Author Topic: The job market is still sucky for new lawyers  (Read 7302 times)

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,667
Re: The job market is still sucky for new lawyers
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2016, 12:13:57 PM »
But hey, isn't this particular forum all about those 4% exceptional in general?
Exceptional in which direction?

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,807
Re: The job market is still sucky for new lawyers
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2016, 10:58:05 PM »
Managed hunts to cull the weak and/or scrofulous. Selling tag draws could probably seriously reduce the national debt.

Managed hunts for ticks?  Those must be some ticks.



With ticks like that, I'd hate to see the lawyers.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,409
Re: The job market is still sucky for new lawyers
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2016, 10:26:22 AM »
Talked to a friend from law school last night.  He's a lawyer out in Arizona.  He said that he attended a meeting with the local bar on the issue, as well as some other issues.  The problems go beyond poor graduates with enormous debt.  The number of applicants to law schools around the nation have fallen.  Some schools have adjusted and reduced class size.  Others just reduced admission standards so that they can keep the dollars flowing in.  This has resulted in lower quality graduates.  This led to falling Bar passing rates, which means grads with all of the debt but none of the license to practice law. 
Now, add this.  A lot of the same firms who aren't hiring as many associates are also not hiring interns.  A lot of internships have dried up as money went other places.  I swear to you I learned more about being a lawyer during my internship than I did in three years of law school.  Without that experience, a lot of grads have plenty of academic knowledge and no real world knowledge.
The results...poorer quality graduates without any practical experience, with thousands of dollars in debt suddenly coming due, who are flooding into the market.  Where do they end up?  Criminal law, trying to get trial experience they can sell to a firm and as many billable hours as possible to make money.  So they end up as prosecutors and defense attorneys, mucking up the criminal justice system which is already heading to Hades in a hand basket.  You get prosecutors who charge the hell out of cases and push for plea bargains so they can get a high conviction rate, and defense lawyers who don't know what they're doing taking on a ton of cases so they can bill more, and pushing to plead out more cases. 
Take away for us?  Better find a good criminal defense lawyer now before you need one.  As an armed citizen in the world these days, the prospects for needing one seem to be getting far more likely.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,667
Re: The job market is still sucky for new lawyers
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2016, 11:32:31 AM »
Better find a good criminal defense lawyer now before you need one.  As an armed citizen in the world these days, the prospects for needing one seem to be getting far more likely.
That strikes me as very good advice, Chris.  Do you have any suggestions on how to best select one?

TechMan

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,562
  • Yes, your moderation has been outsourced.
Re: The job market is still sucky for new lawyers
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2016, 01:28:32 PM »
That strikes me as very good advice, Chris.  Do you have any suggestions on how to best select one?

If you have a state gun right's organization, I would call them and see if they have any attorneys that they recommend.  I would get more than one name.
Quote
Hawkmoon - Never underestimate another person's capacity for stupidity. Any time you think someone can't possibly be that dumb ... they'll prove you wrong.

Bacon and Eggs - A day's work for a chicken; A lifetime commitment for a pig.
Stupidity will always be its own reward.
Bad decisions make good stories.

Quote
Viking - The problem with the modern world is that there aren't really any predators eating stupid people.

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,409
Re: The job market is still sucky for new lawyers
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2016, 04:28:00 PM »
If you have a state gun right's organization, I would call them and see if they have any attorneys that they recommend.  I would get more than one name.

This is good advice.  Also, you can check with most bar associations to see who is listed for criminal law in your area.  Get the names and let your Google-fu go to work.  Read about the cases he/she has handled.  Has the attorney ever been sanctioned by the state bar for misconduct?  Check court records for the attorney's name as a defendant...sometimes attorneys get sued for malpractice.  A loss would be telling.  What law school did the attorney attend?  Did the attorney pass the bar the first try?  If you use a lawyer for business work, or estate work, or divorce, ask who they would use for criminal defense.  Attorneys know who the good lawyers are.

Ask for a meeting.  Trust your instincts.  As about firearms cases.  When I was a prosecutor, I loved doing gun cases with defense lawyers who knew nothing about firearms.  Especially the ones who would walk around with the gun in hand and point it at the jury.  A lot of criminal defense lawyers lean towards the liberal side.  An interview will let you know if your gun interests will be a problem.  Biggest thing...if you meet a lawyer, and that lawyer doesn't understand why you're there and discussing the possibility of future need, forget it.  That kind of lawyer is one who would push for a plea bargain.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,667
Re: The job market is still sucky for new lawyers
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2016, 04:46:15 PM »
Thanks Chris and adively.
I do some work for a small-town lawyer who seems pretty competent and who isn't afraid to take things to trial, but I'll have to see what other options are out there.

Ned Hamford

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,075
Re: The job market is still sucky for new lawyers
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2016, 12:20:50 PM »
Rather like a doctor, mechanic, or any other professional whose opinion and expertise you are paying for; trust is a major issue.  Your own best interest may run counter to their own economic/professional incentives.  I do say be wary of anyone who is unable or unwilling to explain your choices and their appreciation/expectation of likely outcomes.  While the cost may be less, your interests are generally best served by someone who is building a relationship for the long term rather than expecting a singular interaction.  I think of it as the difference between an attorney and counselor at law.  I've had a number of folks come in interested in a purchasing attorney for a real estate deal or a divorce; paperwork and income would be easy, but I've lost more than a fair amount of business from doing the client's best interest informational discussion on expense and time of immediate necessary repair and 'Ok, so where are you going to live and do you know these are the numbers for child support/spousal maintenance... has counseling been tried?' 

A fair amount of established/competent legal work these days is dealing with the aftermath of 'the cheaper guy.'  I'm sure that is a truism across many professions.  Almost always more cost effective to have things done right the first time. 
Improbus a nullo flectitur obsequio.