Clinton Hopes Martin Case Leads to Reappraisal of 'SYG' Laws

[Jamie B]

http://gma.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs/president-clinton-hopes-trayvon-martin-case-leads-reappraisal-111305679--abc-news-politics.html

He said: "the American people should re-examine their position on that and ask: Is this really worth it? Are we really all that much safer taking the chance that this kind of thing could happen over and over and over again?"

I'll bet the Billy was surrounded with Secret Service agents when making his comments.

Arrogant overlord *expletive deleted*bag.

[HankB]

Maybe Clinton learned about the "facts" in the Martin case by watching NBC's Today show.

They had a segment where they played a 911 tape of Zimmerman saying: "This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black."

Well, Zimmerman did say that . . . but NBC conveniently left out a bit more of the call between those two sentences.

Here's a transcript of that part of the call:

Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy — is he black, white or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.

Changes the meaning a bit, eh? NBC claims to be "investigating" this, but I don't expect much to happen from a network that's fallen from its ethical high points of using video of machine guns being fired when reporting on a semi-auto ban and fitting GM pickup with incendiaries to make sure everyone sees how dangerous they are.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

http://jneilschulman.rationalreview.com/2012/03/what-george-zimmerman-really-said/

thanks to mb for this

[MicroBalrog]

Is George Zimmerman a murderer? Maybe. It seems to me he might be.

But whether he's a murderer has nothing to do with SYG laws.

If Zimmerman's claim were true  - and I do not know if it is - that Martin assaulted him and beat him terribly and incurred multiple injuries on his head, and then he killed Martin in self-defense - then SYG doesn't seem relevant, since Zimmerman could not have retreated safely.

If it is not true - and he initiated violence and shot Martin outside self-defense and committed manslaughter or murder, then surely SYG is also not valid. SYG is not a permit to randomly shoot people.

Do I misunderstand something?

[dogmush]

this young man was not armed, he clearly presented no threat to anybody's life

unarmed=/=no threat.  If Mr. Clinton would like (and would ask his body guards not to shoot me) I'd be happy to give him a quick block of instruction in Modern Army Combatives to illustrate this point.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-02/news/os-trayvon-martin-video-zimmerman-enhanced-20120402_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-shooting-original-video


yea  no threat

[Ben]

Biden has also made a comment about SYG needing to be "reevaluated". There are now several new potential laws being discussed, mostly by the congressional black caucus, to include revoking SYG and registration of neighborhood watch groups. Most of this talk in congress seems to be race based, so who knows if it will still have traction after this initial media frenzy about the case blows over.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/04/02/lawmakers-target-gun-laws-neighborhood-watch-in-wake-florida-teen-shooting/

[T.O.M.]

What MB said...this case has nothing to do with SYG laws, no matter how the "facts" turn out.  Everyone in the press and the angry people are attacking this law as being a license to kill without justification.  What they are missing is that self-defense is still self-defense.  All the SYG laws did was remove a duty to retreat to the wall before one can fall back on self-defense. 

[SADShooter]

What MB said...this case has nothing to do with SYG laws, no matter how the "facts" turn out.  Everyone in the press and the angry people are attacking this law as being a license to kill without justification.  What they are missing is that self-defense is still self-defense.  All the SYG laws did was remove a duty to retreat to the wall before one can fall back on self-defense. 

Which is the key point I have yet to hear any media articulate. The misconception seems to be that, absent SYG, Zimmerman would have been arrested/charged/arraigned by default. Is that so?

[Jamie B]

Chris and Ben mirror my thoughts on this.

Castle Doctrine and SYG laws need to exist.

The fact that any idiot (or idiots) can screw up an individual situation is the kicker.

Many of the current whining lawmakers seem to forget that this is why we have case law and judicial law in the US.

[41magsnub]

Chris and Ben mirror my thoughts on this.

Castle Doctrine and SYG laws need to exist.

The fact that any idiot (or idiots) can screw up an individual situation is the kicker.

Many of the current whining lawmakers seem to forget that this is why we have case law and judicial law in the US.

But they have to be seen doing something!

[Waitone]

I wasn't long after Zimmerman broke that I suspected there was more motivation to the protests other than "justice".  They then invoked SYG as being suspect.  Not too long thereafter I read stories about legislators in other states putting bills into the hopper to pare back SYG locally.  I think the objective of the Zimmerman flap is clear

[Jamie B]

But they have to be seen doing something!

