Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Ryan in Maine on December 11, 2008, 12:09:39 AM
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I've been thinking about a snowmobile as a form of alternate transportation this winter (last winter we got over 16' of snow and driving was often a risk). However, I don't know a thing about snowmobiles. I can tell you that Arctic Cat, Polaris, and Ski-Doo pretty much dominate the local market, but I have no brand loyalty at this point.
We have a pretty big trail system here in northern Maine (and throughout Maine for that matter) and bordering Canada. I'd like something that gets good gas mileage and will handle all riding conditions, from a few fresh feet of powder to dirty and slushy pack. Light weight and comfort would be sweet.
So where should my research start and what can you tell me about snowmobiles that you've discovered over the years?
Thanks.
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and what can you tell me about snowmobiles that you've discovered over the years?
It's been a looong time, but I do know they start much easier when stored in a heated garage.
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bcsar.org%2FLilCat_01.jpg&hash=57cf97f7bc24a6bd0b3319fa6f347bad90368d77)
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I'd buy a newer one with low miles, or if it has higher miles those a trail ridden miles. Ditch riding is hard on sleds.
Older ones can be mechanical a-holes. Powder snow, you are going to need a long track so you can stay on top the snow.
I used to want a sled but where I live most years I'd be lucky to get 4-6 weeks worth of decent snow to ride. Plus all I have is ditches and rivers to ride.
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My friends in Colorado used to run mostly Arctic Cat (the old "Panthers") and a few antique Ski-Doos. For many years that was there only means of transportation in the winter, before the county began plowing the road to their place. We used xc skis and a dog team, and never owned a snow machine ourselves.
Slushy snow is hell on snow machines. Sometimes they will clog up the tracks even while running, and you absolutely must clean out the tracks when you stop or else they will never move again until Spring or after a number of hours in a heated garage =(
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You need to know that globular warming will make your snow machine useless. :lol:
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My friends in Colorado used to run mostly Arctic Cat (the old "Panthers") and a few antique Ski-Doos. For many years that was there only means of transportation in the winter, before the county began plowing the road to their place. We used xc skis and a dog team, and never owned a snow machine ourselves.
Slushy snow is hell on snow machines. Sometimes they will clog up the tracks even while running, and you absolutely must clean out the tracks when you stop or else they will never move again until Spring or after a number of hours in a heated garage =(
Or until you bring out a propane Red Dragon and point it at the thing. Which is also a pain.
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Or until you bring out a propane Red Dragon and point it at the thing. Which is also a pain.
Smells like burning floppies, too :O
So ... you carry one of those big propane heaters on a trailer behind your machine everywhere you go ???
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Never buy a Rupp Nitro with 2-rotor Wankel rotary engine.
That is all. =D
(Dunno how I managed not to kill myself on that thing...)
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Smells like burning floppies, too :O
So ... you carry one of those big propane heaters on a trailer behind your machine everywhere you go ???
Well, no. I just meant if someone parked it outside stupidly, not cleaned, and the tracks froze up.
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The slush really wasn't much of a problem where we used to live in Colorado. Most of the time it was between 30 and 60 below zero.
It was usually only a problem in the springtime (May) in the afternoon, and one crazy time in March when it rained on top of three feet of snow.
stevelyn probably knows a lot about snow machines - I can't remember if he's on APS or just THR ??? He's probably out chasing a drunken indian on a snow machine right now ;)
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Lots of folks in Minnesota have gone to four wheelers. We have had years of bad snow. People got tired of their expensive machines sitting in the garage for 300+ days a year. People still buy and use snowmobiles, but sales are way down. We have a great trail system for sleds in the winter, and for mountain bikes in the summer. Lots of those trails are paved, and it's great on rollerblades as well.
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Call a couple of county sheriffs and find out what machines they use. That is if they buy them. Also check around with businesses that rent snowmobiles as a business.
The business owners and LE that buy machines are going to be fixated on reliability for the obvious reasons.
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Have good life insurance. =D I can name a few people who survived sprint cars but didn't survive racing snowmobiles on the same tracks in the winter.
