Maybe it really is too late

[charby]

Was that what the warrant was for?

Here you go if you want to read it for yourself. http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2014302060037&nclick_check=1
 
Warrant was to collect items that are considered evidence.

Many of the residence had priors and there were active warrants for others.

[dogmush]

How would one do that with knocking in a way that woukd keep someone from wiping a hard drive?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

Well that particular one is pretty, easy because it's kinda time intensive to actually erase data to the point that a computer geek can't get it back.

But it's also beside the point.  The point is that yes, you'll lose some evidence.  The risks inherent in violent entry are not worth the gain of material evidence in many, many cases. So some criminals are going to get away. 

It's telling, I feel, when civilian police in the US are worse at being civil to the folks they are policing then the standards set by the Army in a war zone. 

Sit back and contemplate that for a second.

[charby]

It's telling, I feel, when civilian police in the US are worse at being civil to the folks they are policing then the standards set by the Army in a war zone. 

If someone stole your wallet full of credit cards/ID/Cash/Photos and the cops determined who they were, how would you want the police to treat the thieves?

[Balog]

If someone stole your wallet full of credit cards/ID/Cash/Photos and the cops determined who they were, how would you want the police to treat the thieves?

Like innocent until proven guilty American citizens accused of a non-violent crime. Instead we have para-military raids for credit card fraud and in the case of actual violent criminals we just burn them alive.

But yeah, grrr thieves. 

[dogmush]

If someone stole your wallet full of credit cards/ID/Cash/Photos and the cops determined who they were, how would you want the police to treat the thieves?

I would want them to try and get it back for me, and to arrest the thieves and put them in jail.

That said, and I mean this, there is NOTHING in my wallet that I would even want a dog shot over.  Never mind risking police and bystanders lives. My Credit cards numbers get stolen on a regular basis.  Between my wife and I we have 8 or 9 different card numbers and at least once a year (on average) one of those numbers gets snagged.  It's no big deal on my end. Issuing bank sends me a new one, and I verify which charges are mine and don't pay for the fraudulent ones.  The worst I ever had was a couple hundred bucks tied up for 72 hrs when they snagged my debit card number.  Annoying yes, but not worth kicking in doors over.

To reverse the question, would you personally raid a house for a stolen credit card?  If you wouldn't, don't send agents in to do it in your name.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

When you gentlemen were rauding houses how were you dressed? How many were in your group? And what other  resources backed you up? Choppers and such? What arms were as authorized?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

[dogmush]

When you gentlemen were rauding houses how were you dressed? How many were in your group? And what other  resources backed you up? Choppers and such? What arms were as authorized?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

The vast majority of my training and experience is Vessel Boarding and Defense. So in order: ACU's with IOTV and ACH, 4 inclusive of me, none, nope, M16, M4, M9, and one M26 shotgun (or Mossberg 500).

Landside Cordon and Search is a bit different and will have different TTP's. 

Why?  I started my comments in this thread saying that for doing an entry these guys were doing OK which is not the standard for LEO's.  The issue is when they choose to do one.  If it was a justified assault I have no issue with the body armor, M4's and armored vehicles.

[Fitz]

How would one do that with knocking in a way that woukd keep someone from wiping a hard drive?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

If your standard is "keep them from wiping it so thoroughly that it cannot be recovered by experts that exist all over the country," then you can take an hour or more to get in, if you like

As for charby, someone stealing my credit card does not deserve death, and no knocks lead to that entirely too often

[Firethorn]

If your standard is "keep them from wiping it so thoroughly that it cannot be recovered by experts that exist all over the country," then you can take an hour or more to get in, if you like

Your mistake is that you're assuming a method to be used that gives you a still-functional HD at the end of it.  If police are at the door I don't care about saving some pissant $60 hardware device that might put me away for X years.  My illegal porn/drug notes/fake/stolen ID's/stolen classified documents/conspiracy theories/etc...  are going away.

If I'm set up, you have at most 30 seconds before not even the NSA can recover it.
Options:
1.  Permanent magnet degausser - take loose HD, feed through, gone.  Takes ~15 seconds once I start cranking.
2.  HD is in a heavy ceramic urn(using an extension cable) with thermite piled over it and an ignition device wired to a button(and/or timer).  Good luck recovering it while the thermite is still going...
3.  HD is wrapped in coils hooked up to a switch on household ac power.
4.  HD has a key secured truecrypt partition.  Destroy ~2k of information, the rest of the HD is useless.  Simply writing over the key would be enough.  One option is to store the key in a RAM device where if power is cut it goes by-by.  Hitting the button/yanking the cord powers down the system and renders all unaccessable.  There are usb-key devices that will erase themselves if you push a button. 

[dogmush]

Your mistake is that you're assuming a method to be used that gives you a still-functional HD at the end of it.  If police are at the door I don't care about saving some pissant $60 hardware device that might put me away for X years.  My illegal porn/drug notes/fake/stolen ID's/stolen classified documents/conspiracy theories/etc...  are going away.

If I'm set up, you have at most 30 seconds before not even the NSA can recover it.
Options:
1.  Permanent magnet degausser - take loose HD, feed through, gone.  Takes ~15 seconds once I start cranking.
2.  HD is in a heavy ceramic urn(using an extension cable) with thermite piled over it and an ignition device wired to a button(and/or timer).  Good luck recovering it while the thermite is still going...
3.  HD is wrapped in coils hooked up to a switch on household ac power.
4.  HD has a key secured truecrypt partition.  Destroy ~2k of information, the rest of the HD is useless.  Simply writing over the key would be enough.  One option is to store the key in a RAM device where if power is cut it goes by-by.  Hitting the button/yanking the cord powers down the system and renders all unaccessable.  There are usb-key devices that will erase themselves if you push a button. 

