Author Topic: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?  (Read 30899 times)

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #75 on: January 04, 2007, 06:05:56 AM »
Since the Federal Reserve got going, the "Dollar" has now only $.04 of purchasing power compared to the 1913 dollar.  (And that's just the "official" rate- reality is much worse.)  Wanna bet that in 1913 you could buy a loaf of bread for a nickle?  What's a loaf of generic house brand sandwhich bread cost at Wally-World now - and this DESPITE modern agriculture and food processing that * SHOULD * have made it much cheaper.  Ditto cigars.  "What this country needs is a good 5 cent cigar" - except it will now cost you a buck each, or more.  At $32 an ounce, thirty ounces of gold would buy you a decent car in the '30s.  Today, at around 630 per ounce, 30 ounces of gold is worth $18,900 - enough to buy a decent car.  Now, if you had held on to $960 of Federal Reserve notes from the '30s - you could buy...a TV, or a PC - but NOT a car.... the rest of the real wealth that SHOULD have been stored in that currency has been stolen by politicians and bankers inflating the money supply.  Its a way to "tax" anyone holding dollars wihtout the plitical pain of a tax - or the accountability.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #76 on: January 04, 2007, 06:11:30 AM »
Except that the loaf of bread in 1913 probably cost 1% of the week's wages.  Today it is much less than that.  Gasoline for $2.30 a gallon today is a bargain compared to 25 cents a gallon in 1960.  Yes, gold has been a steady store of value but so what.  We have had fewer and less severe recessions since we went off the gold standard than before.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

Guest

  • Guest
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #77 on: January 04, 2007, 07:17:17 AM »
For those of you who think precious metals have no intrinsic value, I will gladly trade you 8 Federal Reserve "dollars" for any single Liberty Dollar that comes into your possession...

http://www.libertydollar.org/

 Has rabbi sent you any silver yet?  He made a firm offer to do so.

"Rich Young, I will gladly take those nasty illegal Federal Reserve notes off your hands.  Especially the ones with Franklin's picture."

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #78 on: January 04, 2007, 08:00:10 AM »
We've also had double-digit inflation and unemployment at the SAME TIME, a supposed "impossibility" under the Keynsian theories that the fiat money is based on.  Plus, are you forgetting a little thing called the Great Depression?  It was DURING the onset of that the gold standard was revoked for peasants like us - (not for foriegners and the rich,tho...).

First Source(s):

www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/historyonline/us26.cfm
www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/11-516-XIE/sectione/sectione.htm
(See section E248-267)
Both sources confirm that the average wage of an American in 1900 was around $.22/hour, or in other words, about $2/day.  That equals  47.8 grams of silver at the time.  That also means that a nickle loaf of bread represented 1/200th of his weekly wages - IF he worked only 5 days a week, and no overtime.

Average annual wage - 2006 $36,219 = $17.41/hour = $139.28/day = 339.7 grams of silver, with a loaf oif bread being roughly 1/1000 of a week's wage.  Bare in mind, bread * SHOULD * be much cheaper now....
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #79 on: January 04, 2007, 08:07:11 AM »
For those of you who think precious metals have no intrinsic value, I will gladly trade you 8 Federal Reserve "dollars" for any single Liberty Dollar that comes into your possession...

http://www.libertydollar.org/

 Has rabbi sent you any silver yet?  He made a firm offer to do so.

"Rich Young, I will gladly take those nasty illegal Federal Reserve notes off your hands.  Especially the ones with Franklin's picture."

For just 8 Liberrty dollars (coin or paper, either one - the fastest growing and most popular alternate LEGAL currency in the US...) I'd be happy to send him a FedRes Franklin
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #80 on: January 04, 2007, 08:24:45 AM »
We've also had double-digit inflation and unemployment at the SAME TIME, a supposed "impossibility" under the Keynsian theories that the fiat money is based on.  Plus, are you forgetting a little thing called the Great Depression?  It was DURING the onset of that the gold standard was revoked for peasants like us - (not for foriegners and the rich,tho...).

