Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Angel Eyes on April 30, 2019, 01:17:49 PM
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The crew has her steamed up at the engine house, running some tests:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWpODg11xkI
Looking forward to seeing this beast run again.
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Jeez... that thing burns No. 5 fuel oil...
It requires preheating to about 200 degrees F to atomize properly, from what I'm reading. I wonder how that was accomplished when the locomotive was running... steam lines in the tender?
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Jeez... that thing burns No. 5 fuel oil...
It requires preheating to about 200 degrees F to atomize properly, from what I'm reading. I wonder how that was accomplished when the locomotive was running... steam lines in the tender?
Originally coal, I wonder if they warm the boiler up with diesel fuel, once hot enough use steam to warm the #5 oil up, or do a blend of #5 and diesel for warm up?
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First thing that occurs to me is that they run it "improperly" until it self-warms enough to atomize "properly."
Sort of like firing up one of those old gasoline blowtorches, where you burn some gas under the coils until the gas in the coils vaporizes. I'm pretty sure I gave the one I had from my Pop to one of my sons.
I loves me them old engines. For similar interest, look up Engine 844. My second degree fame claim is they parked it next to my building in downtown Denver (right on the old Union Station side tracks) for a week or so and I talked to the engineers and others. You may touch the hem of my robe. Only $7.50 per touch.
Apparently, the PR aspects are worth it, since they're now refurbishing this one. (Of course, 844 had a souvenir shop behind the tender, but I can't imagine the income from that was what made keeping it running worthwhile.)
Terry
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"First thing that occurs to me is that they run it "improperly" until it self-warms enough to atomize "properly.""
From what I understand about the heavier grades of fuel oil doing so will damage fuel pumps, lines, and injector nozzles.
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I've read that #5 is sometimes mixed with #2 for cold weather starts. Or, being in a rail yard where they may have steam generators for various purposes, maybe the pipe external steam to the tender/tanker and preheat the fuel before starting.
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That's what I'm thinking, that they have preheaters.
But, thinking about it even more, railroad locomotives started to be equipped with dynamos (and later generators) in the late 1800s/early 1900s as they started moving to electric lighting.
Some of the first electric locomotive lights were carbon arc lamps, and you need a lot of juice to get those things cooked. Later incandescent lights became the standard, probably around WW I.
So, I'm thinking that the preheaters weren't steam, they were electric.
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That's what I'm thinking, that they have preheaters.
But, thinking about it even more, railroad locomotives started to be equipped with dynamos (and later generators) in the late 1800s/early 1900s as they started moving to electric lighting.
Some of the first electric locomotive lights were carbon arc lamps, and you need a lot of juice to get those things cooked. Later incandescent lights became the standard, probably around WW I.
So, I'm thinking that the preheaters weren't steam, they were electric.
Here is some more info:
https://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php?topic=20217.0;wap2
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Interesting stuff, but his preheat temperatures are way off.
Bunker C oil is like tar at 70 degrees F and nearly solid at 50 degrees F. It won't flow easily until it's well over 150 degrees F.
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Test run:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjoMBKWW0ag
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That's very cool.
I can't help nut notice however, that diesel-electric acting as caboose was up and running. Recovery vehicle perhaps?
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That's very cool.
I can't help nut notice however, that diesel-electric acting as caboose was up and running. Recovery vehicle perhaps?
Braking? Or pusher so they can break in the rebuilt steam cylinders in under a lighter load. Looks like they are going up a grade, maybe just to push up the hills?
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The diesel on the back end is most likely insurance in case #4014 breaks down.
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Interesting stuff, but his preheat temperatures are way off.
Bunker C oil is like tar at 70 degrees F and nearly solid at 50 degrees F. It won't flow easily until it's well over 150 degrees F.
70 degrees Celsius is 158 degrees Fahrenheit ...
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He was talking celsius?
Still too low.
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
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He was talking celsius?
Still too low.
Maybe not if it was cut with some #2 for start-up. They might even start it up on straight diesel. #5 gets used for industrial stuff because it's cheaper and because it has a higher specific heat, but using a bit of #2 just to get things firing wouldn't affect overall economy of operation or power output.
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Even if you started it with diesel you'd need someway of bringing 28 tons of fuel oil in the tender up to a workable temperature before it could be used.
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First thing that occurs to me is that they run it "improperly" until it self-warms enough to atomize "properly."
Sort of like firing up one of those old gasoline blowtorches, where you burn some gas under the coils until the gas in the coils vaporizes. I'm pretty sure I gave the one I had from my Pop to one of my sons.
I loves me them old engines. For similar interest, look up Engine 844. My second degree fame claim is they parked it next to my building in downtown Denver (right on the old Union Station side tracks) for a week or so and I talked to the engineers and others. You may touch the hem of my robe. Only $7.50 per touch.
Apparently, the PR aspects are worth it, since they're now refurbishing this one. (Of course, 844 had a souvenir shop behind the tender, but I can't imagine the income from that was what made keeping it running worthwhile.)
