Author Topic: I don't want my son picking tomatoes  (Read 4542 times)

RadioFreeSeaLab

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I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« on: February 13, 2007, 07:01:34 AM »
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NTZhZDdiYmJlNDViYTAwOWExNmUyMmQ5ODlmMWYwYTU=

Quote
Not Our Kind of People   [Mark Krikorian]
According to a congressman's wife who attended a Republican women's luncheon yesterday, Karl Rove explained the rationale behind the president's amnesty/open-borders proposal this way: "I don't want my 17-year-old son to have to pick tomatoes or make beds in Las Vegas."

There should be no need to explain why this is an obscene statement coming from a leader in the party that promotes the virtues of hard work, thrift, and sobriety, a party whose demi-god actually split fence rails as a young man, a party where "respectable Republican cloth coat" once actually meant something. But it does seem to be necessary to explain.

Rove's comment illustrates how the Bush-McCain-Giuliani-Hagel-Martinez-Brownback-Huckabee approach to immigration strikes at the very heart of self-government. It is precisely Rove's son (and my own, and those of the rest of us in the educated elite) who should work picking tomatoes or making beds, or washing restaurant dishes, or mowing lawns, especially when they're young, to help them develop some of the personal and civic virtues needed for self-government. It's not that I want my kids to make careers of picking tomatoes; Mexican farmworkers don't want that either. But we must inculcate in our children, especially those likely to go on to high-paying occupations, that there is no such thing as work that is beneath them.

As Tocqueville wrote: "In the United States professions are more or less laborious, more or less profitable; but they are never either high or low: every honest calling is honorable." The farther we move from that notion, the closer we come to the idea that the lawyer is somehow better than the parking-lot attendant, undercutting the very foundation of republican government.

This is why the president's "willing worker/willing employer" immigration extravaganza is morally wrong  it's not just that it will cost taxpayers untold billions, or that it will beggar our own blue-collar workers, or that it will compromise security, or that it will further dissolve our sovereignty. It would do all that, of course, but most importantly it would change the very nature of our society for the worse, creating whole occupations deemed to be unfit for respectable Americans, for which little brown people have to be imported from abroad. In other words, mass immigration, even now, is moving us toward an unequal, master-servant society.

To borrow from Lincoln, our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. When it comes to this, I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty  to Saudi Arabia, for instance.

The Rabbi

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Re: I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2007, 07:07:19 AM »
Not this sh*t again. angry
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Manedwolf

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Re: I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2007, 07:16:48 AM »
Yes, that's precisely what I thought when I heard Rove had said that. But I also was thankful that he'd let slip his true feelings.

PEOPLE NEED TO READ THAT and understand that that greasy turd and his ilk, in fact, a good deal of the politicians in Washington, of both parties, do truly believe that they're a class above the "working man" peons.

wingnutx

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Re: I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2007, 07:29:44 AM »
Everyone should work a really hard, crappy job at some point in their life, if only for perspective.

If I was a billionaire I'd still have my kid go out and labor in some fashion.


RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2007, 07:40:15 AM »
My first job was washing dogs for a grooming shop.  It sucked.  A lot.  And I made beans.  $1 - small dog, $2 - medium, $3 - large.
I'd make about 25 bucks on a really, really good day.

HankB

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Re: I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2007, 07:54:54 AM »
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
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RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2007, 07:58:11 AM »
Whoops, you're right.

El Tejon

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Re: I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2007, 08:08:52 AM »
Wow, the mask slipped there, Karl. grin

Nice to see what the Power Elite really think.
I do not smoke pot, wear Wookie suits, live in my mom's basement, collect unemployment checks or eat Cheetoes, therefore I am not a Ron Paul voter.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2007, 08:59:38 AM »
I don't want my children picking tomatoes or making beds, either.  That sort of work is best left to the uneducated and unskilled laborers of the world.  Once fully grown and independent, I sincerely hope my children (once I have them) will be a cut above that level, both in terms of skillset and ambition.  Unskilled labor jobs are fine for kids while they're still learning and developing their marketable skills.  But they need to improve themselves beyond that level.  They need to raise themselves above that level.

If this makes me an elitist turd, then so be it.  Y'all can pick all the tomatoes you like.  I want a better life for me and mine.

RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2007, 09:03:25 AM »
I think that isn't quite what Karl meant.  Of course no one wants their kids to make careers of harvesting tomatoes.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2007, 09:23:02 AM »
I think that's exactly what Karl meant.  Unskilled jobs are for unskilled laborers. 