First Source(s):

www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/historyonline/us26.cfm
www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/11-516-XIE/sectione/sectione.htm
(See section E248-267)
Both sources confirm that the average wage of an American in 1900 was around $.22/hour, or in other words, about $2/day.  That equals  47.8 grams of silver at the time.  That also means that a nickle loaf of bread represented 1/200th of his weekly wages - IF he worked only 5 days a week, and no overtime.

Average annual wage - 2006 $36,219 = $17.41/hour = $139.28/day = 339.7 grams of silver, with a loaf oif bread being roughly 1/1000 of a week's wage.  Bare in mind, bread * SHOULD * be much cheaper now....


Your sources are not responsive at all to your argument.
You agree that food prices as a percentage of income have declined.  This was my argument and thanks for proving it.
Roosevelt outlawed private ownership of gold in 1934, well into the Depression.  There is additionally a large body of opinion holding that the gold standard caused the Depression, or at least contributed to it.  In fairness there is another view that holds the opposite view.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #81 on: January 04, 2007, 08:31:13 AM »
Compare how wheat was raised: (no modern hybrids, no artificial fertilizers, no insecticides, herbicides, animal powered plows vs. modern agriculture), how wheat was processed: (water powered mill vs modern machinery) and how bread was baked ( by hand, coal or wood stove vs electric mixers and ovens on giant scale) - and you will see from INCREASED PRODUCTIVITY ALONE the price of bread SHOULD have fallen in real terms since 1900 - MUCH more than the 5X drop we see.

Ignoring for the moment that "store bought bread" was essentially a LUXURY ITEM in 1900...
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #82 on: January 05, 2007, 07:55:36 AM »
Think about it... the most expensive factor in crating most consumer goods is LABOR - how much human labor is actually in a 1 pound loaf of bread you buy in the grocery store, verses how much human labor was in one in 1900.  Why accept inflation in currency at all?
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #83 on: January 05, 2007, 08:05:56 AM »

Your sources are not responsive at all to your argument.
You agree that food prices as a percentage of income have declined.  This was my argument and thanks for proving it.

Your argument is flawed - mechanization of agriculture, the use of chemicals, improved hybrid seeds, and the development of a national, then international food distribution system, along with refrigeration, canning, freeze-drying, and other techniques are responsible for the radical decline in food prices - NOT sound monetary policy.  In 1929, the average American household spent 23.9% of its income on food - now its around 9.3%,  It should be  (and could be, in hte absence of government subsidies & other meddling), much less.  Not to mention the fact that WHOLE NEW CATEGORIES exist to spend money in:  How much did people spend in 1900 on:
electricity
telephone
consumer electronics
automobile
income tax
movies
photography
recorded music and video
computers
batteries

For the average joe, that total would be close to: ZERO.

As other things are added to the family budget, the percentage that existing expenses occupy DROPS - its called "math".
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #84 on: January 05, 2007, 12:13:43 PM »
(See section E248-267)
Both sources confirm that the average wage of an American in 1900 was around $.22/hour, or in other words, about $2/day.  That equals  47.8 grams of silver at the time.  That also means that a nickle loaf of bread represented 1/200th of his weekly wages - IF he worked only 5 days a week, and no overtime.

Average annual wage - 2006 $36,219 = $17.41/hour = $139.28/day = 339.7 grams of silver, with a loaf oif bread being roughly 1/1000 of a week's wage.  Bare in mind, bread * SHOULD * be much cheaper now....
I'm not exactly sure what it is you're driving at here, but I want to point out that it is right and proper for today's worker to earn many times more money than a worker from 1900 - today's worker is many times more productive than the 1900's worker.  The fact that the daily wage in dollars has gone up does NOT indicate that the dollars are worth less today than they were in 1900.  It means that today's worker is being paid many times more value because he is producing many times more value.

A critical aspect of this discussion is being ignored in this thread, which is the fact that the economy (and thus the raw quantity of currency needed) is continually growing. 