Terry
They brought 844 through here a couple of years ago. I managed to get a few decent pics.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/33894522848_b410853b5b_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/TD9hLY)
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I got curious and spent a little bit of time poking about on the internet trying to find the answer.
It appears as though under normal operation, an Oil Fired Locomotive doesn't start itself. It hooks up to shop steam to preheat the oil and run the atomizer until it works up it's own head.
There are a couple of mentions of UP having boiler cars in the train to assist with cold starts if the locomotive went out, but they seem to talk about those mostly being for low pressure steam to heat the passenger cars and only start the locomotive in an emergency.
I found one discussion thread where folks seem to be talking like they had driven some, and one guy mentions that his locomotive had a "t" in the fuel line and an overhead diesel tanks so they could run the burner on diesel and air from a compressor until they got 20-25 lbs of steam to preheat the Bunker oil, but that seems to be an add on after the big steam shops all closed down, and folks were restoring the engines.
Thread here: https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?10,3483317
It's pretty neat discussion. Another guy mentions a Lumber company using Propane to light boilers out in the woods.
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Zo, ve haf vays to machen der engine to schtart.
And starting may not happen as often as one might think. Of course I have no way of knowing how often a showpiece like Big Boy will need to be started, but I wonder if in regular service steam locomotives were treated like diesels are today. I spent seven years on a construction project in a major rail yard. Locomotives that were in cold storage or in the shop for repair were cold, but the ones being used didn't ever shut down. They parked them overnight, over weekends, and over long holiday weekends and just left them idling. Even for modern diesels, it's just too much work to start them up -- they prefer to just let 'em run.
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Here I was thinkin the Diesel-Electric locomotive was to "bump start" the other one...
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Here I was thinkin the Diesel-Electric locomotive was to "bump start" the other one...
Ha-ha... no, they're self-starting.
No "starting capacitor" or giant hand crank or pony engines needed. Put steam into two (or four) double-acting cylinders, and off it goes.
As noted, there were probably other reasons for the diesel engine. I'm thinking maybe for braking power as well.* Or maybe for modern communications with dispatch and the rest of the RR's electronic systems. Could also be for recording performance values.
Terry
* ETA I just noticed Charby had mentioned braking already.
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Ha-ha... no, they're self-starting.
No "starting capacitor" or giant hand crank or pony engines needed. Put steam into two (or four) double-acting cylinders, and off it goes.
As noted, there were probably other reasons for the diesel engine. I'm thinking maybe for braking power as well.* Or maybe for modern communications with dispatch and the rest of the RR's electronic systems. Could also be for recording performance values.
Terry
* ETA I just noticed Charby had mentioned braking already.
Ya DO know I already knew that and was just being my sarcastic self, right? :P
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I knew dat.
That's why I put the "Ha-ha" in.
The rest of it was in case other people didn't know that.
A very, very, very rare sight:
https://youtu.be/feSCpDimsQI (1:30)
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Diesel electric locomotives are started in one of two ways:
1. Most commonly, an electric starter motor run off batteries or a pony cart.
2. Air power replaces the battery to turn the starter motor or, in some cases, air is piped into the cylinders to turn the engine. Once it was up to speed, fuel was introduced and the engine fired. This way is apparently obsolete.
Good information here: http://www.railway-technical.com/trains/rolling-stock-index-l/diesel-locomotives/
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:facepalm:
I thought they just got them rolling and then popped the clutch.
>:D
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Diesel electric locomotives are started in one of two ways:
1. Most commonly, an electric starter motor run off batteries or a pony cart.
2. Air power replaces the battery to turn the starter motor or, in some cases, air is piped into the cylinders to turn the engine. Once it was up to speed, fuel was introduced and the engine fired. This way is apparently obsolete.
Good information here: http://www.railway-technical.com/trains/rolling-stock-index-l/diesel-locomotives/
I've noticed that in the Chieftain's youtude tank videos a lot of tanks for in cases of a dead battery or no battery that they had compressed air tanks for starting
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The T 34 had a compressed air starter.
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
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Air start on the 4, 12-278a GM Diesel/Electric Generators I worked on in the Navy. :old:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fmisc%2FGM12-278a.jpg&hash=1d1e07ebdf41d0eef9aa19710f254536e6826724)
I'm 6'1" and that puppy was a good deal taller than I was! It had 12, 278 cu. in. cylinders, was 2-stroke with 4 overhead exhaust valves and piston port intakes at the bottom of the cylinders.
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Big Boy just steamed 5 blocks from house, even standing 35' feet from the crossing, the heat was almost too much to bear for very long. Nice hearing a steam whistle in town for the afternoon.
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Air start on the 4, 12-278a GM Diesel/Electric Generators I worked on in the Navy. :old:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fmisc%2FGM12-278a.jpg&hash=1d1e07ebdf41d0eef9aa19710f254536e6826724)
I'm 6'1" and that puppy was a good deal taller than I was! It had 12, 278 cu. in. cylinders, was 2-stroke with 4 overhead exhaust valves and piston port intakes at the bottom of the cylinders.
Bet I could make that fit in an El Camino.
Brad
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ON, maybe...
