Apple computer and spyware

[Fly320s]

Educate me, please.

Why is it that Apple computers are immune to virus attacks and spyware?

[Marnoot]

They're not immune. A large portion of it is that Apple's worldwide market share is just over 2% of computers. Spammers/virus-writers/spyware pushers want the greatest return on investment possible. The best way to do that is to target the user-level OS with the largest market share (Windows).

There are elements which make other OS's more secure than Windows in certain areas, but I think market share is the most significant reason for the low count of bad-things written for Macs. The OS with the most users (and therefore, the highest number of naive and non-security conscious users) is the one to target. I haven't had a virus or any spyware on my Windows box in over 8 years. It's up to the user to lock things down. Mac OS tends to lock more things down for the user than Windows, which helps out its security.

[Iain]

I believe there are one or two things about the way that the Apple OS works that it is claimed make it more secure. I'm only saying that based on comparisions I've seen drawn between the linux OS I use, and have a tiny bit of experience with, and the Apple way of doing things.

When first messing with linux I asked a similar question and was given the answer that Marnoot gave.

[tulsamal]

I haven't had a virus or any spyware on my Windows box in over 8 years. It's up to the user to lock things down. Mac OS tends to lock more things down for the user than Windows, which helps out its security.

I've been using OS X since it was introduced and I've NEVER had a virus or spyware. (We are talking several years now.) And things aren't "locked down" on my machine since it doesn't have any anti-virus software on it. I made my living for years and years working for corporations as an IT hardware/network technician. The amount of time and money that is spent trying to keep Windows boxes from getting infected or then trying to clean them up after that fails is simply amazing. Talk about a loss of productivity.

And your "2%" number is quite a ways off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh#Market_share_and_demographics

As of July, 2006, research firms IDC and Gartner reported that Apple's market share had increased to between 4.6% and 4.8%. The actual installed base of Macintosh computers is extremely hard to determine, with numbers ranging from a conservative 3% to an optimistic 16%.

4.6 to 4.8% would mean you were off by more than 100%.

And why does "market share" matter? Apple continues to make many, many millions of dollars each and every quarter. My personal computer use is web surfing first. Any Mac running OS X can do that just as well (if not better) than any Windows box. Multiple browsers are available for whatever your taste is. Number two would be email. I just use the factory installed Mail program although many others are out there. Works at least as well as anything I've used in Windows. Third would be for music. I use iTunes and an iPod. The Mac version of iTunes includes some features that are missing on the Windows version. If music is number one for you, the Mac is a better choice for sure. Number four for me would be photos and I use iPhoto for 90% of that and Adobe Elements for the remainder. Advertising and graphics professionals all over the US prefer to use the Mac so this is another area where it is actually better. I also have the newest version of MS Office installed but I rarely use it.

So why should it matter to me how many people want to use Windows? If the vocal majority is going to attract the majority of the teenagers who want to write nasty software to target people's computers, why would I want to be in that group? If 1 user in 20 is using a Mac, is that any different than how many handgun owners use H&K P7's? I happen to like my P7 and I don't really care if it never sold as many copies as various Glocks.

The truth is that yes, the Windows boxes get targeted the most because they are the largest installed base. But wouldn't that mean that 5% of the stuff would go after OS X? The fact that there is still not even one OS X virus "in the wild" would suggest that it isn't nearly as easy to attack an OS with a UNIX kernel. Windows has many thousands and we have Zero. Can it all be because nobody is paying attention? Actually teenagers love a challenge. Apple has bragged about this for years. Why haven't they "showed Apple" by hammering them with attacks? For that matter, why don't all the LINUX boxes out there get smothered in viruses and spyware? Hmmm, could it just be that Windows is so full of security holes that even teenagers can figure out how to attack it?

"Don't forget to download the newest virus definitions!"  I would but I don't have any anti-virus software installed.

"Don't forget to have a firewall in place!" Nope, don't have one.

"NBC News is reporting tonight that a major new virus is shutting down computers all across the world." Why don't they mention that fact that no Mac users are affected?

MS has done their best to copy Apple's innovations over the years. But they are always years behind and it never seems like their copies are quite "the same." "Elegant" is rarely used to describe MS software. We are on 10.4.8 now. (So that's 8 major updates to Tiger.) When (and if) Vista is actually introduced, it will be inferior in features to what you can get right now with Tiger. And Leopard will be introduced on time in spring 2007 and will raise the bar still higher.