Back in 1900 the US population was about 75 million.  Each worker made on average $2/day.  Total payment is owed to the workers of the nation add up to something like $150M/day.*

Today's workers earn on average $140/day, and the population is about 300 million.  Total payment owed to the workers of the nation each day amounts to some $42B/day.*

Unless the money supply had expanded over the last century there wouldn't be enough currency to go around!  There has to be some sort of mechanism for intelligently and deliberately increasing the money base as the economy grows.  That can't happen if you are tied to the gold standard!! 

Sure, additional gold can be mined to increase the money base.  But then the growth of your economy would be limited by the rate at which you can dig up gold.  The country would suffer crippling bouts of inflation every time mining production increased, and wicked bouts of deflation every time worker productivity increased.  That makes the gold standard a Bad Idea.

Using the Fed Reserve to manage the size of the money base is a necessary aspect of modern life.  The gold standard simply wouldn't work today.  You can debate the rate at which the Fed increases the money base, but you can't dispute the need for the Fed to increase the money base.

The bottom line is that the gold standard was abandoned because it was obsolete.   

* These numbers are intended to be illustrative, not absolutely correct.  Do the research yourself if you really want to know the accurate numbers.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,446
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #85 on: January 05, 2007, 12:20:37 PM »
Quote
Sure, additional gold can be mined to increase the money base.  But then the growth of your economy would be limited by the rate at which you can dig up gold.  The country would suffer crippling bouts of inflation every time mining production increased, and wicked bouts of deflation every time worker productivity increased.  That makes the gold standard a Bad Idea.

Economical newbie here:  Would part of the problem be that money would get more expensive?  In other words, that it would be harder to get a loan to start or expand a business, or to buy products, because there is not as much money availabe to lend? 
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #86 on: January 05, 2007, 02:02:59 PM »
Quote
Sure, additional gold can be mined to increase the money base.  But then the growth of your economy would be limited by the rate at which you can dig up gold.  The country would suffer crippling bouts of inflation every time mining production increased, and wicked bouts of deflation every time worker productivity increased.  That makes the gold standard a Bad Idea.

Economical newbie here:  Would part of the problem be that money would get more expensive?  In other words, that it would be harder to get a loan to start or expand a business, or to buy products, because there is not as much money availabe to lend? 
You are correct.

It's a basic supply and demand thing.  As the population grows, and the sum total of business activity grows, and the value of peoples' productivity grows, then so does their need for currency.  Demand goes up, supply goes down, and suddenly money (in the form of currency/dollars/FRNs) becomes too valuable to spend.  You get deflation.

Yes, there would be too little money available for lending.  You'd end up in a goofy situation where creditors would lend money at negative interests rates.  The lender offers the debtor a loan of $10, and only asks to be repaid $8.  But the debtor loses out on this deal, because in a deflationary period the value of $1 is always increasing.  The $8 of future currency he must repay is worth more than the $10 of old currency he borrowed.

Yes, there would be too little money for buying goods.  Consumers would be reluctant to spend money, because in a deflationary period the value of the currency exceeds the value of the goods.  People would horde their money, knowing that it would be more valuable tomorrow than it is today

There would be too little money for paying employees.  Employers would be reluctant to hire workers, because the future liability of those wages would be too expensive.  Pay rates would be forever decreasing, not increasing.

There would be too little money for investing into new business ventures.  Investors with spare cash would be better off just holding the cash.  Deflation would make that cash more valuable over time.  It would be foolish to give that growth up on the hopes that the business venture would pay off better in the long run. 

The overall result is that deflation would deter investment.  This is the real danger of deflation!  Economic activity would halt, because investment is the backbone of any economy.

Our current conditions, a small but ever-present level of inflation, is probably the best possible condition.  Inflation is low enough that nobody is seriously hurt by it, yet still high enough to encourage people to invest spare cash rather than horde it.

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #87 on: January 05, 2007, 02:49:56 PM »
I'd like to expand upon my previous post, which is already too long.

A period of steady, predictably deflation wouldn't be too terribly damaging.  The people and the economy would adapt, and life would go on. 

Take lending as an example.  Current inflation is something on the order of 3% to 5%.

