Author Topic: U.S. Military Dress Code To Change  (Read 8283 times)

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: U.S. Military Dress Code To Change
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2014, 12:20:28 PM »
You know they're wearing dresses and carrying fire axes, right?  If not for the beards, they'd be made fun of!

They're wearing funky aprons missing half the top front, not dresses.  They're sappers.  I wouldn't make fun of them period.

Oh, and for that parade they especially select them from the units for their beards, and they're encouraged to grow them out even more beforehand.

freakazoid

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,243
Re: U.S. Military Dress Code To Change
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2014, 01:20:06 PM »
You need an apron for when you use an axe for killing.
Who are they?
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: U.S. Military Dress Code To Change
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2014, 01:44:56 PM »
You need an apron for when you use an axe for killing.
Who are they?

Legion Etrangere Pionniers

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,005
  • APS Risk Manager
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: U.S. Military Dress Code To Change
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2014, 04:06:04 PM »
Tallpine: that would be the Celts, sir. And they weren't nekkid: they wore blue paint

The "Picts" supposedly, per the Roman propaganda.

They'd probably all qualify as Wiccan today.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Strings

  • APS Pimp
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,195
Re: U.S. Military Dress Code To Change
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2014, 03:19:42 AM »
Tallpine, PLEASE don't get me started on "Pagan v Wiccan". Some of the things people lump together that way *shudder*

Hawkmoon: I finally got him to leave me alone by explaining what would likely happen if I started filing complaints. Then thought I was going to have to do it all over again when we got a new chaplain: turns out he knew nothing about paganism, and wanted some reading material to correct that (IIRC, he was personally Episcopalian)
No Child Should Live In Fear

What was that about a pearl handled revolver and someone from New Orleans again?

Screw it: just autoclave the planet (thanks Birdman)

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Fitz

  • Face-melter
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Floyd Rose is my homeboy
    • My Book
Re: U.S. Military Dress Code To Change
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2014, 12:38:54 PM »
Posted this elsewhere after some long reflection. I know some here will disagree... but here goes anyways, because I value y'all's opinion.

I've been in the military long enough to see some pretty significant changes. Each has been met with a cabal of people who opine that this particular bit or that is going to "ruin the military," and I've even been guilty of it myself at times.

DADT ending: "This is gonna ruin readiness!!! And morale and blah blah" Even though every unit I've ever been in has had homosexuals in it who everyone KNEW was gay, but they couldn't be open about it.

The black beret, prohibiting drinking in uniform, blah blah blah.

The military changes. It's part of life.

Do I think that there will be some people who will use this as an excuse to be different for the sake of being different?
Absolutely.

However, the nice thing about it is this rule still leaves things up to a Commander's discretion.

I know a surgeon who wanted to join the army. Experienced trauma surgeon who wanted to do his part. This may allow him to do so, because he can't shave.

In the end, after 13 years of service, 16 months in Iraq, a year as a drill sergeant, and countless training, combat, and staff positions, I've come to a conclusion.

I don't care about this. These decisions are above my pay grade, and if it doesn't hamper my ability to train troops for combat, I don't care. There is precedent for bearded troops. From the Navy all the way into the 80s, to operators, to Soldiers in the Army prior to WW1, etc. In my mind it's no different than a yamulka (already permitted), and certain other religious headgear (I don't know what the flat topped one that some muslims wear is, but i've seen them in garrison. I guess the difference is you'll start to see them outside of religious services in garrison.

If there's potential for NBC encounters, commanders will have the authority to order them to shave. People will be made aware of this. Unit commanders will also have the power to make the determination if some soldier is actually observing their religion, or if they're faking the funk to get over.

There will be resistance, and there will be conflict, but it will get resolved. Same as any other. Many other militaries throughout the world allow these things. I don't think the Captain in the photos looks any worse because of his beard. I see a commissioned officer who has worked hard to get where he's at, stood by his convictions, and triumphed.

In the end, I trust that my command, the NCOs around me, and other leadership will be able to identify legitimate vs illegitimate observances, and adjust fire accordingly.

As long as I can still train my troops to accomplish their mission, perform in an honorable manner, and bring pain upon the enemy in mass quantities, I don't care.

Bring it on. I support this decision.

we also allowed draftees from pacifict religions to serve in non combat jobs , Christians wear crosses, Muslims are allowed to fast during Ramadan and have accommodations related to that. Makes no difference to me.

let them in, give them a rifle, and lets go deliver pain upon our enemies.
Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: U.S. Military Dress Code To Change
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2014, 01:05:58 PM »
I agree with you Fitz.  In many cases these changes are simply restorations to a time when we had a very active military - there used to NOT be specific legislation against gays, Sikhs were allowed their turbans and beards.  Allowances were made for native americans, etc...

It even comes down to our uniforms.  For the longest time they wanted us to be perfectly matching automatons.  They got rid of unit patches, unit t-shirts, etc...  Now they're bringing them back.  I think they've finally discovered that a certain amount of individualism, unit symbols and such help improve unit pride and morale.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 02:58:27 PM by Firethorn »

White Horseradish

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,792
Re: U.S. Military Dress Code To Change
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2014, 01:24:37 PM »
Fitz, that is very well put. Would you mind if I quoted you elsewhere?
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

Robert A Heinlein

Fitz

  • Face-melter
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Floyd Rose is my homeboy
    • My Book
Re: U.S. Military Dress Code To Change
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2014, 05:21:04 PM »
Fitz, that is very well put. Would you mind if I quoted you elsewhere?

Feel free.

CAVEAT, though. I could prove to be wrong. It could prove to be yet another super divisive issue that hurts readiness.

