What has happened to my country? (Shiavo related)

[MaterDei]

I have no doubt that many of you will flame me for this but I don't care; I need to say it.  

I suspect that most, if not all, of you have made up your minds regarding the fate of Terri Shiavo and I don't pretend that I will change them.  I think, however, that it is very important that you understand how important of an issue this is to many of your fellow countrymen.  I know a great many who feel as I do but I can only speak for myself.  Quite frankly, I have been very disturbed with the flippant nature that many have taken in regards to the suffering that Terry recently underwent.  Not just people on APS, but within all of America.  At least one of you apparently thinks that 'Terri's Blog' is funny.

Sunday, March 27, 2005
mmmmmnegh
nggnugh

posted by terri at 12:25 PM 425 comments  
Friday, March 25, 2005
nnnnguh
AHHHHHHH WAAAAAAAA

posted by terri at 5:24 PM 208 comments  
nnnnngnhgngnh
*blink*

posted by terri at 3:40 PM 91 comments  
Sunday, February 20, 2005
nnnuh
uuuuuugh

posted by terri at 3:44 PM 32 comments  
Tuesday, January 04, 2005
unnnnghgn

posted by terri at 3:45 PM 27 comments  
Thursday, November 18, 2004
mmmmmmnguhg
nnnnnnnnegh

posted by terri at 3:46 PM 34 comments  
Saturday, October 30, 2004
uuungh
nnuguhgn

posted by terri at 3:51 PM 68 comments  
Wednesday, October 06, 2004
nengggngguh
*twitch*

posted by terri at 3:53 PM 79 comments


I find it offensive and insensitive.  Even if you were to argue that Terri can't read, those that love and support her can.

Today, with the killing of Terri Shiavo, our country has lost something great.  It is not a tangible loss but it is great loss.  It is hard to describe exactly what we lost, but the best way that I can describe it is to say that America has lost a big chunk of its soul.  I don't say these things lightly.  I spent 11 years in the Army and have suffered and bled for my country.  I love my country and was always a proud American.

When I get home tonight I am going to gather together all of my American flags and I am going to burn them.  I will do it privately, solemnly, with all due respect and undoubtly with tears in my eyes.  It will be very difficult to do.  I used to be a proud American, today I am ashamed of America, what it stands for, and what it has allowed to happen.

May God have mercy of America.

Michael

[spacemanspiff]

fer crying out loud!

okay! 20 years ago, when someone in terri's condition died, a priest/preacher/reverend/father/whatever would tell the family that 'god took your loved one', and it comforted them.

but NOW that we can keep the shell alive while the innards can't perform, somehow its murder to take them off life support??

what does the family of the person who died 20 years ago now think? that god only takes people if medical science cant save them?

you know what i hope this does for people across the country? i hope everyone goes out and has a living will created for themselves. and if something should happen to me before i get this done and i wind up on life support, let this serve as evidence of my wishes:


pull my freaking plug!

[RevDisk]

I find it offensive and insensitive.  Even if you were to argue that Terri can't read, those that love and support her can.

Today, with the killing of Terri Shiavo, our country has lost something great.  It is not a tangible loss but it is great loss.  It is hard to describe exactly what we lost, but the best way that I can describe it is to say that America has lost a big chunk of its soul.  I don't say these things lightly.  I spent 11 years in the Army and have suffered and bled for my country.  I love my country and was always a proud American.

When I get home tonight I am going to gather together all of my American flags and I am going to burn them.  I will do it privately, solemnly, with all due respect and undoubtly with tears in my eyes.  It will be very difficult to do.  I used to be a proud American, today I am ashamed of America, what it stands for, and what it has allowed to happen.

May God have mercy of America.

You have the right to feel however you wish about Terri's death.  I agree that the sick jokes are not appropriate.   People have really taken issue with this case.   I intentially avoided the coverage.  I am not her husband nor her family.  It should have stayed between them and the courts.   If I was ever in the situation, I'd expect my friends or family to end my life as quickly and painlessly as possible.  Damn the consequences.  Death by starvation isn't a happy way to end one's life.  