Finally, there are my parents as "real world" examples. They are living in the same house in Enon, Ohio. Connected to the same high speed connection. My Dad has a Windows XP Pro box that he loved when he got it. My mom is running OS X on a now 3-4 year old iMac. My Dad is ALWAYS having problems with viruses and spyware. He buys and installs the programs but he doesn't keep them perfectly well maintained and up to date. Things will get worse and worse until the computer is just about at a standstill. Then he gets out all the factory discs and does a wipe and reload. Then reloads his apps. Then reloads all his data. And he's finally happy after all those hours of tedious work. For a week. Heck, maybe even a month. But then he will call me and want help because of all the stuff "attacking his system." Meanwhile my Mom has no anti-virus software installed. She never has to buy it or install it or update it. She has never had a virus. She has never had any spyware. Her system has had lots of software updates on it over the years but has NEVER been reloaded. Is it any REAL surprise that my Dad finally told me last year that "the next computer I buy is going to be a Mac?"

What is your time worth? How much aggravation are you willing to deal with just so you can be like everybody else?

Gregg

[Ben]

Google will get you plenty of hits for both Mac and Linux viruses, as well as actual (harmless) "proof of concept" viruses for the Mac. Obviously not nearly as many as for Microsoft as it's a bigger target, and Unix is less prone (but certainly not immune) to viruses.

MS has done their best to copy Apple's innovations over the years.

Apple took from Xerox for their GUI and Creative Labs for the Ipod. Both Microsoft and Apple are happy to copy the innovations of others.

People should just use whatever they're happy with.

[Standing Wolf]

Macintosh OS X is nearly as ugly as Windows.

I'm stuck with Windows at work. In addition to being a grotesque eyesore, it's sorely lacking in keyboard commands, and nothing is very customizable.

I've just bought a new Macintosh, my eighth or ninth or tenth since 1985. I wasn't planning to buy another computer for at least another year, but I lost my main hard drive to a power failure, (I didn't know "uninterruptible" power supplies don't last forever,) and had to call Apple for specifications. It turns out Apple is switching to Intel processors, which will no longer run OS 9.

OS 9 isn't as steady or æsthetically straightforward as OS 8, but OS 8 doesn't run on G3, G4, or G5 machines.

Meanwhile, the Apple external modem that was shipped with my new computer didn't work. I went through hell trying to persuade the purported "technical support" people at Apple to send me a replacement. I finally just bought a second modem. It didn't work, either. I went through hell all over again, and ended up talking with some self-inflicted genius in India. Apple is sending me a third modem.

Nope, I've never had a virus on a Macintosh; then again, I'm still using the old computer because Apple can't even make a simple $49.95 modem. Macintosh used to be the best hardware with the best software. I literally went a year at a time between crashes. Everything was entirely compatible with everything else. Installation was child's play. Everything was customizable. Everything worked together.

Nothing was broken, so Apple "fixed" it.

[Antibubba]

I'm still running 10.2.8.  Most of the time it's more than adequate, though more and more of the software I see requires at least 10.3.

[InfidelSerf]

I would have to say the primary reason is that OSX is based on the UNIX kernel.  
In laymans terms the reason the UNIX kernel is so secure, is that it doesn't give the user unlimited access under the hood.  So hackers can't use the user's access to the system internals in order to attack it.
I'm not saying UNIX systems and the derivatives aren't hackable.  Just WAY over the head of your average teenage tinker/hacker.

Now FWIW  I haven't had a viral file on my system in 5+years (knocks on HDD) I don't run intrusive scanning software etc.
I venture into the seedy (and no I don't mean pornographic) parts of the net and come out untouched.
Why?  
When on the other hand my parents have nonstop problems?
I believe it's as simple as the willingness to READ and LEARN.

I worked as an IT tech and consultant for years.  I didn't go to college, I didn't even take a computer class when I was in HS.
I simply read.  When I did have problems both hardware and software related.
I read and solved them.  (This was back in the day when most hardware didn't like other hardware and you had to be very picky in your choice of combinations)

I'd say 90% or more of the computer related problems people have are from the flipside of a mirror.

Most people are very impatient with computers, and just expect them to do their bidding via telepathic messages.
JMHO

[ilbob]

There are several reasons the Mac OS is less vulnerable to viruses, spy ware and similar problems.

The biggest reason is that the Mac OS is a tiny part of the overall PC market. The creators of these things want to get the biggest bang for the buck when they create them, so they stick to Windows.

A secondary reason is that the Mac OS is less susceptible to such problems. It is a more robust OS with "better" security features. The biggest thing is more separation between the OS and the application programs.

Another secondary reason may be that mac users are more technically savvy, and thus less likely to do stupid things that get them into trouble.

[Marnoot]

And your "2%" number is quite a ways off.

I was simply quoting what I found at this mac fanboy site(worldwide share).

And why does "market share" matter?

