Author Topic: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks  (Read 46222 times)

seeker_two

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #225 on: September 15, 2012, 07:47:53 PM »
And what percentage of this 1.2 billion people is effectively muzzled, cowed, intimidated?  What percentage would dare protest from the opposite point of view?

And how many of those Muslims live in free, non-oppressive nations compared to ones that want to wage covert actions against the US?...
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #226 on: September 15, 2012, 07:58:18 PM »
And how many of those Muslims live in free, non-oppressive nations compared to ones that want to wage covert actions against the US?...

I don't know about free and non-oppressive, but I think it's quite arguable that more Muslims live in nations that are at least nominal US allies than not.
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Sergeant Bob

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #227 on: September 15, 2012, 09:35:18 PM »
I don't know about free and non-oppressive, but I think it's quite arguable that more Muslims live in nations that are at least nominal US allies than not.

That is true. I believe there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,211,148,707 Muslims in the world and we are not at war with most of them.

Edited by Captain Obvious
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 06:45:03 PM by Sergeant Bob »
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Jamie B

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #228 on: September 15, 2012, 10:11:13 PM »
That is true. I believe there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 Billion Muslims in the world and we are not at war with most of them.
Agreed, but I wonder how quickly they would fall under the spell of their radical, American hating cleric leaders.

I fear that they are more prone to being sheep than weak Americans.
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roo_ster

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #229 on: September 15, 2012, 10:29:12 PM »
1,211,148,707 Muslims killed no ambassadors today.

Don't set your sites too high...
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De Selby

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #230 on: September 16, 2012, 03:00:57 AM »
And how many of those Muslims live in free, non-oppressive nations compared to ones that want to wage covert actions against the US?...

How many of those oppressive crap holes do not receive US financial and military help to keep their dictatorships alive?

This amnesia is pretty tough to explain - the us funded and armed the dictator who for 30 years tortured Egyptians.  Now we're outraged and dumbfounded that they don't like us being there? 

Same for Libya.  Helping ghaddafi arrest his enemies and making oil deals to keep him rich cant have left a great aftertaste.

These mobs arent angry for no reason. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Sindawe

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #231 on: September 16, 2012, 12:11:30 PM »
How many of those oppressive crap holes do not receive US financial and military help to keep their dictatorships alive?

This amnesia is pretty tough to explain - the us funded and armed the dictator who for 30 years tortured Egyptians.  Now we're outraged and dumbfounded that they don't like us being there? 

Same for Libya.  Helping ghaddafi arrest his enemies and making oil deals to keep him rich cant have left a great aftertaste.

These mobs arent angry for no reason. 

Have a care De Selby, you're coming awfull close to sounding like a fictional teenaged girl much loved on this forum.
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Hutch

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #232 on: September 16, 2012, 12:25:26 PM »
How many of those oppressive crap holes do not receive US financial and military help to keep their dictatorships alive?

This amnesia is pretty tough to explain - the us funded and armed the dictator who for 30 years tortured Egyptians.  Now we're outraged and dumbfounded that they don't like us being there? 

Same for Libya.  Helping ghaddafi arrest his enemies and making oil deals to keep him rich cant have left a great aftertaste.

These mobs arent angry for no reason. 
Ah.  Got it.  Ramsey Clarke reasoning.  Blame our foreign policy, but only as far back as W.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #233 on: September 16, 2012, 01:11:51 PM »
Ramsey Clarke reasoning.


now THAT was a shot
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #234 on: September 16, 2012, 01:52:58 PM »
Ah.  Got it.  Ramsey Clarke reasoning.  Blame our foreign policy, but only as far back as W.

Have you read the post you responded to?
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Hutch

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #235 on: September 16, 2012, 02:03:06 PM »
You mean the one I snipped and quoted?  Yes.  I thought I'd help him out a bit.  Intervention in Kosovo by Billy Jeff - good.  Intervention in Libya by BO - good.  Intervention in Iraq, Afghanistan by Dubya - bad.  Internment camps at Gitmo, opened by Dubya - unacceptable.  Failure to close camps as promised by BO - acceptable.