Even the worst American dropouts have a basic education.  They can sort of read, perform rudimentary arithmetic, and speak the language well enough to convey a simple idea.  They have more skills than are needed for unskilled labor positions like tomato picking and bed making. Mexican illegal immigrants generally don't have any of those basic skills.  This means that the illegals should be picking the tomatoes and making the beds, whereas the Americans should be doing something more.  It isn't elitism or snobbery or racism or whatever.  It's objective reality, stripped of the politically correct niceties.

The lowest levels of American workers are worth slightly more than unskilled labor.  Let the uneducated, illiterate immigrants who can't speak the language pick tomatoes.  Until they improve themselves that's all they're good for in the job market.

Glock Glockler

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Re: I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2007, 10:50:02 AM »
If his son has more grey matter than your average tomato picker then he won't pick them, can Rove really be that stupid?

mustanger98

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Re: I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2007, 10:57:24 AM »
I like to grow a garden and pick my own tomatoes. grin I get to pick 'em when they're just right instead of under-ripe or over-ripe. grin I don't like picking beans unless they're those pole beans that climb; no need in my breaking my back for 'em.

Who really cares what Karl Rove thinks anyway.

brimic

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Re: I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2007, 11:58:58 AM »
My first couple of part time jobs involved detassling corn and shearing christmas trees. Yep, most of my coworkers were Mexicans- didn't harm me a bit. I'm betting that a lot of kids these days could learn a lot more about work ethic from Mexicans tha they can from their parents.
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StopTheGrays

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Re: I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2007, 12:54:46 PM »
John McCain offered to pay people $50 an hour to pick lettuce in AZ. Maybe he will the same for Tomatoes.  grin
Does any image illustrate so neatly the wrongheadedness of the Obama administration than Americans scrambling in terror from Air Force One?
Just great…Chicago politics has spread to all 57 states.
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mustanger98

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Re: I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2007, 12:58:20 PM »
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I'm betting that a lot of kids these days could learn a lot more about work ethic from Mexicans tha they can from their parents.

Yeah. Seriously, I regularly eat in a Mexican restraunt here that's owned and operated by Mexicans. I generally walk in the front door, get a table right away... 85% of the time, the chips and salsa and sweet tea are on the table post haste and the other 15% of the time, it still ain't a long wait. About the time the chips and salsa get there, the waiter's taking my order and I'm usually eating pretty soon after that. Those guys work. They work hard keeping things rolling. A lot of the teenagers I see eating there probably have no idea what work is much less what it takes to keep a quality restraunt up and running. That's just one example.

To my mind, illegal immigration is another issue. If they're not here legally, they ought not be here. If they came in legal, by all means let them do the jobs they know how to do. I'm not in the habit of cussin' a whole nationality because of the actions of some. There's Americans as white as I am I tend to cuss just as much and just as fast. I'd be for running those illegal grape pickers all the way back to Mexico under fire if necessary for the way they treat Americans for wanting a job.

Used to be, an immigrant came to America, they came through Ellis Island or somewhere else legal and they were proud to have a job. Many times, they were proud to create their own job providing goods and/or services in trades they learned in the old country. That's fading fast if it's not already dead. But I remember almost 20 years ago (I'm 32 now) when my Daddy told me what he heard about that and some of that rubbed off on me... and WE WERE BORN HERE. That's part of why I've tried to get a foothold in the horse gear and western wear business... to create my own job like so many Americans and aspiring Americans have. But most Americans I know can't seem to understand that.

gunsmith

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Re: I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2007, 01:21:13 PM »
teenagers in Napa Valley have been beaten up for applying for jobs picking grapes.
Charles Bukowski wrote about being a bum and having to do the kind of back breaking work
illegals do now so he could buy more wine.
Bums and teens would do this work if illegals were not.
Illegals also cost a bunch in hospital and other services, not to mention all the people they have killed.
www.immigrationhumancost.org
All the Hispanics I have worked with have generally out worked me, most of the ones I served with were better soldiers.   They were all legal.
Thanks alot Karl.
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crt360

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Re: I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2007, 03:05:26 PM »
Even the worst American dropouts have a basic education.  They can sort of read, perform rudimentary arithmetic, and speak the language well enough to convey a simple idea.  They have more skills than are needed for unskilled labor positions like tomato picking and bed making.