America has done many good things, and many bad things.  I'm more sick of the politicians who milked this private suffering for every last drop and the news people that hung on it for ratings.

[bountyhunter]

I agree it is in bad taste to make jokes about this.  I would point out her parents invited such an attack when they announced the ludicrous sttment that she (Terri) had spoken to them and asked for help.  Those people have taken denial from a hobby and elevated it to an art form.

I saw the X-rays of what is left of her brain.  The parts that cause speech are not there any more.

It is truly sad that this whole thing became a circus, but most of the blame falls on the right wing nut jobs who siezed upon it as a right to life issue and Terri's parents who hopped on their bandwagon.

I persoanlly think Terri was in heaven long ago, so I don't think she suffered.  I think most of the people involved down here made total fools of themselves, with Bush and the GOP leading that pack.

[bountyhunter]

"It is hard to describe exactly what we lost, but the best way that I can describe it is to say that America has lost a big chunk of its soul."

I think that happened when "good" Americans started claiming only those who agreed with the government had a right to be heard and those who didn't have their "minds right"  should be retaliated against for speaking out.

The only disgrace for my country in the Sciavo case is how a bunch of politicains tried to use it to add lumber to the "right to life" plank of the republican platform to be used in the next years elections.

[Jason]

I think thats pretty funny.  Tasteless, true.  Of course, I find it more of a poke at the media circus surrounding the whole affair.  Lets face it, the chick was a vegetable with less cognitive ability than a 1hour old newborn.  What kind of life is that?

[Sean Smith]

I've got to agree with bountyhunter on this one.  The hysterics over the courts "murdering" Terri are just idiotic.  

Get this through your heads, folks:

The courts did not rule that she should die because she had brain damage.  They weren't making some kind of Nazi-esque euthanasia precedent.  They ruled that SHE SAID she would want to be unplugged if she was in a situation like this, therefore she should be unplugged IN ACCORDANCE WITH *HER* STATED WISHES.  Characterizing the case as anything else is just dishonest.   Try, you know, reading something not written by a crazy advocacy group, and this is a very simple case.

And it was not just a case of the husband making this claim.  Her BEST FRIEND said the same thing, too.  Again, a common implication is that the husband made this up out of whole cloth.

The two doctors arguing for her ability to recover consisted of a guy who wasn't even a neurologist, oops, and another guy who at the time was a well-known crackpot.  All the other doctors who actually reviewed the evidence declared her condition totally hopeless.  It doesn't take a PhD to interpret a CAT scan with a big void where the upper brain functions belong, and you can't present chimp-tastic witnesses to the court, and then wonder why your side loses.  

[charby]

I agree with Sean Smith, courts did the right thing and upheld the wishes of Terri. We Americans did win today.

[Moondoggie]

Given her reported level of cognition, several medical doctors have stated on the air that her death would not be "painful"...she did not have the same ability to percieve discomfort, hunger/thirst, or her surroundings as you or I.  These doctors also stated that Terry's manner of death is fairly common in similar cases...the others just don't hit the front page because there isn't the family drama that we've seen played out in the media.  It also doesn't take 15 years to be resolved.

I understand that emotions run high on this topic, and the media sensationalism has heightened the emotionalism to a personal level for many folks.  There is absolutely nothing that any of us could have done to effect the outcome of this tragic situation....."due process" was exhausted to the nth degree, and then some.  Fighting among ourselves over something that none of us could change is pretty stupid.

The best that each of us can do is to make sure that we take personal responsibility and attend to the proper measures in our own jurisdictions to ensure that we're never the center of a similar controversy.  This has obviously been a devastating event for all involved, and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.  I sure wouldn't want to inflict it on my loved ones.