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Watch the Winter X-Games on tv to learn how to ride them. The slogan of a real snowmachiner is "hold my beer and watch this". On a serious note, try renting a few to see which one speaks to you. When I lived in the UP of MI I never bought one. Over a 22 winter period, I worked outside in the winter. Sure did not want to go play in the snow after work.....chris3
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You need to know NOT to do this......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABCxU_UNZI0
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You need to know NOT to do this......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABCxU_UNZI0
The dude on the intro sounds just like me. It was weird to open it up and hear a voice similar to mine.
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The slush really wasn't much of a problem where we used to live in Colorado. Most of the time it was between 30 and 60 below zero.
It was usually only a problem in the springtime (May) in the afternoon, and one crazy time in March when it rained on top of three feet of snow.
stevelyn probably knows a lot about snow machines - I can't remember if he's on APS or just THR ??? He's probably out chasing a drunken indian on a snow machine right now ;)
=D =D
Tallpine........I'm in tears and my sides hurt right now.
I chased a few when I lived up on the Yukon, not so much out here in Aleutian Hell since the snow don't last long and there are only about three I'm aware of now. Our DUI vehicle of choice in AH is the 4-wheeler.
Snowmachines are a primary mode of winter travel further up the AKPEN and in the villages where it's colder.
Snowmachine preference for me is dependent on what I'm using it for. For trapping and work on tight trails and deep snow, nothing beats a one-lung Yamaha Bravo and it's powerful enough to tow a sled.
For traveling and general tooling around though I like Polaris. They seem easier to control and more comfortable. They are easy to start when the temperatures are colder than -20 F, and they run well at those low temps. I think Polaris tunes the fuel/air to compensate for the higher density of the colder temps because they seem to run a little rich when it gets above 20F. I'd go out and start mine and my GF's machine at -40F and it'd crank right over on the second pull and sit there and idle smoothly. Had to throw a tarp over it so the track could warm up though.
There isn't anything wrong with the other brands, but like anything else they have their quirks.
Arctic Cats don't like to run very well below -20F although EFI changes this because you don't have to deal with carburator jets. The brain box does the fuel/air.
On some of the faster ACs, I've felt like the machine wanted to fly away with me once I got up past 60 mph. Yamahas are fast, but they are heavy and get stuck easily on unbroken trails.
Most of the machines out in the Yukon/Koyukuk villages are Polaris followed by Yamaha and rounded out by Ski-Doos. I've seen very few ACs out there.
I have very little experience with Ski-Doo, but friends who have them swear by them. I've never heard of them being problematic.
If you are going to get a used machine make sure you check the sliderails on the suspension. These are plastic rails underneath that the track slides over as it turns. The snow acts as a lubricant when you're moving. That's why the comment was made about slush. Wet slushy snow doesn't work as well and you wear the rails out faster. Also the reason I prefer air-cooled engines to liquid cooled. Besides liquid cooled machines are heavier. Heavy machines are a bitch to unstick.
Make sure the drive wheel and clutch are in good shape as well as the drive belt and always carry spare belts and sparkplugs.
If you are going to be in deep, powdery snow, breaking trail or even wet snow, get a machine with a 136" or longer track I like the 144"s. You can also increase your floatation by putting a set of ski skins on the skis. They increase the width and length of the skis making for a bigger footprint which spreads the weight of the machine out better. Not an issue when under power, but if you stop in soft snow you won't sink and you can get moving again a lot easier without the track digging a hole to bury you in.
As far as engine size, I rode up and down the Yukon River on a 440 Sport Touring and never though I needed more power or speed. Even in rough ice and breaking trail. Plus once you get up past 500cc, you enter into the liquid-cooled realm. I could make a 223 mile trip on a tank of fuel. The new 4-strokes are probably even better if 4-stroke outboards are any indication.
Be aware that those things can kill and cripple ya quick. There are more folks than I care to count that I knew personally that were killed and seriously injured on them and from them mainly due to stupidity. Some of them I had to bag myself.
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Oh, and trying this is probably a bad idea
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP0C-jA0hfQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP0C-jA0hfQ)
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Heavy machines are a bitch to unstick.