I hate to say it, but I would have to disagree.  If the white kids working at Taco Bell are any indicator, rolling beans up in a tortilla and counting to two are above the skill level of some Americans (who may not even be dropouts) and I can only guess what the "worst" are capable of.  I think we have quite a few that would find tomato-picking a significant challenge.
For entertainment purposes only.

CAnnoneer

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Re: I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2007, 04:03:22 PM »
He said what he meant and he meant what he said.


Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2007, 04:27:59 PM »
He said what he meant and he meant what he said.
I agree.  The difference is that I don't have a problem with what he said/meant.  Make it legal for unskilled laborers from Mexico to work here.  Those that can speak English (sort of) and can figure out that $0.56 is two quarters, one nickel and one penny, ought not be picking tomatoes. 

I think Rove and Bush et al are on the right track with regard to immigration.  Their ideas aren't perfect, but they're a lot closer than most other ideas I've heard.  Take care of security (i.e. get a handle on who's in the country and what their disposition is), then get out of the way and let the free market do its thing.

CAnnoneer

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Re: I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2007, 04:44:31 PM »
Quote from: Headless Thompson Gunner
I think Rove and Bush et al are on the right track with regard to immigration.  Their ideas aren't perfect, but they're a lot closer than most other ideas I've heard. 

LOLROTF

So, let me get this straight - we have 12 to 20 million illegals here, yet we expect them to leave then come back as temp workers then leave again. Why would they? What is their differential benefit? Why would they jump through all these hoops instead of doing what they do now?

How will a limited guestworker program keep 2 million desperate people from swarming through our wide-open borders every year?

How much will we have to expand INS bureaucracy, which is already big, fat, slow, and clogged?

How many dependents will swarm through as well? Who will pay for their schools and medical bills?

How will all of the above affect our taxes, infrastructure, ecology, congested cities, and suburban sprawl?

Make no mistake - what the Bushes and Roves of the world want is to please themselves and their Big Business buddies, while shielding themselves from the social consequences in their secluded gated communities with private guards. If all what they want comes to pass, this great country will be reduced to a gigantic banana republic, Latin-American-style.

Sindawe

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Re: I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2007, 04:54:08 PM »
Quote
Take care of security (i.e. get a handle on who's in the country and what their disposition is), then get out of the way and let the free market do its thing.

Ya know, that was the same load of dren put forth by Washington D.C. 20+ freaking years ago when this nation had a "one time amnesty" of the illegal aliens in the nation.  Promised strong enforcement of the immigration laws, control of the border and let the free market do its thing.

Problem is, none of the took place.  The American people were sold a bill of goods in 1986, and now the same stripe of hucksters is selling the same bill of goods.
I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2007, 05:11:42 PM »
Quote from: Headless Thompson Gunner
I think Rove and Bush et al are on the right track with regard to immigration.  Their ideas aren't perfect, but they're a lot closer than most other ideas I've heard. 

LOLROTF

So, let me get this straight - we have 12 to 20 million illegals here, yet we expect them to leave then come back as temp workers then leave again. Why would they? What is their differential benefit? Why would they jump through all these hoops instead of doing what they do now?

How will a limited guestworker program keep 2 million desperate people from swarming through our wide-open borders every year?

How much will we have to expand INS bureaucracy, which is already big, fat, slow, and clogged?

How many dependents will swarm through as well? Who will pay for their schools and medical bills?

How will all of the above affect our taxes, infrastructure, ecology, congested cities, and suburban sprawl?

Make no mistake - what the Bushes and Roves of the world want is to please themselves and their Big Business buddies, while shielding themselves from the social consequences in their secluded gated communities with private guards. If all what they want comes to pass, this great country will be reduced to a gigantic banana republic, Latin-American-style.
Seal the borders.  Open new Ellis Isle's in El Paso or San Diego or wherever.  Allow workers to enter through the official points, and when they do provide them with ID and background checks.  Begin checking all non-citizens found anywhere in the country for the official ID.  Those that have it are free to go about their business, those that don't get deported without hesitation.

Yes, those that are already here can be expected to play by the new rules.  They're here because they want to be, and the safe, risk-free way to be here will be by playing by the new rules.  If you make it possible for them to abide by the rules, they won't be compelled to break the rules.

People won't swarm over the border.  Those that want to enter and work will do so officially and legally through the checkpoint.  There will be high risk of jumping the border illegally because border security will be improved and the prospects of getting caught without the official ID will be prohibitive.

