone they can identify as "Other". And that's something we want to get past... or at least, I thought we did

Soon the new "other" will be the Christians that hold historical and traditional beliefs.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

CAnnoneer

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #87 on: December 08, 2012, 01:46:52 PM »

I mean, this isn't 1955. We've tried it your way. We've already been treating marriage like something temporary that can be discarded, once the magic is gone.

What you say makes sense only if your premise is that a significant percentage of people get married carelessly or cynically. I find this highly doubtful. It is difficult to imagine that many brides that are so cynical from the beginning, saying "let's give this marriage thing a whirl; if it does not work out, I divorce."

The real difference with respect to 1955 is that divorce is relatively easy and no longer a big social stigma. So, instead of being stuck in bad abusive relationships for life, people have a way out and use it. How horrible indeed (sarcasm).

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Now, come join us in the 21st century, where we know that approach hasn't made people happier, overall.

Life is what you make out of it, so long as you have the freedom to do it. The answer to people making bad decisions is making good decisions, not taking their freedom of making decisions.

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It has just led to more people being torn up by more and cheaper relationships. More kids not knowing their fathers, etc.

In 1955, many children of married parents did not get to know their father either, either because he was the sole breadwinner and thus absent most of the time, or because he spent time with his mistress, or both.

Strings

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #88 on: December 08, 2012, 02:51:21 PM »
>Soon the new "other" will be the Christians that hold historical and traditional beliefs. <

Oh boy...

This suggestion ("Christians are persecuted!") is actually somewhat offensive to those of us who have dealt with actual religious persecution.

Just because society doesn't let you have everything your way does NOT equal persecution
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Strings

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #89 on: December 08, 2012, 03:00:08 PM »
>I imagine that would be true of any group of people. If you train your kids to think that liars or cops or Mets fans are all bound for the special hell, then you can expect them to treat such people with less than Christian charity. But that doesn't seem relevant to slingshot's point, which I think was about modeling healthy family structures for children. <

You'll notice that I didn't use any religious terms there. It has nothing to do with "special hells", or "Christian charity". And I've seen it in almost every faith (be kinda silly for a Sikh to show Christian Charity).

And again, I will ask the question: how is allowing gays the same legal protections to their committed relationships damaging to the institution of marriage?
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White Horseradish

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #90 on: December 08, 2012, 03:05:41 PM »
This suggestion ("Christians are persecuted!") is actually somewhat offensive to those of us who have dealt with actual religious persecution.

Just because society doesn't let you have everything your way does NOT equal persecution
This. A thousand times this. And I am more than "somewhat" offended. I usually restrain myself and don't say everything I would like to say on the subject in the name of decorum and board peace.
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

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slingshot

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #91 on: December 08, 2012, 03:16:25 PM »
I keep thinking what is the Islamist point of view on marriage and family structure.  I hear snippets about the religion but my take is that it is essentially like the Christian religion for the most part.  The Christian religion of the day when through their purges based on peganism and so forth.  Now we are experiencing the same sort of thing with Islam.  I think they are winning.

Since I am not well versed in Islam, maybe somebody could draw some comparisions to the Christian religions as well as the Catholic religion.

What does QFT mean?

Added:  I am of the general belief that a strict religious structure is actually healthy for society overall as there is less grey area between right and wrong.  I rebelled against organized religion in my younger days.  But on the whole, I see a great deal of merit in structure.  Structure is what our society is lacking.  A strict structure allows the government and society to have a less strict structure because the laws are simply not necessary.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 03:28:40 PM by slingshot »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #92 on: December 08, 2012, 03:25:57 PM »
What you say makes sense only if your premise is that a significant percentage of people get married carelessly or cynically. I find this highly doubtful. It is difficult to imagine that many brides that are so cynical from the beginning, saying "let's give this marriage thing a whirl; if it does not work out, I divorce."

Don't make things up. The premise is the modern reality, in which divorce bears relatively little social stigma. It is axiomatic that a less demanding commitment tends to elicit less thought, less counting of costs, before people either commit to it or abandon it.


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The real difference with respect to 1955 is that divorce is relatively easy and no longer a big social stigma. So, instead of being stuck in bad abusive relationships for life, people have a way out and use it. How horrible indeed (sarcasm).

Aside from the sarcasm, you're just repeating what I said. Then, you ignore the social costs that we have come to know all too well.


Quote
Life is what you make out of it, so long as you have the freedom to do it. The answer to people making bad decisions is making good decisions, not taking their freedom of making decisions.

What you say makes sense only if your premise is that people are being forced into marriages.


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In 1955, many children of married parents did not get to know their father either, either because he was the sole breadwinner and thus absent most of the time, or because he spent time with his mistress, or both.