True to a degree. If there are only 2 folks involved, and the living one calls SD, and there is no evidence to the contrary, then SD it is.
This is not new to American law,

[brimic]

He said: "the American people should re-examine their position on that and ask: Is this really worth it? Are we really all that much safer taking the chance that this kind of thing could happen over and over and over again?"

I'm not sure why Clinton cares that much. He's getting up there in age and isn't likely to become a corpse anymore for sexually assaulting the wrong woman who would benefit from this law.

[Jamie B]

Ack! Blue dress, blue dress!

[RoadKingLarry]

Notice how the turds calling for an and to SYG all have armed body guards, *expletive deleted*ck 'em.

[MechAg94]

True to a degree. If there are only 2 folks involved, and the living one calls SD, and there is no evidence to the contrary, then SD it is.
This is not new to American law,

That is kind of my thought though I would also say that the witness statements seem to support SD also.  Until something new is brought up, that is about it.  

I agree that Clinton is wrong and ignorant on the matter.  I think some of these people just want to be mentioned in the media good or bad.

[De Selby]

To be fair, the sanford PD first brought stand your ground into this - they claimed that because of SYG, they couldn't arrest Zimmerman on suspicion of a crime and continue their investigation as they would have in any other suspected homicide.  I think their reasoning was bad, but they were indeed the first to bring it up.

If SYG means that anyone who says "self defense!" must be left at the scene with his gun unless there's a video of the murder, I want it changed too.

[Regolith]

If SYG means that anyone who says "self defense!" must be left at the scene with his gun unless there's a video of the murder, I want it changed too.

Zimmerman was arrested, taken away in cuffs, and his gun confiscated. He simply wasn't indicted.

In what world is that "being left at the scene with his gun"?

[De Selby]

Zimmerman was arrested, taken away in cuffs, and his gun confiscated. He simply wasn't indicted.

In what world is that "being left at the scene with his gun"?

That's odd, because the city of Sanford has a written statement from the police chief about why Zimmerman wasn't arrested that night http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

[Regolith]

That's odd, because the city of Sanford has a written statement from the police chief about why Zimmerman wasn't arrested that night http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

Sure looks like he's in cuffs in this video:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-os-trayvon-martin-video-zimmerman-20120402,0,498809.story

Unless you think he's holding his hands behind his back for fun.

I suspect that the prosecutor was using "arrested" as another term for "indicted".  Legally, Zimmerman was placed under arrest, the prosecutor simply refused to indict him due to a lack of probable cause.

[De Selby]

A prosecutor doesn't indict, cuffs don't mean arrest.  Either way the Chief of Police would know what both those things mean.

[Regolith]

A prosecutor doesn't indict, cuffs don't mean arrest.  Either way the Chief of Police would know what both those things mean.

Legally, if you aren't free to go, you are under arrest. So yes, cuffs do mean arrest. And whether or not the prosecutor indicts depends on the jurisdiction; some places use grand juries, others give the power to indict to the prosecutor.   

For a lawyer, you sure seem to have trouble with some very basic legal terms.

[Jamie B]

Legally, if you aren't free to go, you are under arrest. So yes, cuffs do mean arrest. And whether or not the prosecutor indicts depends on the jurisdiction; some places use grand juries, others give the power to indict to the prosecutor.   

For a lawyer, you sure seem to have trouble with some very basic legal terms.

Regolith nailed it in many ways,

Arrest - A seizure or forcible restraint; an exercise of the power to deprive a person of his or her liberty; the taking or keeping of a person in custody by legal authority, especially, in response to a criminal charge.

An arrest may occur (1) by the touching or putting hands on the arrestee; (2) by any act that indicates an intention to take the arrestee into custody and that subjects the arrestee to the actual control and will of the person making the arrest; or (3) by the consent of the person to be arrested. There is no arrest where there is no restraint, and the restraint must be under real or pretended legal authority. However, the detention of a person need not be accompanied by formal words of arrest or a station house booking to constitute an arrest.

[stevelyn]

For someone trained up as a lawyer (albeit a disgraced one) he sure dosn't know much on how to to apply it.