Under current conditions, if a bank loaned money at the exact rate of inflation (3% or 5% or whatever) then they would just break even.  If the loaned at a rate less than inflation (say 0% or 1% or so) they would lose money, and if they loaned at a rate higher than inflation (say 10%) they would make a profit.

Banking would work the same way in a deflationary period, it's just the numbers that would be different.  Let's say deflation is something like 10% (or in other words inflation is -10%; currency become 10% more valuable each year).  For the bank to break even on a loan, it still has to lend money at the exact rate of inflation (-10%;  that means that on a one year loan, they would only expect you to pay back to 90% of what you borrowed).  To make a profit, the bank has to loan at a rate higher than inflation (-5%, or 0%, or something like that).  If they goof up and loan at a rate lower than inflation (say -15%), then the bank would lose its shirt.

The system of lending works the same regardless of the actual rate of inflation/deflation (lend at a rate higher than inflation to turn a profit; lend at a rate lower than inflation and you take a loss), but the numbers are different.  It would take some getting used to.  A 5% mortgage rate looks pretty darned good right now, but in a deflationary period (inflation=-10%) it would be a terrible deal:  you would be paying back 15% more value than you borrowed each and every year.

Anyway, we could live with a system of constant, predictable deflation.  We'd just have to get used to the new ways the numbers worked out. 

What we couldn't adapt to is a system where the rate of inflation or deflation is constantly changing.  A banker can make a reasonable estimate of what interest rate to loan money at if he knows what inflation/deflation is going to be in the future.  He simply sets the rate of the loan a few percentage points over the rate of inflation regardless of what inflation happens to be.  But if he doesn't know what the inflation rate will be going forward, then he can't make any loan without taking on a significant risk.  If he sets his interest rates too low, then he might end up losing money and being ruined by the loans he made.  If he sets sets his interest rates too high, then nobody will borrow from him and he'll still be ruined.  The best course for all concerned is to avoid lending or borrowing money. 

Economic stagnation is the eventual result of unpredictable inflation and deflation.

I guess my point in all of this is that it's predictability that matters most of all.  This is where the gold standard fails and the Fed Reserve system shines. 

Under the gold standard, the only way to increase the money base is to dig more gold out of the ground.  If some miner strikes a mother lode, then suddenly the money base has increased tremendously.  Supply and demand:  the supply of gold/currency increased, therefore the demand decreased.  This means inflation.

If the population grows suddenly, then so will the demand for currency.  Demand goes up, supply goes down, and you get deflation.

If an entrepreneur or an inventor suddelny manages to increased the productivity of the nation's workforce (the invention of the assembly line would be a good example - suddenly laborers were able to produce tenfold more than they were before).  Again, the demand for currency goes up, supply goes down, and you get deflation.

Under the gold standard, what you find is that a never ending sequence of unpredictable events (gold production, population changes, productivity changes, economic growth, etc) is constantly causing sharp spikes of inflation and deflation.  The rate of inflation becomes upredictable, and it becomes very difficult and very risky for people to make sound investments.  So people simply stop investing.

But thankfully we have the Federal Reserve system.  Under our existing system, a smart guru in Washington is able to wave his magic wand and make the money base bigger or smaller whenever it's necessary. 

Population boom?  Bad news if you're on the gold standard, you get deflation.  No problem if you're on the Fed Reserve standard.  The fed can simply create more currency.  Supply rises to meet rising demand, thus no change in inflation/deflation.  Predictability is maintained.

Alaskan gold rush?  Bad news if you're on the gold standard, you get inflation.  No problem if you're on the Fed Reserve standard, because the supply/demand ratio for money isn't based upon gold.  Predictability is maintained.

Henry Ford or Ma Bell or Bill Gates making your workforce dramatically more productive? Bad news if your on the gold standard, you won't have enough additional currency to cover the increase in productivity and worker output, you get deflation.  No problem if you're on the Fed Reserve system, the Fed Chairman will simp;y increase the  nation's money supply to match the increase in economic output.  There'll be no change inthe rate of inflation/deflation, predictability is maintained.