Oh, please. You're being obtuse. No one said that 1955 was a golden age, or that problems did not exist at that time. The fact is that illegitimacy rates are much higher then, than now.
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White Horseradish

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #93 on: December 08, 2012, 03:46:19 PM »
I keep thinking what is the Islamist point of view on marriage and family structure.  I hear snippets about the religion but my take is that it is essentially like the Christian religion for the most part.  The Christian religion of the day when through their purges based on peganism and so forth.  Now we are experiencing the same sort of thing with Islam.  I think they are winning.
They are upset with Christians redefining the traditional marriage into this newfangled "one man-one woman" structure. They practice polygamy and believe in subservience of women, which is very Old Testament.

Quote
What does QFT mean?
Quoted For Truth

Added:  I am of the general belief that a strict religious structure is actually healthy for society overall as there is less grey area between right and wrong.  I rebelled against organized religion in my younger days.  But on the whole, I see a great deal of merit in structure.  Structure is what our society is lacking.  A strict structure allows the government and society to have a less strict structure because the laws are simply not necessary.
Yeah, but any strict structure has massive potential for all sorts of abuses.
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

Robert A Heinlein

slingshot

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #94 on: December 08, 2012, 04:01:25 PM »
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Yeah, but any strict structure has massive potential for all sorts of abuses.

True... like using chemical weapons against your own people?

I know the same sex marriage will become the law of the land regardless of how I feel about it.  I just wonder where we go from here with the family structure deteriorating rapidly, out of wedlock births rising for all races, single parent families being the norm, more government dependance, crime seems to be rising again after years of decline, fewer people participating in organized religions, the government becoming more and more intrusive... where is this going?  I suspect the answer is Kaboom.  But I hope not.
It shall be as it was in the past... Not with dreams, but with strength and with courage... Shall a nation be molded to last. (The Plainsman, 1936)

zxcvbob

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #95 on: December 08, 2012, 04:10:31 PM »
Quote
Quoted For Truth

Because everyone knows if you saw something enough times it becomes true.  (I don't even know what this was about, just the whole idea of "QFT" pisses me off, dagnabbit)
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TommyGunn

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #96 on: December 08, 2012, 05:27:53 PM »
>Soon the new "other" will be the Christians that hold historical and traditional beliefs. <

Oh boy...

This suggestion ("Christians are persecuted!") is actually somewhat offensive to those of us who have dealt with actual religious persecution.

Just because society doesn't let you have everything your way does NOT equal persecution yet.
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ArfinGreebly

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #97 on: December 08, 2012, 07:01:51 PM »

>Soon the new "other" will be the Christians that hold historical and traditional beliefs. <

Oh boy...

This suggestion ("Christians are persecuted!") is actually somewhat offensive to those of us who have dealt with actual religious persecution.

Just because society doesn't let you have everything your way does NOT equal persecution


And, while that's true, there are [relatively] modern religions for which "persecution" is neither an abstract nor hyperbole.

There are still a great many "Christians" who can't reconcile themselves with Mormonism.  Not a month goes by that I don't hear (or see) someone use the word "cult" in reference to it, and they're actually not kidding.  The LDS church has mostly gained recognition as a mainstream religion, but there is no shortage of people who would happily see it dismantled.

As a member of another [relatively] modern church, one whose existence has literally been attacked by the governments of the countries where it started, as well as by the governments of other nations to which it has spread, assisted by both the intel communities and the media, I have a clearer view of what real persecution is.

And, as I see the engines of persecution being incrementally directed toward Christianity, one aspect at a time, I will tell you that -- in slow motion -- Christianity is, indeed, under attack.  It's not required that it be entirely demolished, just infiltrated and subverted to the point where it ceases to be a vehicle for traditional moralities.  Once that's been accomplished, and the pulpit is no longer dangerous to the conquistadors du jour, it won't matter.

It's only necessary to destroy a church if you don't believe you can "turn" it to your advantage, and you believe that what it teaches threatens your plans.
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Ned Hamford

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #98 on: December 08, 2012, 07:04:56 PM »
Let's not forget that in the 19 fifties it was also more common for people to have their spouse killed than to seek divorce.

  >:D

I just wanted to toss more oil on the flames
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #99 on: December 08, 2012, 07:44:25 PM »
Don't make things up. The premise is the modern reality, in which divorce bears relatively little social stigma. It is axiomatic that a less demanding commitment tends to elicit less thought, less counting of costs, before people either commit to it or abandon it.

So, what is your solution? Let's make divorce nigh impossible, to strengthen marriage? Then modern people will simply not marry.

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Aside from the sarcasm, you're just repeating what I said. Then, you ignore the social costs that we have come to know all too well.

The social costs of what? Desanctifying marriage? Making divorce easy? Having gov payoffs for single mothers, so welfare women are incentivized to produce a bunch of kids? I feel like a dentist here. Give us your version in a consistent way, so I understand your claims.

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What you say makes sense only if your premise is that people are being forced into marriages.

People make mistakes. They need to be able to make their choices but then be able to fix them as well. Building up walls to entry and to exit makes marriage a prison. Nobody would support that. It goes beyond conservative and into some lalaland.