[Risasi]

Yes, tasteless. But then again this is a morally depraved society we live in, so I don't know why you are shocked MaterDei. It's not like it's 42 million babies destroyed or anything.  

I understand what you are saying Spiff, Revdisk, bountyhunter, Sean, Moondoggie and charby.
I too believe this has been blown out of proportion.  Personally I don't care for doctors, because they get out of their realm and start messing with stuff they don't understand. But I'll put that aside for now. I have a question for each of you though.

If she is a vegetable, if she is already braindead, if she is "in heaven", as one of you said; What's wrong with simply putting a .45 to her head a half a decade ago and calling it good ? Personally I would take this option over starving and dehydrating for the past ten days. Is this morally wrong somehow? In your eyes?

Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying this is what should have happened. Nor am I saying pulling her feed tube is equivalent to putting a slug into her head. I am merely asking where you draw the line?

[Michigander]

Actually, I am surprised that the gubmint did not take away more individual rights and/or state's rights with this case. They certainly could have.

I have many doubts and fears about our United States government, but they are not in any way whatsoever at "fault" here. Not the President, not the Congress and not the Courts. As far as I'm concerned, they did try to circumvent due process and tried to usurp Michael's rights, but they they didn't go far enough and failed. It was a feeble attempt in any case.

And neither is Florida's government at "fault."

The number one cause of death is life. Who's to "blame" for what happened? God? Michael? Terri herself? Her parents? The medical community for not finding a way to reverse her condition?

It is not a question of blame or fault. Thousands of people every year have their feeding tubes removed. Sometimes by their own documented choice, sometimes by the choice of their spouse, and sometimes by the collective choice of their family. Where was the gubmint in all those cases? Hopefully nowhere to be seen IMO.

[Moondoggie]

Risasi...

Here's my VERY PERSONAL opinion regarding you question about just killing someone in a similar situation....

My wife and I had to euthanize one of our dogs last week (Diabetes/blindness/kidney failure, I'm tearing-up just typing this)...the vet induced unconsciousness with an IV drug, then administered another to stop her heart.  It was quick, painless, and very much stress-free for her.  In other words, she got a lethel injection similar to the way most states execute folks nowadays.  I would support this method for a person if it were appropriately determined that it was in accordance with the desire of the patient and/or family.  Preferable to the Terry Schiavo situation, especially for the distraught family members.  Their prolonged grief and stress must be unbearable!

As an aside I can tell you that I had step 1 of the process administered to me a couple of years ago before a colonoscopy.  The nurse put a small IV in the back of my hand, administered the drug, and left the room.  I remember sitting there looking at the wall and wondering when this stuff was going to take effect for about 30 seconds or so.  Next thing I know I'm in recovery and the nurse is asking if I feel like I'm ready to get dressed.  I had absolutely zero awareness that I was even "going under".  This would be very much OK for me if it was "my time".

I understand that some people are concerned about euthanasia and the "slippery slope", etc, but I think it should be available if people decide that it's what they want.  I believe that our life is our own...it does not belong to the government or others.  Even from a Christian perspective (which I am not) I still think the individual should be allowed to make the decision for themselves...it's a personal matter between them and God.  I don't think the government should be able to require a person to suffer until death occurs "naturally" if it is contrary to the wishes of the individual.  I'm perfectly willing to hang on as a doddering old rest home denizen, but I don't want to spend my last 2 weeks begging for my next shot of Morphine like I watched my father-in-law do with inoperable cancer.  Talk about no "quality of life"!  Also absolutely no hope of recovery.  It sucked!

In all of this I'm assuming for the purpose of discussion that the medical situation is terminal, with no hope of recovery.

That's my $.02.

[Ron]

I think her husband should have allowed the various tests that were never performed on her be performed.

He did docter shop and I believe only one judge has ruled on the facts,  the rest just affirmed his decission(as in what he says stands because he handled the case properly) without taking a new look at the facts.