I believe I addressed why it matters in my first post. I'm not saying Mac is "less-good" because of it's market share. I'm saying it's a less desireable target to virus-writers and spyware pushers because of it's market share. Do you want to spend hours writing some spyware that can infect 4% of the computers, or do you want to put your time into writing one that will infect a much larger userbase?

Let me emphasize: I'M NOT BASHING MACs. I simply put forth the smaller userbase as one of many reasons Macs have significantly fewer viruses and spyware. The weak security of Window's kernel and other OS features weigh heavily, no doubt. My choice of PC over Mac really has nothing to do with OS anyway. I like to decide precisely what hardware makes up my computer. That's not something you have any real control over when you buy a Mac.

[Fly320s]

Ah, that makes sense.

I saw a TV commercial recently that was promoting Apple's resistance to spyware and viruses.  The way the commercial was worded made it sound like Apple computers are immune.

[lee n. field]

or ninth or tenth since 1985. I wasn't planning to buy another computer for at least another year, but I lost my main hard drive to a power failure, (I didn't know "uninterruptible" power supplies don't last forever,) and had to call Apple for specifications. It turns out Apple is switching to Intel processors, which will no longer run OS 9.

If by "hard drive" you mean the actual hard disk mechanism, those are replacable.  How easily would depend on exactly which Mac, and ranges from trivial (tower units) to "somewhat challenging" (the various iMacs) to a hideous multi hour surgery (certain laptops).  You'd, of course, have to reinstall the OS, etc.

If you're using "hard disk" in the sloppy way that many end user  people do, to refer to the entire computer itself, yeah, you're probably screwed, though a simple power failure shouldn't have done anything.  And UPSen don't last forever.  Batteries go crappy after a very few years.

I support a school full of Macs.  No AV at all for the Macs (not my call), no limits (other than firewall content filtering) on what they can do.  The closest I've seen to malware running on any of the Macs is Limewire.

[Gewehr98]

Fly320, I giggle when I see those Mac ads on TV, too.  Like they're the be-all, end-all virus and crash-resistant machines.  

I've been an IT guy since the late 1980's, working with various flavors of DOS, CP/M, OS/2, GEOS, Windows, Linux, Unix, and the various Mac OS flavors since the Apple II series.  

While I would prefer open-source Linux to be so, there's a reason Windows is the dominant OS in the general scheme of things - "Everyman".  There's also a reason Unix is dominant in the mainframe/server/databank world.  Apple machines fill their own niche, particularly in the pre-offset press publishing and graphics world (Quark), engineering schools (University of the Pacific), pharmacy schools (University of Wisconsin),  and schools in general by way of healthy hardware and software discount incentives.  Microsoft has educational discounts, too, but they don't build the PCs that run the code.

My sister has a UW Pharmacy School discount iMac, one of the last Motorola processor versions, and is always calling  me regarding problems with her email software and burning CD-ROM backups.  Why she's using Eudora for email, I don't know.  She already has the Microsoft Office for Mac suite installed, and could just as easily use Outlook.

Regardless, I find the whole thing academic.  There are those who drink the Apple Kool-Aid, and those who drink the  PC Kool-Aid.  The distinction blurs even more now that Apple has switched (finally!) to the same Intel processors that run PC machines, producing an Apple that runs either OS-X or Windows.  So it's a choice, really, of which OS you're most comfortable with.  Myself, I like Linux, and the Gewehr98 home network is gradually switching to that, otherwise it's XP Pro or Server 2003.  As for the hardware side, I like the fact that I can control what's inside my PC, with respect to RAID, video card, processor, memory, power supply, etc.  I can gather the pieces and assemble a machine that fits my needs.  I suppose one could custom-order a Mac and keep their fingers crossed, especially when one wants to do internal upgrades...

[mtnbkr]

Stability, performance, reliability, resistance to viruses/malware all boils down to how you build the computer and how you set it up.

Just over 3 years ago, I built a PC to run Windows 2000.  I used quality hardware, but not cutting edge stuff, just good solid devices.  I installed Windows and turned off all unnecessary services.  I installed good AV (Norton is my choice), a software firewall (Zonealarm), and spyware removal software (Ad-Aware).  I set Norton to run automatically and download new definitions as needed.  I manually run Ad-aware about once a month or so.  I don't download every piece of comuting eye candy available online, instead sticking to known good applications.  I use Office 2, Outlook 2, IE 6.x, Firefox, and some other commercial software.  I run defrag every couple months whenever I think about it.