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Bet I could make that fit in an El Camino.
Brad
Meh. You want to do something impressive shoehorn that into a Pinto.
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Big Boy just steamed 5 blocks from house, even standing 35' feet from the crossing, the heat was almost too much to bear for very long. Nice hearing a steam whistle in town for the afternoon.
Heat from what? The ejected steam?
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Heat from what? The ejected steam?
The boiler, it was pulling slow up a long hill.
Ever stood near a steam locomotive at operating temps?
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I can't find the diminsions for the 12-278A GM Diesel ANYWHERE! I would love to know the Height, Width and Length as well as its weight.
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The boiler, it was pulling slow up a long hill.
More likely the firebox and/or smokebox. The boiler is covered in insulation.
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I figure any firebox that can produce 6300 hp at the wheels has got to radiate some extra heat from somewhere.
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More likely the firebox and/or smokebox. The boiler is covered in insulation.
I was being general in the description, not everyone is foamer detailed.
You could feel the heat blast as the locomotive approached my location.
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More likely the firebox and/or smokebox. The boiler is covered in insulation.
Yeah, the boiler is covered in insulation... but it by no means stops the heat from radiating. A locomotive that's been fired and working puts off a tremendous amount of heat.
I've been in the cab of a working steam locomotive and it's hotter than balls back there, as well.
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Ever stood near a steam locomotive at operating temps?
Nope. Those things are mostly extinct.
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Yeah, the boiler is covered in insulation... but it by no means stops the heat from radiating. A locomotive that's been fired and working puts off a tremendous amount of heat.
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Yes, the insulation is lagging.
Terry
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Nope. Those things are mostly extinct.
I hope you get a chance, truly impressive.
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From a 2008 trip to Colorado I took with Dad. Cumbres & Toltec line. Pic was at the river crossing on the north side of Chama, NM. Not a Big Boy. Not even close. Engineer said they run everything at pretty sedate temps and pressures to help with reliability and longevity. You could still feel the heat as it went by, though.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/3264/2722991707_02e4696756_o.jpg)
Brad
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I have three of my Grandfather's books from his employment, other then a pocket knife and a pocket watch, the only things of his I have:
(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67409493_10216649313962538_4265579304399667200_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_oc=AQm-FcAIaOIVeTGIb0CWSB2WnT48ZMvBOfhNH5hbyC2FyW0pZ3KDULcp-HET_4T3Bbg&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-1.xx&oh=f4a0fdf44622f9a08f592b131ba5ce65&oe=5DBC4588)
(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67133035_10216649310962463_8229311176274608128_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_oc=AQmBE38i0CFVeWylLcn4ljU-otk8WXIpFERZT5pajtRlO0fgrzXhD8N8Y4YOjQ1TG4s&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-1.xx&oh=7f48cfc2d88c5bd578170c1d82da1578&oe=5DB76624)
(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67249246_10216649314802559_6868197355401773056_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_oc=AQmToPRzP0-79rnuYC-1aPHNB0zX4exfaQ-j2ah8-Nxs31FnyJnpS4ZyjTV78yYIWAE&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-1.xx&oh=fdaf61058dc9f58b9854fe9ad6ba1cde&oe=5DAE355C)
(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/66998679_10216649311642480_6272614030012055552_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_oc=AQmEVWQtvA47gIzRI89JUUn98s3DT91CGwUIn9J-T3JdOqS2r9ov7y-A-OjfD92IBtc&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-1.xx&oh=48ad1678e4d359b0e91cb0b4a2d85955&oe=5DEDA346)
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/3264/2722991707_02e4696756_o.jpg)
Cool! Did you use a long selfie stick or just jump nimbly out of the way?
I've got my father's NYC Fire Department Certificate of Fitness ($3.00 fee) for being a welder from the 1930s but there's nothing in it of special interest except his photo.
The $3.00 would have been about $43.00 today if my arithmetic is correct.
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Yes, the insulation is lagging.
Terry
What you did there. I see it.
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Yes, the insulation is lagging.
Terry
The insulation is lagging what? Lagging behind the train? BBBBBBBBBBBBBWWWWWWWWWWWWHAHAHAHA!
I'm here for the rest of your lives, folks!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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The insulation is lagging what? Lagging behind the train? BBBBBBBBBBBBBWWWWWWWWWWWWHAHAHAHA!
I'm here for the rest of your lives, folks!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
You OK there, Mike? Everything cool?
Lagging noun-like versus lagging verb-like.
Terry
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Yeah, I know the difference, Terry.
I get jokes. Do you get jokes?
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Yeah, I know the difference, Terry.
I get jokes. Do you get jokes?
Not that one, but OK.
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Lagging - The insulation installed around a boiler
Also
Lagging - gerund or present participle of lag, meaning to fall behind, trail, or not keep pace
Play on words. In other words, a joke....
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/db/ed/2f/dbed2fa3323085c90b7e2f9a15d17cf6--simpsons-meme-homer-simpson.jpg)
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While I was working today, wifey went downtown and saw 4014. Wish I could have gone. I didn't know it was even here.