You get the idea.

Obviously the Fed Reserve system can be abused or mismanaged.  If the Fed Chairman increases the money supply at the wrong rate or at the wrong time, he'll actually end up causing inflation or deflation instead of controlling it.  So the increased flexibility of the Fed Reserve system doesn't come free of risk.  But it's a cost that's worth paying, the advantages outweigh the risks.  I's like any other government power.  Beneficial to the people if it's wielded properly, dangerous if it's not.  Ultimately it is the responsibility of the electorate to make sure that our government does the right thing with our money supply.

Sorry for being extremely long-winded.

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #88 on: January 06, 2007, 02:35:27 PM »
I'd like to expand upon my previous post, which is already too long.

A period of steady, predictably deflation wouldn't be too terribly damaging.  The people and the economy would adapt, and life would go on. 

Take lending as an example.  Current inflation is something on the order of 3% to 5%.

Under current conditions, if a bank loaned money at the exact rate of inflation (3% or 5% or whatever) then they would just break even.  If the loaned at a rate less than inflation (say 0% or 1% or so) they would lose money, and if they loaned at a rate higher than inflation (say 10%) they would make a profit.

Banking would work the same way in a deflationary period, it's just the numbers that would be different.  Let's say deflation is something like 10% (or in other words inflation is -10%; currency become 10% more valuable each year).  For the bank to break even on a loan, it still has to lend money at the exact rate of inflation (-10%;  that means that on a one year loan, they would only expect you to pay back to 90% of what you borrowed).  To make a profit, the bank has to loan at a rate higher than inflation (-5%, or 0%, or something like that).  If they goof up and loan at a rate lower than inflation (say -15%), then the bank would lose its shirt.


You make excellent points in your posts so I am reluctant to disagree.  OK, I am gung ho to do so.
Anyway, Japan had a steady deflation for a few years.  It was disaster.  There was no investment at all.  Banks kept their money in cash rather than make loans.  There seems to be some preference for mild inflation (2%/year) over mild deflation.  Our problem seems to come directly from the high inflation of the late 1970s.  Prior to that everything was working out fine.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

Art Eatman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,442
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #89 on: January 06, 2007, 03:42:32 PM »
From government numbers, since 1970 the buying power of the middle class, excepting electronics products, has declined.  Inflation.

Now, the "offical" inflation numbers make certain assumptions and omit and occasionally drop certain items from the list.

Assumption, e.g.:  If the price of a brand-name canned veggie jumps up, Mrs. Housewife will then buy Generic, lowering her grocery bill.  Anybody believe that?

Omitted:  Medical costs.  What's interesting is to read an article, "Medical Cost Increases Exceed Inflation by a Factor of Five!"  Hmmm.  Aren't we glad that we don't buy "Medical"?  So it's unnecessary to include that in our cost of living?

Thirty-some years ago, housing and automobiles were included in the "Inflation Basket".  Guess what?  When prices began to climb like crazy during the Carter era, these were dropped from the list.

If you think inflation is 3% to 5%, you don't buy hydraulic oil, engine oil, pvc pipe,  steel or copper tubing.  You don't stay in motels.  Or eat at restaurants.

Oh:  What do you call it when the ad valorem tax--with the sudden high increase in the alleged "value" of your land or house--is tripled or more?
The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #90 on: January 06, 2007, 10:19:54 PM »
Ok Art, if the true inflation rate isn't 3% to 5%, then what is it? 

If you think the actual inflation rate exceeds, or even approaches, the prime lending rate, then you don't understand banking and finance.  The prime rate (~8%) less the bank's overhead and profit is an excellent indicator of the true level of inflation.  You'll have to guesstimate what the overhead and profit margin is on a sound bank loan, but I wouldn't think they sum to less than 2% or 3%.  Thus real inflation isn't likely to be more than 5% or 6%, else banks would be losing money and going under.