True, but anyone sophisticated enough to have those methods ready to go, can (and likely will) have them wired to a door switch so that if the door kicks open at 0300 the evidence goes up anyway.  I know I would, among other more nefarious ideas if I were in a trade that made an unexpected police visit probable.

[Perd Hapley]

Your mistake is that you're assuming a method to be used that gives you a still-functional HD at the end of it.  If police are at the door I don't care about saving some pissant $60 hardware device that might put me away for X years.  My illegal porn/drug notes/fake/stolen ID's/stolen classified documents/conspiracy theories/etc...  are going away.

If I'm set up, you have at most 30 seconds before not even the NSA can recover it.
Options:
1.  Permanent magnet degausser - take loose HD, feed through, gone.  Takes ~15 seconds once I start cranking.
2.  HD is in a heavy ceramic urn(using an extension cable) with thermite piled over it and an ignition device wired to a button(and/or timer).  Good luck recovering it while the thermite is still going...
3.  HD is wrapped in coils hooked up to a switch on household ac power.
4.  HD has a key secured truecrypt partition.  Destroy ~2k of information, the rest of the HD is useless.  Simply writing over the key would be enough.  One option is to store the key in a RAM device where if power is cut it goes by-by.  Hitting the button/yanking the cord powers down the system and renders all unaccessable.  There are usb-key devices that will erase themselves if you push a button. 

I would imagine that's a rare scenario, since it involves thieves that are fairly intelligent and disciplined, but not so intelligent and disciplined as to avoid getting caught.

I would also think a simpler set-up would be an external HD and a sledgehammer. Or just have the HD sitting under a compound miter saw. 

[charby]

As for charby, someone stealing my credit card does not deserve death, and no knocks lead to that entirely too often

When is the last time there was an article about a no knock warrant where someone died who wasn't returning fire or was a criminal?

Also in this case with several people living under one roof who are all suspects, how do you capture them in a way that one doesn't tip another one off that they are about to get arrested. Perhaps these no knock warrants are used because of all the modern communications we have and sometimes perps need to be taken by surprise to be captured.

[Firethorn]

True, but anyone sophisticated enough to have those methods ready to go, can (and likely will) have them wired to a door switch so that if the door kicks open at 0300 the evidence goes up anyway.  I know I would, among other more nefarious ideas if I were in a trade that made an unexpected police visit probable.

Oh yes, I'd very much have door/window switches in place.  Shouldn't even be that hard - have a wire loosely tied together keeping a circuit up that holds the relay to the destruction system open.  Anything seperates that wire, *poof*.

As a side note, once the police kick your door in, even if you get off, *DON'T* return to that business, they'll be on the watch for stuff like that and do it a different way.

I would also think a simpler set-up would be an external HD and a sledgehammer. Or just have the HD sitting under a compound miter saw. 

Simpler, yes.  Reliable, no.  Remember the stadard isn't whether the HD remains operational, it's whether the lab boys can pull the information off the platters.  Compound miter saw might work though.

I think that a system that can activate in case of a power failure would be best.  Of course, you just need an UPS for some of it.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Thickness planer

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

[fifth_column]

Seems to me there should be sufficient evidence already gathered, before executing a raid. 

Otherwise they're just asking the judge to issue a no-knock based on nothing more than suspicion of criminal activity.

Actually, that's pretty much the state of affairs in policing today . . .

[Tallpine]

Has anyone ever noticed that the 4th amendment does NOT say:

The right of the police to gather evidence shall not be infringed.

   

If someone stole your wallet full of credit cards/ID/Cash/Photos and the cops determined who they were, how would you want the police to treat the thieves?

My observation is that the cops don't really care about property crimes at all.

[Scout26]

Your mistake is that you're assuming a method to be used that gives you a still-functional HD at the end of it.  If police are at the door I don't care about saving some pissant $60 hardware device that might put me away for X years.  My illegal porn/drug notes/fake/stolen ID's/stolen classified documents/conspiracy theories/etc...  are going away.

If I'm set up, you have at most 30 seconds before not even the NSA can recover it.
Options:
1.  Permanent magnet degausser - take loose HD, feed through, gone.  Takes ~15 seconds once I start cranking.
2.  HD is in a heavy ceramic urn(using an extension cable) with thermite piled over it and an ignition device wired to a button(and/or timer).  Good luck recovering it while the thermite is still going...
3.  HD is wrapped in coils hooked up to a switch on household ac power.
4.  HD has a key secured truecrypt partition.  Destroy ~2k of information, the rest of the HD is useless.  Simply writing over the key would be enough.  One option is to store the key in a RAM device where if power is cut it goes by-by.  Hitting the button/yanking the cord powers down the system and renders all unaccessable.  There are usb-key devices that will erase themselves if you push a button. 

Yes, because folks stealing identities has any one of those methhods on standby and ready to go when the cops announce their intent to enter. 
Along with a duty roster of who has "MJ plants into the commercial grade disposal" job. 

Hostages, Armed perp (who has fired shots) and the like.  Sure, break out the toys and go a tacticool on them.  However, in thee vast majority of those cases, the preferred method is to surround and wait.   They have to go to sleep some time. 

Otherwise still normal warrant service.  Surround, and knock announcing presence.  Give a reasonable amount of time for them to answer for the time of day, then go in.   It's not that hard and doesn't require "Dynamic Entry", but when all you have is a hammer, then every problem is a nail.