Author Topic: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder  (Read 9672 times)

Balog

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People right now have legally issued tax stamps for post '86 machineguns that were issued to trusts due to some phrasing in 922(o) relating to persons. ATF sent them out, then (after folks had legally made new post 86 MG's on their stamps) attempted to get them back and stopped issuing new ones. These are the suits filed over that matter.

If this works, the Hughes Amendment will be effectively over and the machinegun registry will be reopened. Get excited folks, this is the real deal. If you want to see legal post '86 machineguns, then please consider donating. Links

Filing law firm: http://www.sdslaw.us/#!nfa-cases/c1xu9

Arfcom megathread started by NoloContendere, the lawyer doing the filing. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1681489_NFA_Lawsuit_Cases__2nd_Case_filed_11_14_2014_.html

Hollis v Holder complaint http://www.scribd.com/doc/245057730/Hollis-v-Holder-Complaint

Watson v Holder complaint http://www.scribd.com/doc/246633381/Watson-v-Holder-et-al
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AJ Dual

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Re: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2014, 12:47:33 AM »
I'm still more concerned about rule 41p closing off the use of trusts for those in urban areas with non-signing CLEO's, but this would be damn nice if it went our way.  =)
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Balog

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Re: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2014, 12:06:26 PM »
I'm still more concerned about rule 41p closing off the use of trusts for those in urban areas with non-signing CLEO's, but this would be damn nice if it went our way.  =)

I agree 41p is a bigger deal, but afaik there's not much we can really do about that right at the moment is there?
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

AJ Dual

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Re: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2014, 11:08:07 PM »
I agree 41p is a bigger deal, but afaik there's not much we can really do about that right at the moment is there?

AFAIK, it's going to be tied up in lawsuits if the ATFE implements it. Both under the Federal agency rulemaking process irregularities, and on points of the '34 NFA, and the legal status of trusts, persons, corps etc. IMO, the whole machinegun suit ties into it, because rule 41p rationale (besides just screwing with us...) is based on "trusts and corps not being persons". So the individuals in the corp or trust "need" to have CLEO sign-off, prints, photos etc.  However, the Hughes amendment to the '86 FOPA specified "No person shall own a machine gun produced after..." etc. So if 41p is upheld because "trusts aren't people", then Hughes doesn't apply to trusts.

So if it's not opening up MG ownership to trusts, it's at least a huge Pyrrhic victory to make the cost of screwing us with 41p awfully high.

The ATF seems to know they've stepped in it because they've already delayed 41p by 10 months, it was supposed to go into effect in June of this year, got delayed to March of '15 because of the onslaught of comments, and another delay is possible.

IMO, Obama/Holder just wanted the media optics of "gun control via pen/phone EO fiat", the actual implementation probably doesn't matter much to them. And with any luck, the court cases will run out the clock on the Obama admin altogether, then just be dropped. Maybe even doing away with the CLEO sign-off altogether, because the intent back in '34 was a de-facto background check, which is no longer needed in the era of NICS.
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Northwoods

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Re: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2014, 12:41:01 AM »
Neato.  If it goes through I might be able to afford a noisemaker.  They are fun to shoot.  Definitely would need a Dillon 650 (or is 550) to feed something like that.
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Fly320s

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Re: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2014, 08:51:12 AM »
Neato.  If it goes through I might be able to afford a noisemaker.  They are fun to shoot.  Definitely would need a Dillon 650 (or is 550) to feed something like that.

Go for the Super 1050 with the aftermarket electric motor.
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

Pb

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Re: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2014, 10:39:01 AM »
These guys are 100% right about everything, but they are wasting there time and money.

We haven't been able to get a single court ANYWHERE to say that semiautomatic gun bans and magazine bans are unconstitutional, and they are going for machineguns?

It would be wonderful if this worked, but I can't imagine that it will.

It would be more productive to continue to go after assault weapon and mag bans first.

Balog

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Re: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2014, 11:36:32 AM »
These guys are 100% right about everything, but they are wasting there time and money.

We haven't been able to get a single court ANYWHERE to say that semiautomatic gun bans and magazine bans are unconstitutional, and they are going for machineguns?

It would be wonderful if this worked, but I can't imagine that it will.

It would be more productive to continue to go after assault weapon and mag bans first.

I don't think you've read the basis of the complaints.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

AJ Dual

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Re: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2014, 12:57:30 PM »
These guys are 100% right about everything, but they are wasting there time and money.

We haven't been able to get a single court ANYWHERE to say that semiautomatic gun bans and magazine bans are unconstitutional, and they are going for machineguns?