Taking that idea one step further, the Fed funds rate is probably a rock solid reliable indicator of true inflation.  This is the rate at which bank loan among themselves, usually on an extremely short term basis and at zero risk.  Thus the overhead on a fed funds loan approaches zero.  The current fed funds rate is 5.25%, and is up about a point over the past year.  This indicates that real inflation is on the order of 5% and rising slightly.

If all you're buying is petroleum products and metals, then of course you'll think we're in a period of dramatic inflation.  Hotel rooms and restaurant meals are another matter;  I haven't noticed either increasing much around here, maybe things are different where you live.  Any time you try to compute some sort of price index based on a small set of goods, you'll invariably have some error due to the disproportionate way that different goods change in price.  Thus I prefer to look at the money itself, rather than a short list of what that money can be spent on, when trying to judge true inflation.

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #91 on: January 06, 2007, 10:33:00 PM »
I'd like to expand upon my previous post, which is already too long.

A period of steady, predictably deflation wouldn't be too terribly damaging.  The people and the economy would adapt, and life would go on. 

Take lending as an example.  Current inflation is something on the order of 3% to 5%.

Under current conditions, if a bank loaned money at the exact rate of inflation (3% or 5% or whatever) then they would just break even.  If the loaned at a rate less than inflation (say 0% or 1% or so) they would lose money, and if they loaned at a rate higher than inflation (say 10%) they would make a profit.

Banking would work the same way in a deflationary period, it's just the numbers that would be different.  Let's say deflation is something like 10% (or in other words inflation is -10%; currency become 10% more valuable each year).  For the bank to break even on a loan, it still has to lend money at the exact rate of inflation (-10%;  that means that on a one year loan, they would only expect you to pay back to 90% of what you borrowed).  To make a profit, the bank has to loan at a rate higher than inflation (-5%, or 0%, or something like that).  If they goof up and loan at a rate lower than inflation (say -15%), then the bank would lose its shirt.


You make excellent points in your posts so I am reluctant to disagree.  OK, I am gung ho to do so.
Anyway, Japan had a steady deflation for a few years.  It was disaster.  There was no investment at all.  Banks kept their money in cash rather than make loans.  There seems to be some preference for mild inflation (2%/year) over mild deflation.  Our problem seems to come directly from the high inflation of the late 1970s.  Prior to that everything was working out fine.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.  In the short term deflation is very bad news.  First, deflation itself, in a world where people are accustomed to low-level inflation, will dramatically deter investment and economic activity.  Second, a sudden shift in the rate of inflation/deflation (e.g. a transition from inflation to deflation) hurts the economy, as its unpredictability tends to burn investors.

Over the long term, if an economy and its constituent people are accustomed to deflation, then deflation wouldn't be all that bad.  If everyone knows what the conditions are and how to operate properly under them, then the economy will function.  But it would take a very long time indeed for any existing inflation-adapted economy to make the transition to a functioning deflation-adapted economy.  We're talking a generation or more in which the economic populace agrees that deflation is the existing norm and will continue to be the norm indefinitely.

My point was that sudden variability in the rate of inflation/deflation is the real killer.

Art Eatman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,442
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #92 on: January 07, 2007, 05:29:57 AM »
Rabbi, my point is that items such as I listed are NOT included in the Market Basket, which then gives a nice, rosy picture that's unrealistic.  It's not that I ONLY buy those items; it's that YOU and everybody else either buy them or rely for services on those who do.

The added costs of such as hydraulic oil and repair parts drives up the cost of construction, for instance.  That drives up the private-sector costs for houses and commercial buildings as well as the taxpayer cost for highways and dams.  Anytime the cost of electricity goes up, so goes the cost of cement--which is also affected by the cost of natural gas, and natural gas prices in the last few years are some four times more than in the late 1990s. 

When the US Government sources claim the buying power is down over a lengthy period, that tells me that the published rate of inflation (from a different US Government source Smiley ) MUST be higher than what's claimed.

Oh, well.  What's oddball in all this, today, is that we don't have a case of "too many dollars chasing too few products".  Yeah, the world is awash in dollars, but it's also awash in over-production.  It's more a case of the printing presses and Gresham's law.  That 84-cent Euro is now $1.31, just in the last four or five years.