But I don't think it will be.
Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: U.S. Military Dress Code To Change
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2014, 05:52:41 PM »
Don't worry.  If it effects readiness, they will change the readiness standards.

Besides, we really don't need 100% of our capability for most of our missions until we meet a near-peer or an existential threat of some sort.  Until then, all the accumulated weight of duh-versity, inclusion, PC baloney, and feel-goodery just kills more men (and now, women) at the margins.  And does anyone who matters give a damn about them?  What difference, now that we have instituted these many changes, does it make anyway?
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Fitz

  • Face-melter
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Floyd Rose is my homeboy
    • My Book
Re: U.S. Military Dress Code To Change
« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2014, 06:08:47 PM »
I see no possible way this change could kill anyone
Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

KD5NRH

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,926
  • I'm too sexy for you people.
Re: U.S. Military Dress Code To Change
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2014, 06:20:19 PM »
I wonder how bullet resistant a Sikh's tightly wound turban made out of Xtegra would be.

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: U.S. Military Dress Code To Change
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2014, 07:20:57 PM »
Look at the old Highland Brigades.

They kicked ass wearing beards and skirts  =D
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Re: Re: U.S. Military Dress Code To Change
« Reply #40 on: January 30, 2014, 08:04:38 PM »
Look at the old Highland Brigades.

They kicked ass wearing beards and skirts  =D
They had to defeat the enemy and capture his logistics train or be forced to retreat and continue to eat scottish food.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Strings

  • APS Pimp
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,195
Re: U.S. Military Dress Code To Change
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2014, 12:00:22 AM »
>They had to defeat the enemy and capture his logistics train or be forced to retreat and continue to eat scottish food.<

That suggests a simple way of motivating troops in the future

"It's ok guys: if we don't win here, there's haggis waiting back at the base!"
No Child Should Live In Fear

What was that about a pearl handled revolver and someone from New Orleans again?

Screw it: just autoclave the planet (thanks Birdman)

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: U.S. Military Dress Code To Change
« Reply #42 on: January 31, 2014, 01:21:05 AM »
I wonder how bullet resistant a Sikh's tightly wound turban made out of Xtegra would be.

Some quick research on the subject shows that there is historical evidence of Sikhs wearing helmets as part of their armor, generally with some turban-like elements integrated. 

I can't find it right now, but I seem to remember seeing a 'mini-turban' that wasn't much more than a do-rag that you could fit a standard helmet over.

My personal rule would be 'reasonable accommodation', by which I mean that rules that are there for 'appearance' like removing your cover when you go inside are waived where appropriate, but safety rules are not.  IE if we tell you to wear a helmet because it significantly reduces the chances of shrapnel penetrating to your brain, you do it.  The exact look of the helmet might vary, but your noggin needs to be approximately as well protected as others.

If that means wearing a modified turban in the field, you do it.  If you're dedicated enough to join the military in the first place, maybe cutting your hair(another Sikh thing some don't do) so you can fit protective headgear over your turban is reasonable.  Have a conversation with your religious leaders.



Looks like a helmet might fit over this.

Fitz

  • Face-melter
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Floyd Rose is my homeboy
    • My Book
Re: U.S. Military Dress Code To Change
« Reply #43 on: January 31, 2014, 01:40:48 AM »
Some quick research on the subject shows that there is historical evidence of Sikhs wearing helmets as part of their armor, generally with some turban-like elements integrated. 

I can't find it right now, but I seem to remember seeing a 'mini-turban' that wasn't much more than a do-rag that you could fit a standard helmet over.

My personal rule would be 'reasonable accommodation', by which I mean that rules that are there for 'appearance' like removing your cover when you go inside are waived where appropriate, but safety rules are not.  IE if we tell you to wear a helmet because it significantly reduces the chances of shrapnel penetrating to your brain, you do it.  The exact look of the helmet might vary, but your noggin needs to be approximately as well protected as others.

If that means wearing a modified turban in the field, you do it.  If you're dedicated enough to join the military in the first place, maybe cutting your hair(another Sikh thing some don't do) so you can fit protective headgear over your turban is reasonable.  Have a conversation with your religious leaders.



Looks like a helmet might fit over this.

Dude looks like a stone cold killer.
Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: U.S. Military Dress Code To Change
« Reply #44 on: January 31, 2014, 03:40:07 AM »
Yeah, and he's a military doctor.  Turbans and beards are badass.   :lol:

Especially this dude:


Note that it's actually armored!

Apparently they're going to let a Sikh stand guard before the Buckingham palace without the traditional Bearskin, though I question that they couldn't just get the turban under it?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 05:16:59 AM by Firethorn »

White Horseradish

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,792
Re: U.S. Military Dress Code To Change
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2014, 08:27:55 AM »
Looks like a helmet might fit over this.
I read an article a while ago where they said that back in the day Sikh turbans  actually acted as a sort of a protective liner under the metal helmets they wore. Don't know how true that is, but sounded legit.
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

Robert A Heinlein

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: U.S. Military Dress Code To Change
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2014, 10:38:24 AM »
I read an article a while ago where they said that back in the day Sikh turbans  actually acted as a sort of a protective liner under the metal helmets they wore. Don't know how true that is, but sounded legit.

Found evidence of that when I was doing research - sometimes they didn't wear helmets, but when they really started wearing armor they wore helmets.  The turban varied between being under the helmet to being wrapped around it.  Sometimes both, as seen with the image of the dude I posted before, note the chainmail woven into the assembly.

Edit: I wonder if modern times has gotten so soft that religious types are calcinating a bit and no longer making exceptions for pure practicality?  Sort of like Sikhs not wearing a helmet when it makes sense?