Author Topic: Traction Control  (Read 9805 times)

41magsnub

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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2009, 10:19:59 AM »
I'm in the don't mind ABS boat as well.  I know how to pump the brakes, recover from a skid, and all that winter driving jazz, hell..  I learned to drive in winters in a 4wd (the 4wd did not work) 74 Ford 3/4 ton with extra crappy tires and a bent frame in some of the worst winters MT had in a lot of years.  Everything after that seems timid.

My problem with traction control, as it is implemented in my car. is it tries to help me when I don't need/want help and the help is actually endangering me when I forget to turn it off.  When it is dry I don't bother since nothing I do driving in town would trigger it.

French G.

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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2009, 10:29:53 AM »
I understand the mechanics of ABS and use them as intended. My wife, despite much explanation still tries to pump the brake.  ;/  Just lock them down and steer woman! I still regard ABS as a crutch, one more step in removing people from the underlying physics of their car. And that much more shock when the system fails. People should know how to drive without ABS, or for that matter without power brakes or any brakes.
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zahc

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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2009, 10:42:52 AM »
Quote
It does this faster than a human can and this shaves a few feet off of stopping distance.
Unless you happen to be on dry pavement, then it will add a few feet of stopping distance.

Quote
Or stability control, where it can individually brake one wheel to correct an excessive yaw rate that would result in a skid.

What if I want to put my vehicle into a skid? How can the car read my mind and decide what I want to do?
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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2009, 11:00:35 AM »
Anyone know how to turn off TC on GM/Chevy cars, other than driving in low gear...?
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brimic

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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2009, 11:50:06 AM »
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Anyone know how to turn off TC on GM/Chevy cars, other than driving in low gear...?

My older Grand prix at least has a button on the dash to shut it off....
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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2009, 12:27:39 PM »
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Unless you happen to be on dry pavement, then it will add a few feet of stopping distance.

Say what?  How much engagement does ABS throw in when traction is fine and the wheel spin sensors don't flag it to modulate? ???
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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2009, 12:50:42 PM »
Say what?  How much engagement does ABS throw in when traction is fine and the wheel spin sensors don't flag it to modulate? ???

I think this would be over perfectly doing threshold braking vs. ABS.

90% of drivers will see improvement with ABS, but that last 10% won't.
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zahc

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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2009, 12:51:20 PM »
It's my understanding that ABS increasing stopping distances on dry pavement, even with the mash-it-to-the-floor technique.
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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2009, 01:47:07 PM »
Yep, that is also my recollection from reading way to many Car & Driver / Motor Trend / etc auto mags.
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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2009, 01:50:58 PM »
I seem to recall the idea behind ABS isn't necessarily allowing the car to stop faster - it actually doesn't.  It's more so that you can retain control of the car in a panic stop; IE: veer out of the way.  In a 4 wheel slide with all 4 locked up, steering input won't do much to change the direction of the car.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system

Tallpine

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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2009, 03:39:27 PM »
My older Grand prix at least has a button on the dash to shut it off....

No button ... manual says to put AT in low gear.  =|

There might be a way to turn it off through the computer settings ...
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2009, 06:39:07 PM »
Slight hijack here, but related in that it also involves the car's ECU (or PCM, as they are now called). How many of you are aware that, in addition to giving you traction control (whether or not you want it), a lot of (most? all?) new cars also have a "black box" function built into the computer. If you are involved in an accident, or arrested for speeding, they can download your car's computer memory and reconstruct how the car was driven recently.

I know BMW has had this capability for several years. My brother, who is now retired, used to be a service manager at a BMW dealership. It had to be at least five years ago that he told me the sorry tale of a young yuppie type whose new BMW was brought in on a hook. The guy told them the engine just "quit," and he wanted it repaired under warranty. The shop pulled the computer, scanned it, and found that the guy must have been racing because he had SERIOUSLY exceeded the red line before the engine exploded. No warranty.

In that case, of course, the guy didn't deserve to have his engine replaced for free and I have no sympathy. At the same time, I don't think I care to drive a car ("vehicle") that I know is going to rat me out if I should happen to engage in a brief moment of extra legal velocity enhancement. Just one more reason to keep my old cars running. As long as the body doesn't disappear completely, new (rebuilt) engines are a lot cheaper than new cars, and don't increase my taxes. And they won't rat me out.
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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2009, 06:42:13 PM »
Quote
Slight hijack here, but related in that it also involves the car's ECU (or PCM, as they are now called). How many of you are aware that, in addition to giving you traction control (whether or not you want it), a lot of (most? all?) new cars also have a "black box" function built into the computer. If you are involved in an accident, or arrested for speeding, they can download your car's computer memory and reconstruct how the car was driven recently.

I'm very well aware. OnStar is something else to be wary of, too, as I'm sure you know.

Anybody know when GM started adding a "blackbox" feature to there vehicles? I'd be very interested to know whether or not my '99 Silverado has such. I know OnStar started in '01, IIRC.

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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2009, 07:11:09 PM »
Several people have mentioned this, and I just want to add to the fodder...  ABS, Traction Control, etc. do help about 90% of the drivers out there, especially when used correctly.  But for those of us that KNOW how to drive....  My Dad is one of those examples.  He used to build race cars as a young man, including breaking in the engines.  Let me tell you.  That man can DRIVE.  Unless it's in a race car that's on the bleeding edge of performance, where it'll add that extra 0.1% margin of stability, he hates the idea of traction control.  Same with ABS.  One of the new ideas he's seen on "high performance" cars is "Launch Control".  It's designed to avoid breaking the tires loose on heavy acceleration from a stop.  He looks at something like that and says, "that's why the gas pedal is analog, not an on/off switch."  :)

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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2009, 07:54:14 PM »
I've got an Eaton Tru-Trac in the rear of my F150 and l.o.v.e. it. 
Mashing the pedal on a snowy road and having the rear end fishtail while tossing dual roostertails is the only thing I like about winter.