The family and several caretakers seemed to believe that there was some limited awerness of her surroundings.  If she was aware of her surroundings and was left to die from dehydration that would be a real tragedy.

There was no good outcome of this issue.  We through our courts have erred on the side of death versus on the side of life.

If she was truly brain dead and there was no person residing in her body it still seems brutal to use dehydration as the form of passing away.  Seems like there has to be a less gruesome way.

[seeker_two]

Today, with the killing of Terri Shiavo, our country has lost something great.  It is not a tangible loss but it is great loss.  It is hard to describe exactly what we lost, but the best way that I can describe it is to say that America has lost a big chunk of its soul.

I think a large part of America lost its soul a long time ago. This event just put a spotlight on that emptiness...

As for "Terri's Blog"...even morons have to attempt humor...just to keep their own feeding tubes in....





Today, America (or at least its judiciary) earned its "Great Satan" title.

God, have Mercy on Terri's soul & the Schindler family....

...and nothing but Your Wrath for her murderers.

[Phantom Warrior]

but NOW that we can keep the shell alive while the innards can't perform, somehow its murder to take them off life support??

The distinction, in my mind, is that she wasn't on "life support."  She didn't need help breathing or keeping her heart going.  All she needed was a feeding tube to help her ingest food.  Actively starving someone to death isn't the same thing is removing extraordinary life support.

Nor am I saying pulling her feed tube is equivalent to putting a slug into her head.

Considering the fact that she just starved to death, how would you argue it is different?

Later that day, the Vatican announced he had been fitted with a feeding tube in his nose to help boost his nutritional intake.

The use of the feeding tube illustrates a key point of Roman Catholic policy John Paul has proclaimed: It is morally necessary to give patients food and water, no matter their condition.

Right now the Pope has been fitted with has been fitted with a feeding tube too.  Yet no one is arguing we let him starve to death or try and get better without it.

[stevelyn]

At best she had the brain of a lizard without the mobility. I would imagine she's happier where she is now...........Wherever that may be. I know I would.

[Feanaro]

I seek some perspective. People have had their feeding tubes removed before. Is the Terry Schiavo case different from these others? Because of the arguement over her real wishes? The law taking the side of death without concrete evidence? Or has this just not been on the RADAR?

The distinction, in my mind, is that she wasn't on "life support."  She didn't need help breathing or keeping her heart going.  All she needed was a feeding tube to help her ingest food.

But what is the difference between having air pumped into and out of your lungs and having food pumped into your stomach? It could KILL her to feed her normally. She appearantly can't eat, even if someone else fed her by hand*.

Right now the Pope has been fitted with has been fitted with a feeding tube too.  Yet no one is arguing we let him starve to death or try and get better without it.

Perhaps because the Pope only has a feeding tube to HELP with nutrition. And the Pope is capable of thinking and acting on his own. And because no one close to the Pope, like his spouse(Although were I he, I wouldn't want anyone to know about any spouses.) or best friend, has heard him say he would want to die if he were a PV(At least no one has claimed such).

If she was truly brain dead and there was no person residing in her body it still seems brutal to use dehydration as the form of passing away.  Seems like there has to be a less gruesome way.

There are less gruesome ways. They tend to be illegal though.

*: http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder0300.pdf

[Guest]

I agree that starvation isnt the best way to die. I think they should have given her a massive dose of morphine and let her slip away.

Of course I also think that they should have done this about 15 years ago.

[Sean Smith]

Later that day, the Vatican announced he had been fitted with a feeding tube in his nose to help boost his nutritional intake.

The use of the feeding tube illustrates a key point of Roman Catholic policy John Paul has proclaimed: It is morally necessary to give patients food and water, no matter their condition.

Right now the Pope has been fitted with has been fitted with a feeding tube too.  Yet no one is arguing we let him starve to death or try and get better without it.

Silly comparison.