True rate of inflation?  Damfino, but it's darned sure more than any 2.6 or 3 percent.

Art

The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #93 on: January 07, 2007, 05:44:50 AM »
Art,
You were replying to Headless, not me.

Be that as it may, the gov't probably does not count the cost of rail transportation for goods in the index either.  But those numbers do come out anyway in the cost for items shipped by rail.  As for hydraulic fluid, most consumers do not buy it in any quantity or on any regular basis (I never have).  The primary consumers are repair shops etc.  That is why it is called the Consumer Price Index.  There is a Producer Price Index as well of course.

Except for the huge inflation of the 1970s prices have not risen all that much.  When someone looks back to costs etc in 1960 and compares them to toda, invariably the biggest change happened from 1973 to 1980.  If you took those years out of the picture things would look very different indeed.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

JohnBT

  • New Member
  • Posts: 55
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #94 on: January 07, 2007, 08:58:43 AM »
"the biggest change happened from 1973 to 1980"

No wonder everything always looks rosy to me.  Smiley

Finished high school in '68, finished college in '72, endured the OPEC embargo of '73, finished grad school in '74, went to work, and finally bought a house in 1980 with a 30-year 12.75% mortgage that looked cheap at the time. The payment was 75 cents less than half my monthly take home.

Heck, things ARE good.  Wink

John

Kyle

  • Guest
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #95 on: January 07, 2007, 11:12:39 AM »
So.... lets say I wanted to buy an ounce of gold to horde away... where/how/when do I do this?

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #96 on: January 07, 2007, 11:36:18 AM »
I see a lot of ads offering investment certificates (futures?) in gold stored elsewhere.  To my way of thinking they won't be much better than T-bills in a real disaster scenario.  What am I going to do, walk through Canada down to wherever and present my certificate and then haul my specie back home?
 
The guy with the reindeer farm in the Matanuska Valley sure won't care what some certificate printed by a private outfit in Dubuque says, he'll want physical quid for his fresh slaughtered side of pro quo.

Even USD backed by gold wouldn't do me any good if there's no realistic way to get to Ft. Knox to redeem it.  Assuming Ft. Knox remained in .gov hands and wasn't seized by someone.  The deflation rate due to time and distance to redeem gold-backed paper dollars for specie in AK, much less HI, would be crippling. 

Thus the only gold worth "owning" is gold on hand, which means I then have to store and protect it.  If it becomes necessary to move in or out of a disaster, I'll have to transport it and protect it enroute.  That's quickly going to become unwieldy. 
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #97 on: January 07, 2007, 11:42:58 AM »
So.... lets say I wanted to buy an ounce of gold to horde away... where/how/when do I do this?
"Where" and "how" is easy.  Go to your local coin collecting shop and ask about gold bullion coins.  These are one ounce gold coins that aren't used as currency and are so common that they have no collector value.  Their only value is their weight in gold.   Krugerrands are probably the most common type, followed by Canadian Maple Leafs and American Eagles.  Buy as many as you want.  Just don't lose any.   Tongue

"When" is another matter.  My own opinion is never, as there are far more profitable long-term investments out there.  I suppose they'd make sense as a dense, portable, off-book store of wealth.  But I'm not that paranoid (yet), and even if I were, golds coins as currency would be cumbersome.  Try paying for a burger or a gallon of gas with a non-divisible $600 coin.

Creeping Incrementalism

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #98 on: January 07, 2007, 12:46:06 PM »
Thompson gunner, thanks for your posts in this thread, I found them educating, and they helped cut through the paranoia.  Their length was worth the effort.

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Fiat money isn't worth the paper it's printed o... Wait, WHAT!?
« Reply #99 on: January 07, 2007, 01:33:43 PM »
Thompson gunner, thanks for your posts in this thread, I found them educating, and they helped cut through the paranoia.  Their length was worth the effort.
Thanks for saying so.  I'm glad all that finger exercise wasn't wasted.   grin