It would be wonderful if this worked, but I can't imagine that it will.

It would be more productive to continue to go after assault weapon and mag bans first.

"Gun control" isn't some contiguous spectrum. It's a bunch of discrete legal issues. And they have a legal opening to go after the Rule 41p "trusts aren't people" and the zinger-gotcha of Hughes says "people" can't own machine guns...

There's no case to go after these lower hanging fruit... yet.
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MechAg94

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Re: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2014, 01:53:42 PM »
These guys are 100% right about everything, but they are wasting there time and money.

We haven't been able to get a single court ANYWHERE to say that semiautomatic gun bans and magazine bans are unconstitutional, and they are going for machineguns?

It would be wonderful if this worked, but I can't imagine that it will.

It would be more productive to continue to go after assault weapon and mag bans first.
I would also point out that we are still talking about legally registered machine guns, not general gun sales.  That might make it easier to get it past the "reasonable restrictions" crowd. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Pb

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Re: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2014, 01:40:58 PM »
AW bans are the low hanging fruit and no court in the entire country has said those are unconstitutional yet.

Courts aren't interested in what is right, fair and constitutional.  They are like most people.  If the gun is icky, they will ignore the constitution, the law, reason and anything else to find what they want.

The most "conservative" court in the entire country upheld an AW and Mag ban (DC's) not too long again.  All three judges were appointed by Republicans.  Only one voted against the ban.

Good luck to them!  Like I said, their arguments are 100% correct.  I but I wouldn't be a dollar against $1000 that they will win though.

Nick1911

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Re: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2014, 03:07:37 PM »
I have to agree with BTR.

Law is inherently a human institution.  It doesn't actually matter if something is constitutional or not.  The establishment will preserve the desired outcome they want regardless of legal and logical arguments to the contrary.  What will happen here?  Either the case will be lost though counter-intuitive or reaching interpretation [1][2], or they will immediately change the law. [3]

RevDisk

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Re: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2014, 04:06:11 PM »
Concur with Nick. Our legal system will not follow the rule of law and will preserve the status quo or desired outcome regardless of what they should rule. The original Miller case is a perfect example. Hell, mention the 9th or 10th Amendment to any judge and you'll get laughed down. Or the magical expanding commerce clause, or general welfare clause. Or sovereign immunity. Or judicial review.

*shrug*

They're judges. They'll find a way to get the outcome they want. Still, this is a nice little no-win for the BATFE. Technically, either 41p or the auto registry closure needs to go. Yes, a judge can still Matrix dive through to keep the registry closed and implement 41p, but it'll be fun to watch in the mean time. Who knows, maybe the judges will be honest or remotely care about the law. Stranger things do happen.
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Balog

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Re: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2014, 04:22:57 PM »
Honestly curious, what were your thoughts on Heller, McDonald, and the latest CCW in CA case before they went to trial?
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

RevDisk

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Re: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2014, 05:06:57 PM »
Honestly curious, what were your thoughts on Heller, McDonald, and the latest CCW in CA case before they went to trial?

Mildly surprised and happy. I'm cautiously optimistic that either 41p or the registry ban will die, but I expect a mild victory with a lot of hedging.

Same as Heller, McDonald, etc. Yes, we won. But the decisions included absolutely tons of open ended qualifiers. Essentially they said blanket bans per se were out, but reasonable restrictions were ok. Without quantifying or itemizing said reasonable restrictions. They spent a lot of words talking about reasonable infringement which someone could use for guidance, but again, it's not all inclusive.

Heller and McDonald were grand strategic victories, but mild tactical ones when it came to what rights we're regaining. This is in no way a bad thing. I'll take "DC went too far, they need to rewrite" hedged decision over the alternative.

SCOTUS will never hand down a sweeping, decisive and specific ruling. Nature of the beast. I expect the same. A mild victory, that will be more finely resolved by yet more lawsuits. Repeat until heat death of the universe.

"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Pb

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Re: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2014, 05:17:09 PM »
Heller, McDonald and the CCW cases are only the judges accepting what the general population in the country accepts and is normal law in most states in the country...

Opening the machinegun registery is entirely different from this, sad to say.

Nick1911

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Re: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2014, 05:22:01 PM »
Honestly curious, what were your thoughts on Heller, McDonald, and the latest CCW in CA case before they went to trial?

I was honestly unsure how some of the CCW cases would go.  I started a thread asking for APS's opinions to try to better understand the landscape at the time.  http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=12973.0

Balog

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Re: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2014, 05:39:42 PM »
Mildly surprised and happy. I'm cautiously optimistic that either 41p or the registry ban will die, but I expect a mild victory with a lot of hedging.