The rover has open diffs, with a locking center differential (transfer case).  This is a manual locker, and splits the torque between the front and rear.  Things get spooled up on the pavement, so it gets engaged only in sand or snow or off road.
If I ever pry my wife's butt out of the driver's seat, I'll be installing a Detroit Locker in the rear (with the requisite driving flange/axle upgrade).

Admittedly, these mechanical lockers are not exactly what y'all are discussing, but anything that evens out torque when I have a wheel spinning is good in my book (with a few exceptions). 

I do like rear ABS on a pickup with rear drum brakes.  The added predictability is nice.  I've permanently disabled ABS systems on personal vehicles, and have never looked back.  It's nothing I'd recommend.
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brimic

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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2009, 08:46:12 PM »
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One of the new ideas he's seen on "high performance" cars is "Launch Control".  It's designed to avoid breaking the tires loose on heavy acceleration from a stop.  He looks at something like that and says, "that's why the gas pedal is analog, not an on/off switch." 

As a friend of mine who builds and races drag cars told me, tire spin isn't that big of a deal so long as the car doesn't move across the starting line before the green light. 

Not breaking the tires loose under hard accelleration definately saves tires, but at what cost? If the control system adds $10,000 to the cost of the car, are you ever going to make that up in tires saved?

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French G.

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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2009, 08:56:41 PM »
Most of my hostility to trac control coms from real honest to god traction control as found in race cars. The cubic dollars aspect of traction control is killing short track racing. Ought to be a clue if F1 mulls banning traction control because it is too expensive. The prime suspects in the big leagues of Friday night racing are anyone running an electronic ignition. Pretty rudimentary, but the box recognizes an out of parameter RPM increase, reads that as wheel spin then retards the spark timing to kill power, or even kills the spark to stutter the motor. The tech only gets more advanced from there, enabling people who don't know how to run a throttle to still be race car drivers.
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Harold Tuttle

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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2009, 09:13:27 PM »


LA MARQUE, Texas — The owner of one of the world’s fastest production automobiles accidentally drove his fine-tuned, French-built car into a saltwater lagoon Wednesday.

The man, who police said was from Lufkin, was uninjured after escaping the partially submerged Bugatti Veyron as it came to rest in about 2 feet of saltwater.

The two-seater, with 16 cylinders and four turbo chargers, can reach speeds of more than 250 mph. New models sell for about $2 million.

The man, who refused to give his name, was looking at real estate in Galveston.

About 3 p.m. a low-flying pelican distracted him as he traveled north on Interstate 45 just south of the hurricane levee near Omega Bay.

The man jerked the wheel, dropped his cell phone, and the car’s front tire left the frontage road and entered a muddy patch, which foiled his attempt to maneuver away from the lagoon.

The Veyron’s powerful engine gurgled like an outboard motor for about 15 minutes before it died.

Police and firefighters blocked the frontage road until MCH Towing employee Gilbert Harrison carefully wenched the car away from riprap and onto the soft, muddy bank.

It’s the rarest car in the world, not something you can just replace, the man said.

An Associated Press story in October mentioned a 2006 model Veyron for sale in Jonesboro, Ark., with an asking price of $1.25 million.

One of the prospective buyers was from Texas.

That Bugatti Veyron was one of only 200 made and one of only about 15 in the United States, the AP reported.
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brimic

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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2009, 09:20:57 PM »
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The prime suspects in the big leagues of Friday night racing are anyone running an electronic ignition. Pretty rudimentary, but the box recognizes an out of parameter RPM increase, reads that as wheel spin then retards the spark timing to kill power, or even kills the spark to stutter the motor.

Huh. Having learned a bit about electronic ignition systems after installing them on one of my vehicles and seeing the effect of hitting the rev limit, I  never thought of that aspect of setting a rev limit on an electronic ignition..Neat.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2009, 10:15:30 PM »
Had one of those on the ignition box of my Pro-Street S-10 dragster.  I could set the ignition cut-out to prevent the engine and blower from departing each other when I got a bit rambunctious at the Christmas Tree.   =D
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KD5NRH

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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2009, 01:51:03 AM »
But most drivers on the road are not very skilled, or even if skilled & experienced, not always paying attention.

Ban the automatic transmission and you'll fix a huge percentage of those.  They'll all be stuck restarting the car every 3 feet until they get out and walk like they should have done in the first place.


French G.

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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2009, 07:29:20 AM »
Ban the automatic transmission and you'll fix a huge percentage of those.  They'll all be stuck restarting the car every 3 feet until they get out and walk like they should have done in the first place.



Yes! For the children. *Hurries off to start clutch repair business...
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yesitsloaded

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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2009, 10:45:05 AM »
I've had mine hit the brakes when I hit the gas. It seems it doesn't want to launch from a stop with ABS on. Of course I didn't realize that it was hitting the brakes with no pedal input until I looked at my pads =|.
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KD5NRH

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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2009, 11:35:26 PM »
Yes! For the children. *Hurries off to start clutch repair business...

Clutch: $150 w/labor.  AT rebuild: $3,500.  I'd rather change a clutch every few years.  I don't even mind doing it every 6-12 mo of driving hard, compared to what can happen with an automatic pushed beyond its limits.


French G.

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Re: Traction Control
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2009, 12:10:25 AM »
Oh I know, but a clutch in good hands can last a looong time. Never changed one of mine actually. Not a slushbox fan by any means, but I did get my AT rebuilt for $600, my labor was free since I had/have no job. Cheap entertainment and an excuse to buy a tranny jack. What could possibly go wrong?  ;/
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