Our usage tends to be mostly web surfing, email, word processing, etc.  We edit a bit of video and burn it to DVD from time to time, mainly stuff pulled from MiniDV tape.  We scan our photographs, do some minor editing, and burn them to CDRom.  In otherwords, we don't tax the system too hard, but it doesn't sit idle either.  We rarely reboot it and it's not uncommon for the uptime to be measured in months.

The only time that computer has crashed was when the HDD died about 2 years ago.  I replaced the drive and rebuilt the system using the Ghost image I created just after I set it up the first time.  I've never had a virus and what little spyware is discovered tends to be minor stuff that I wouldn't consider threatening.  

The computer this system replaced was built and managed much the same way with the same results.  I replaced it because it didn't have the power to edit video, otherwise, we might still be using it.

I like Linux as well, but it's still a bit rough around the edges as a desktop system IMO (though I did use it as my desktop from 1998-2001).  I do run it on my home server.  That box runs my web site, file/print services (SAMBA), and gives me a place to keep my Unix skills fresh.  I see no reason to run Linux on a desktop because it wouldn't offer any advantage to me.

Chris

[roo_ster]

I would have to say the primary reason is that OSX is based on the UNIX kernel.  
In laymans terms the reason the UNIX kernel is so secure, is that it doesn't give the user unlimited access under the hood.  So hackers can't use the user's access to the system internals in order to attack it.
I'm not saying UNIX systems and the derivatives aren't hackable.  Just WAY over the head of your average teenage tinker/hacker.

^^ That pretty much covers it.

Same goes for linux boxes.

[Standing Wolf]

If by "hard drive" you mean the actual hard disk mechanism, those are replacable.  How easily would depend on exactly which Mac, and ranges from trivial (tower units) to "somewhat challenging" (the various iMacs) to a hideous multi hour surgery (certain laptops).  You'd, of course, have to reinstall the OS, etc.

If you're using "hard disk" in the sloppy way that many end user  people do, to refer to the entire computer itself, yeah, you're probably screwed, though a simple power failure shouldn't have done anything.  And UPSen don't last forever.  Batteries go crappy after a very few years.

Nope. Hard drive means hard drive.

I received my third external modem from Apple today, and it doesn't work, either.

[Stetson]

Why does Microsoft hold the market share for PC(home) computing?  Marketing, marketing, marketing and dealing with the lowest common denominator in the PC world.  Instead of pigeon-holing themselves to music/graphis/printing applications and being the very best at it.  MS went the route of not being the best at one thing but being okay at a BUNCH of things most users really want - Games, Email, intarweb and such.

Why do people get bogged down after being on the 'net all the time on a WinOS box?  Because, by and large, PC users are clueless.  Sure, there are people here and out there ---> in life, that know whats going on, but we don't run the 'net nor do we setup everyone's PCs.  

Secretaries that want the cute little mouse pointers and the 'moving' desktops are the ones that keep me working.  Home users that surf pr0n or other dark sides of the net, also keep me busy on weekends.  The popup '*Click here for your prize!!' give me nightterrors.  Especially when my wife used to click on them.  She doesn't anymore, we had a talk and I showed her what happens....same with my mom.  But that is 2 out of millions.

Apple computers get hit with virii and spyware but you don't hear much about it over the volume of noise coming from clueless WinOS users.  Apple computers have some very serious limitations within the corp world unless you are running a pure AppleTalk network.  Remote support is the main one.  It just isnt reliable like a WinOS-->WinOS connection, if you can make a connection at all.

I can go on and on but I think this is my longest post here and I'll stop now.

[Standing Wolf]

Turns outafter four more wasted hours: one and a half at the computer, two and a half on the telephonethere was nothing wrong with the modems, after all: Apple sold me a computer with a version of the operating system without modem drivers. The only way to find that out was to erase the hard drive and re-install the operating system.

It took over a dozen "technical support" individuals to figure it out.

No more !@#$%^&! from Apple for me.

[mtnbkr]

Well SW, where does that leave you?  You don't like Microsoft products and now you don't like Apple.  There's always Linux, but customer support for Linux is weaker than with Apple or Microsoft.  

That said, neither Linux or Windows would've required me to reformat and reinstall just to load a modem driver...

Chris

[Standing Wolf]

Well SW, where does that leave you?

It leaves me waiting for Apple to get around to sending me a more modern version of the operating system.

At my age, even green bananas are a risky investment, so maybe I won't have to go through the new computer horror again. The computer I just bought is the last Macintosh that runs OS 9, which I need to run Photoshop 5.5. That's the last version that runs my hundreds upon hundreds of dollars' worth of third party filters, the vast majority of which have not been so-called "updated" to work with the current operating system.

Hardware and software companies believe I should gladly radically alter the way I work just to keep their incompetent engineers in pay checks. I think they're going to have to get along without my dollars.