Same as Heller, McDonald, etc. Yes, we won. But the decisions included absolutely tons of open ended qualifiers. Essentially they said blanket bans per se were out, but reasonable restrictions were ok. Without quantifying or itemizing said reasonable restrictions. They spent a lot of words talking about reasonable infringement which someone could use for guidance, but again, it's not all inclusive.

Heller and McDonald were grand strategic victories, but mild tactical ones when it came to what rights we're regaining. This is in no way a bad thing. I'll take "DC went too far, they need to rewrite" hedged decision over the alternative.

SCOTUS will never hand down a sweeping, decisive and specific ruling. Nature of the beast. I expect the same. A mild victory, that will be more finely resolved by yet more lawsuits. Repeat until heat death of the universe.



Incrementalism got us to where we are. And every tiny step forward helps open up the culture, which is really what needs to change.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Balog

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Re: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2014, 12:20:54 AM »
Totally forgot to include the link to donate to support this.  :facepalm:

http://www.gofundme.com/fmxlnk
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

AJ Dual

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Re: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2014, 12:59:03 AM »
I don't think opening up the MG registry is really that extreme, if one considers the paperwork, fees/taxes etc. that goes into it, and that the only person to ever commit a murder with a NFA-registered MG was a crooked cop killing off an informant, it's plausible.

However, I think using it as a hammer to kill off 41p is the most likely outcome.
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Pb

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Re: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2014, 10:14:29 AM »
I don't think saying we have a right to own an 11 round pistol magazine is extreme either, and not a single court in the entire country has agreed with that.   :facepalm:

AJ Dual

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Re: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2014, 10:30:14 AM »
I don't think saying we have a right to own an 11 round pistol magazine is extreme either, and not a single court in the entire country has agreed with that.   :facepalm:

You're still not getting it. There is a very specific documented conflict in the legal language between the proposed rule 41p about "persons" and trusts, vs. the use of "persons" in the Hughes Amendment. legal opportunities do not come along like this every day.

Yes, I suppose there's standing to file more generic lawsuits over magazine bans, or firearm bans under 2nd Amendment scrutiny/Heller etc. however there are no clear conflicts of written law, and administrative rule-making that pins down the court forcing them to decide, at least in theory in a way that's win-win, no matter what they decide.

Whether opening the MG registry is higher up on the "wants vs. needs" list of RKBA or not as we see it does not play into this. Whether a semi-auto ban or magazine capacity limits is more fundamental to overall RKBA than NFA post-'86 MG's is irrelevant. It's an issue of the legal logic, the openings in the law that give you the legal advantage period.

The analogy is like one of a civil lawsuit. Say a company defrauded you out of both $10,000 dollars and $1,000,000 dollars in two separate instances. However you've got more in the way of invoices, bank statements, and paperwork proving the $10,000 theft happened, while the $1,000,000 is a more nebulous issue of "he said, she said" for the moment.

Despite the fact that $1,000,000 is so much  more money, legally, the best strategy is to go after the $10,000 first, because you're more likely to win, and if/when you do win, you've now created the legal precedent that this company has defrauded you, and more legal remedies may be forthcoming.

Football, it's kicking a field goal on 4th down for a much more guaranteed gain in points, rather than a risky last try at a touchdown.

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Pb

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Re: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2014, 01:34:26 PM »
AJ, I do get it.  Like I said, the folks making the argument are 100% legally right.

But it doesn't matter....

The courts will not open the registry no matter how right these folks are.

I guess I am a killjoy, but I don't want people getting excited about stuff like this.  I used to be excited about cases like this too.

Balog

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Re: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2014, 01:39:35 PM »
AJ, I do get it.  Like I said, the folks making the argument are 100% legally right.

But it doesn't matter....

The courts will not open the registry no matter how right these folks are.

I guess I am a killjoy, but I don't want people getting excited about stuff like this.  I used to be excited about cases like this too.

You probably said the same thing about carry in Chicago and CA and DC.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

MechAg94

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Re: NFA lawsuits re post '86 machineguns: Hollis v Holder and Watson v Holder
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2014, 02:19:21 PM »
AJ, I do get it.  Like I said, the folks making the argument are 100% legally right.

But it doesn't matter....

The courts will not open the registry no matter how right these folks are.

I guess I am a killjoy, but I don't want people getting excited about stuff like this.  I used to be excited about cases like this too.
I wouldn't say I am excited about it.  The only reason I think the courts may be less resistant in this case is because we are talking about registered guns.  The lawyer would be smart to stress that.
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