The double standard gets to be very bothersome.  I refuse to let it go unremarked any more.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 02:09:03 PM by Hutch »
"My limited experience does not permit me to appreciate the unquestionable wisdom of your decision"

Seems like every day, I'm forced to add to the list of people who can just kiss my hairy ass.

roo_ster

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #236 on: September 16, 2012, 02:17:11 PM »
Methinks some felt his comment fell flat.
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roo_ster

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #237 on: September 16, 2012, 02:21:56 PM »
You mean the one I snipped and quoted?  Yes.  I thought I'd help him out a bit.  Intervention in Kosovo by Billy Jeff - good.  Intervention in Libya by BO - good.  Intervention in Iraq, Afghanistan by Dubya - bad.  Internment camps at Gitmo, opened by Dubya - unacceptable.  Failure to close camps as promised by BO - acceptable.

The double standard gets to be very bothersome.  I refuse to let it go unremarked any more.


The one where he specifically referred to the Presidencies before GWB - the one where De Selby explicitly talked about how subsidies for Mubarak had been going on for 30 years?

Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

roo_ster

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #238 on: September 16, 2012, 02:39:21 PM »
I wonder, since Jimmy Carter ghost wrote several of Yassir Arafat's speeches, will BHO ghost write speeches for Lil' Squinty over in Iran after "serving" America?
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roo_ster

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De Selby

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #239 on: September 16, 2012, 06:07:31 PM »
You mean the one I snipped and quoted?  Yes.  I thought I'd help him out a bit.  Intervention in Kosovo by Billy Jeff - good.  Intervention in Libya by BO - good.  Intervention in Iraq, Afghanistan by Dubya - bad.  Internment camps at Gitmo, opened by Dubya - unacceptable.  Failure to close camps as promised by BO - acceptable.

The double standard gets to be very bothersome.  I refuse to let it go unremarked any more.

Uh, as micro pointed out, you realise I commented on the policies of every president since Carter there right?

Where have I given any indication on this board, ever, that the things you marked "acceptable" are actually acceptable in my view?

I think you have built yourself an obvious straw man there - my comment was about how Egyptians and Libyans might still be pissed off that several US presidents, over time, helped their dictators stay in power and even handed over dissidents to be tortured and killed.

You responded by listing totally unrelated foreign policies.  How do those matter to Egyptian and Libyan reactions to US support for dictatorships?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #240 on: September 16, 2012, 06:08:07 PM »
There are reports that one of the others killed saw it coming . Messaged friends that one of the police supposedly protecting them had been seen taking pictures of the house. He seemed to havw coreectly seen it as scouting for attack.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Fitz

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #241 on: September 16, 2012, 06:16:16 PM »
There are reports that one of the others killed saw it coming . Messaged friends that one of the police supposedly protecting them had been seen taking pictures of the house. He seemed to havw coreectly seen it as scouting for attack.

Yep. He was an Eve Online player and msged it on the game forums before the attack
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Hutch

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #242 on: September 16, 2012, 06:38:35 PM »
Um.  I may have responded to an assertion that was not made.

I freely accept that we gave money and support to Mubarak as a price for keeping a lid on the Islamic fundies there.  Propped up Libya? How?  By bombing them in support of an insurgency?

Tunisia?  Syria?  Yemen?  (well, maybe Yemen, if only a bit) How are we engaged in those cauldrons?  My sentiment remains.  We accept as inevitable or at least understandable, behavior from Islamics in the ME that we would decry by other religious zealots elsewhere. I reject the notion that we are somehow culpable for the brutal murder of 4 of our diplomatic corp.
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Seems like every day, I'm forced to add to the list of people who can just kiss my hairy ass.

grampster

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #243 on: September 16, 2012, 06:40:53 PM »
Uh, as micro pointed out, you realise I commented on the policies of every president since Carter there right?