Schiavo was unplugged because a court determined that SHE had stated earlier, more than once, to more than once person, that she would not want to be sustained if she was reduced to a vegetative state.  And multiple other courts found that that decision was not in error.  Could they all be wrong?  Sure.  It would me nice to hear a factual argument in that regard, though, instead of false analogies, random ranting, regurgitated urban legends, and so forth.

[Chris]

You know, I've been watching all of this as a human being who has been through a similar situation with my father.  He had an aneurism in his brain, had surgery to repair it before it burst, which was successful, but he suffered a stroke during the surgery in a different location, which essentially disconnected his higher brain functions.  Basically, he went to sleep and never woke up.  Multiple doctors were consulted, and agreed it was irreversible.  He could breath on his own.  His heart beat on his own.  The only difference between he and Terry Schiavo was that Dad's eyes were closed. For better or worse, Dad developed an infection.  After a painful discussion I hope to never have again, we told the doctors to make sure he was comfortable, but to let him go.  A week later, he died.  So, in a way, I guess some could say we murdered my father by not giving him the antibiotics which would have cleared up the infection.  So be it.

At the same time, I have watched the legal proceedings, as a lawyer.  What has struck me is the great lengths Congress and the President went to to try to intervene, by essentially legislating jurisdiction over the matter to the federal courts.  Then, when the district, appelate, and Supreme Courts all determined thatthe law fell on the side of the husband, we now have Delay calling for impeachment of the judges.  This strikes me as incerdibly wrong.  A judge makes a decision on a difficult case, knowing it will be reviewed by other judges.  And, for making a decision, within the bounds of the law, you remove him from the bench?  No way.  I see this as a greater threat to America than the decision itself, right or wrong.  We do not want to live in a society where the legal decisions are made based upon the politically driven decisions of a legislator, worried about re-election.

[The Rabbi]

This was one sad case.  It should never have gotten to where it was.  Her parents meddled in this and that will be the worst thing to come out of it.
The original judge made a finding of fact.  That cannot be reviewed on any appeal in the absence of extraordinary information.  The courts did OK with this one.
As for the "blog"--people make up jokes as a way to deal with the pain of the situation.  How many Challenger jokes were there after it blew up?  It isnt callous, it is a way to deal.
Her case happens all the time.  Hospices deal with it just like this one did: the patient is dying and the best that can happen is for the patient to be as comfortable as possible.  Since she had no upper brain function this was pretty easy.
From some "inside" info, I know that her father is a bad alcoholic.  Her husband is a decent guy in a bad sit.  I am sorry this got so politicized.

[buy guns]

i dont really know the facts about this because its none of my business and its none of yours. so what if they let her die? the woman was a freakin vegetable. people die everyday, whether by the hand of someone else or just by accident. thats life.

[Hutch]

She is dead because her husband wanted her dead.  There was no written/legal documentation of her wish to die under these circumstances.  

Nor am I saying pulling her feed tube is equivalent to putting a slug into her head.

I'm saying it is.  If her husband wanted her out of his life, he should have divorced her.  Her parents wanted continued feeding and an aggressive therapy, which she, by all accounts, did not receive.  

Regarding the seperation of powers and the role of government, if the government is not able to help secure the right of Terri Schiavo to live, then of what use is the government at all?  That is the first, most basic obligation of ANY government, and they failed to discharge it.

[Ron]

Cas..., wrote,    "No way.  I see this as a greater threat to America than the decision itself, right or wrong.  We do not want to live in a society where the legal decisions are made based upon the politically driven decisions of a legislator, worried about re-election."

So you would rather have appointed for life demi-gods make life or death decisions without fear of reprisal?

I would buy the whole impartial judge bit if I didn't see these same judges legislating their agenda from the bench.

[Feanaro]

Her parents wanted continued feeding and an aggressive therapy, which she, by all accounts, did not receive.

The only information on the early days of Schiavo's treatment comes from the parent's site, http://www.terrisfight.org/index2.html, and http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html. Both show she recieved aggressive treatment, at least in the first years.