The INS bureaucracy will expand little.  The officials who managed Ellis Isle didn't need much in the way of bureaucracy, and there's no reason why we can't do it that way again.

Dependents will stay in Mexico.  The program is for workers.  I could just as easily accept a system where dependents are allowed in provided they aren't entitled to public welfare services.  (Actually, the real solution to this immigration problem, as well as a whole lot of other problems, is to eliminate public welfare services entirely.  But that's a whole nuther can of worms.)

Taxes needn't be raised.  Existing infrastructure needn't change, beyond the issuance and checking of a new guest worker ID.  Congestion and urban sprawl isn't an issue, as neither are within the authority of the Fed to regulate.  Besides, as you say most of them are already here anyway.

You may not like Bush or Rove.  That's fair, it's your prerogative.  But at least take the time to think about their ideas before dismissing them as coming from self-centered lunatics hell-bent on destroying the country.  Inflammatory rhetoric about wanting to turn the country into a banana republic doesn't improve your credibility much.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2007, 05:26:41 PM »
Quote
Take care of security (i.e. get a handle on who's in the country and what their disposition is), then get out of the way and let the free market do its thing.

Ya know, that was the same load of dren put forth by Washington D.C. 20+ freaking years ago when this nation had a "one time amnesty" of the illegal aliens in the nation.  Promised strong enforcement of the immigration laws, control of the border and let the free market do its thing.

Problem is, none of the took place.  The American people were sold a bill of goods in 1986, and now the same stripe of hucksters is selling the same bill of goods.
The fact that some other folks failed to do what they should have 20 years ago doesn't meant that the new folks can't or won't do it today.  Y'all are smart enough to see the logical fallacy here.

The problem has been mismanaged in the past.  There's no denying that.  But failing to implement a plan, then pointing out that that never-tried plan didn't perform, isn't a sound argument against the original plan.  It's an argument against failure to implement.  Y'all are smart enough to understand the logical fallacy here, too.

Take a breath.  Think about the issue logically.  Then take another breath. 

This is a real problem.  It requires a real solution.  Heated emotions, inflammatory rhetoric, illogical thought process, and knee-jerk xenophobia don't solve problems.  Cool, rational, logical thought and discussion does.  Formulating a sound plan, then implementing that plan, solves problems.

Running all of the immigrants out on a rail is neither desirable nor possible.  CAnnoneer mentions increasing the INS bureaucracy as an argument against my ideas.  But can you imagine what kind of bureaucracy would be needed to expel the 20 million immigrants here now?  Can you imagine how many ways our rights would be trampled in the process?  As plans go, this one's a loser.

I say that Bush/Roves plan is the most sensible mainstream plan I've heard.  I stand by this statement.  If you have a better idea, put it forward.  Odds are good I've heard it before and found it lacking, but you never know.

CAnnoneer

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Re: I don't want my son picking tomatoes
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2007, 05:48:21 PM »
Quote from: Headless Thompson
Seal the borders. 

Who will do that? Bush? Rove? Why haven't they? Do you expect his admin to do 180deg turn on enforcement? If you do, why?

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those that don't get deported without hesitation.

Just like they are deported now? What, we do not know who or where they are? Check any HomeDepot or gardening business.

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If you make it possible for them to abide by the rules, they won't be compelled to break the rules.

Great. Let's change all laws then, so that all criminals can more easily abide by them.

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People won't swarm over the border.  Those that want to enter and work will do so officially and legally through the checkpoint. 

A checkpoint is meaningless without enforcement and Bush&co will not enforce (see above). Without enforcement, going through the official channels will be for saps, as it is now. So is Ellis Isle.

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Dependents will stay in Mexico.  The program is for workers. 

How will that happen in between Dems and sobby bishops? That's a political impossibility above all.

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Actually, the real solution to this immigration problem, as well as a whole lot of other problems, is to eliminate public welfare services entirely.

Fantasy.

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Congestion and urban sprawl isn't an issue,

You have not been on the freeways of SoCal recently, have you? Or traveled towards San Bernardino? (A few months ago, it took me four and a half hours to get from L.A. to San Diego. Enough said.)

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Inflammatory rhetoric about wanting to turn the country into a banana republic doesn't improve your credibility much.

Your post showed such a disconnect from reality that credibility is hardly something you should bring up. Hehe.