Where have I given any indication on this board, ever, that the things you marked "acceptable" are actually acceptable in my view?

I think you have built yourself an obvious straw man there - my comment was about how Egyptians and Libyans might still be pissed off that several US presidents, over time, helped their dictators stay in power and even handed over dissidents to be tortured and killed.

You responded by listing totally unrelated foreign policies.  How do those matter to Egyptian and Libyan reactions to US support for dictatorships?

While I as an American despise despots and tyrants and fully understanding that US government policy has supported despots and tyrants, the record pretty much shows that when the despot or tyrant is thrown out, usually with the help of the US government, the "rebels", especially in Muslim countries, make life much worse for the ordinary person who lives in those countries to say nothing of the butchery that gets exported by them.  One evil dictator for an even more evil dictator.
 
The irony also seems to be that the rather low number of "radical muslims" used  earlier in this thread (Or perhaps in another by Micro??) compared to the total population comes back to bite you apologists for radical Islamists as this low number you use, if accurate, creates a disproportionate amount of violence off in every direction, especially against women and children and having a propensity of biting the hand that feeds them.  Their 4th century, tribalist, misoginystic religion adheres to the art of lying to everyone who does not follow their sect as a tenent of their faith.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 06:44:02 PM by grampster »
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #244 on: September 16, 2012, 06:57:49 PM »
from grm  one of the folks there has a bud  who has been there
The Embassy is located in the nation's capitol city. It contains the Ambassador.
A Consulate is a section responsible for issusing tourist and immigration visas for entry to the United States, and assisting American citizens living and traveling in that country. It is headed by a Consul General.

Generally there will be a Consulate in each major city within the country, each with it's own Consul General. In the capitol city, the Consulate will be a section within the Embassy. All Consulates within the country are subordinate to the Embassy, and the Ambassador. There is only one Ambassador, but there is a Consul General for every Consulate.

MSGs are responsible for safeguarding Classified and Sensitive Information. Since Consulates normally do not contain any of this, being focused on issuing visas and other simple administrative work, they often do not have any Marines assigned to them. Some do, most do not.


Personal protection for the Ambassador is not a direct responsibility for MSGs. Ambassadors have their own bodyguards for whom that is the sole job. MSGs will protect the Ambassador, and any US Government personnel, if necessary and they are able, but their focus is preventing compromise of national security.

Hope that helped to clarify.
Update: Got some word from a Foreign Service friend of mine. Everything is still very confused and foggy, but he was able to give me a little better context.

1) The consulate in Libya was pretty ghetto. It was a converted one-floor motel building. The only reason the consulate was located there was because that was one of the only areas the rebels had under their control back when we first established relations with them. The diplomats got on the ground, looked around, and the motel was the first suitable building they could find to set up shop.
Bottom line though is that it was NOT very defensible. Apart from a few modifications, it was still largely a civilian structure. So use your imagination to infer what that implies.
Once the old regime was toppled, and the new embassy was established in the capitol of Tripoli, it was expected that either the motel-consulate would be closed altogether, or a new building would be acquired or built, but no action had been taken yet.

2) The attack on the Beghazi consulate was not a protest-gone-wrong. It likely had nothing to do with this supposed offensive movie either. It was a direct, planned, coordinated assault. It was a firefight that lasted for hours and hours. The attackers had heavy weapons, including heavy machineguns, RPGs, bombs, and possibly mortars. People don't bring that stuff incidentally to a normal protest.
While the details are still unclear, what likely happened was that there WAS a peaceful protest by some salifists going on outside in connection with the video, but a number of attackers used the protest as cover to launch their assault. Which implies some element of manipulation by the attackers, stirring up the protest in the first place (translating the movie into arabic?).

3) The normal Libyans are horrified. Chris Stevens was well liked, well respected, and the American presence relatively popular. Literally just a couple months ago, Ambassador Stevens announced that we would begin issuing US visas to Libyans again. The Libyans are genuinely grateful for the non-intrusive support for their revolution. When the attack commenced, the local Libyan security guards who were protecting the Consulate fought hard to defend it. Many (at least 20, possibly all of them) died at their posts, defending it (remember too how ghetto the defenses were). When Ambassador Steven's vehicle was hit by an RPG, attempting to evacuate from the scene, it was normal Libyans who pulled him out, and who took him and the other casualties to other American workers located nearby, and accompanied him to the hospital. It is possible that the angry civilian presence at the scene drove the attackers off, preventing them from following up on their attack.

4) Chris Stevens is a *moderated for GRM* hero. He was present as part of a planned visit to cut the ribbon for the grand opening of a new American Center building, so the fact that he would be there at that time was publically known. When the attack commenced, the personnel inside the Consulate went to their assigned places, but then the building was set on fire by the attackers. Ambassador Stevens apparently went into the burning building to rescue his people, and ensure the all got out to safety. It is likely that his death was contributed to by smoke inhalation as a result.


Take all of the above with a grain of salt. It's fourth-hand info.
But it does paint a very interesting picture.

p.s. Confirmed there are no MSGs in EITHER Benghazi, or Tripoli. Though now the diplomats in Tripoli are BEGGING for them to be sent some. Can't speak regarding FAST team elements.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

MillCreek

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #245 on: September 16, 2012, 07:35:24 PM »
^^^This is all quite interesting.  I will be fascinated to see if the passage of time proves it accurate.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #246 on: September 16, 2012, 07:51:32 PM »
I concur with leaving the screaming beards of the Middle East (and other places) to wallow in their superstitions and willful ignorance.

"We'll leave you alone if you leave us alone.  Continue to make pests of yourselves against the rest of world and there will be no other option but to expunge the infestation that is you from the planet."

But ... but ... but ... But that would be waging war on Islam, which is what the screaming beards are already accusing us of doing.

So, looking at this logically, if we are already being castigated and attacked for doing something, one might conjecture that we have nothing to lose by actually doing the aforementioned something. Further, one might remark on the irony of a group that is actively engaged in attacking western (and eastern) Christians at every opportunity complaining that Christians are attacking them.

We need to recruit a WHOLE bunch more combat engineers. There needs to be a lot of wall built -- first along the entire length of the southern border of the U.S., and then another one completely around a bunch of countries in the mid-east and northern Africa. Send all the illegal Latinos back to Mexico, and send all the Muslims back where they came from, Sharia law and "honor killings" with them. Weld the gates shut and let the Sunnis and Shiites duke it out without our interference.

We also need strict immigration quotas. Australia has had quotas for decades. If they don't need your profession, you can't emigrate there. The U.S. does NOT need any more Pakistani hotel managers, Quik-Mart clerks, or liquor store owners. We also don't need any more Mexican McDonalds counter and kitchen workers. If we don't need them, they are just taking work away from Americans who need work.
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French G.

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #247 on: September 16, 2012, 09:55:22 PM »
Quote
The world needed to know Muslims "would not be silent in the face of this insult", Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah said

So says hezbollah. What exactly should we do in the face of the insult of our sovreign territory being overrun and our people killed? That's a wee bit worse than youtube.
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SADShooter

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #248 on: September 16, 2012, 10:12:44 PM »
So says hezbollah. What exactly should we do in the face of the insult of our sovreign territory being overrun and our people killed? That's a wee bit worse than youtube.

"Sensitivity to the religious feelings of others" apparently now transcends murder and pedantic issues of sovereignty. I.e., rules of civility/human decency only apply to us corrupt, decadent westerners. Get with the program...
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De Selby

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #249 on: September 16, 2012, 10:26:38 PM »
So let me get this straight - no one disputes that the US helped Mubarak and Ghaddaffi to torture their opponents, but we still presume that the cartoons and videos are the only drivers of this anger???

Wow.

It's tremendous irony that folks here have called for nuking their cities and wiping out millions of people over killings of US personnel, but cannot seem to imagine that Arabs might feel the same way over US assistance in torture and killing over there.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."