Yeah - more than once I have stepped off into the semi-packed trail of a stuck machine, leaned down and heaved up on the back end, and promptly post-holed myself down into the snow up to my armpits :O
It's quit a chore to try to unstick a machine that is mostly over your head =(
My experience with snow machines was all back in the 1980s. Back then the (air-cooled) Arctic Cat Panther was pretty simple and easy to fix, which was a good thing since they seemed to be always breaking down. My friends used their machines pretty hard, though - since they were the only transportation for about five months of the year.
About 30 years ago, there was a little bluegrass band in Anchorage that wrote and sang a song about snowmachines called "The Arctic Crap" - mostly from a XC skiers perspective :laugh:
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Yeah - more than once I have stepped off into the semi-packed trail of a stuck machine, leaned down and heaved up on the back end, and promptly post-holed myself down into the snow up to my armpits
It's quit a chore to try to unstick a machine that is mostly over your head
Yup. Been there myself. It took me more than two hours to move a 440 Sport short-track 20 ft back to my track in snow up to my chest after I lost my momentum in a tight turn in an unbroken area off the trail. I learned three words that day..........."come-along" and "snowshoes".
The Panther and Bearcat were two of ACs better machines. The Panther just for being reliable and relatively simple. The Bearcat is a 156" tracked beast that can go nearly anywhere there's room to manuever it under any and all snow conditions.
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Watch out for ridges with peaks that look like soft serve ice cream... =D
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Anyone know what the X-time Alaska snow machine "First Dude" uses?
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Anyone know what the X-time Alaska snow machine "First Dude" uses?
He and his race partner have been using modified Arctic Cats.
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TCW:
No heated garage at my apartment. There is heated storage available not far out of town that can probably fit a full-size sled though. Monthly fee to consider, on the other hand. Chances are strong that it would be stored outside under a cover.
MW:
Sweeeet. How much?
Charby:
With the trail system here, finding even a well used sled in good shape is probable. Sledding season runs from late November/early December into March here. Having a sled would have been real nice with the ice storm that just hit us. Roads were just awful. We get something I call "sedimentary ice" that even studs and chains can slide on in the right situation. Dangerous stuff.
Tallpine:
Hopefully I won't deal with too much slush. I'm looking to use a sled as a tool rather than a toy so I should be able to stick to well-groomed trails to get just about anywhere I'd need to go. Here's hoping.
Tactipants:
Last year we got over 16 feet of globular warming so if we get globularly warmer it should be useless for the next several years. Ha ha.
MF and Tallpine:
What's the propane ritual like?
G98:
*Writes down "Rupp Nitro/2-rotor Wankel engine" with large red "X" through it*
Bald Guy:
Four wheelers would be more difficult to use here. A significant portion of our trail system is aimed for snow sleds and are groomed for such. Not sure what routes I'd use for winter four-wheeling. I don't know anything about winterizing a four-wheeler either.
Grampster:
Local law enforcement patrols the trail systems regularly inside and outside of town. Well outside of town. I'll take a look next time I stop to let them cross the street and get a lead.
French G:
The snow sledding horror stories are well highlighted in local papers every year. Nearly all of them involve alcohol. I plan on using the sled as a tool so I won't be exceeding 40mph more than a few times a month.
Copper Tales:
Mine will be for work and not play. With my current vehicle there are days that I won't be able to make it to work. With a sled I can still make it and make some much needed money.
Scout:
Ha ha ha. That is easy advice to follow!
Stevelyn:
How do you winterize a four-wheeler?
Thanks for all of the information. I've mostly been concentrating my research on Polaris and Ski-Doo. What do you think would be good for northern Maine out of their recent '08-'09 lineups?
I doubt I would need anything more than a 440. My only real experience on a sled is with a Ski-Doo MXZ440 and a Yamaha, the model and year of which I'm not sure of, but it was closer to the 600 region. At 5'8"-5'9" and 160-170 lbs I really prefer the 440. I'm not looking to outrun anyone and I'm not looking to put it to work on a ranch/farm either.
I've never been stuck on a sled either. Is the cure as blatantly annoying and straight-forward as it sounds?
Grisly:
How come? I don't have to worry about peaks so much as ridges, but they sound so fun. Will they be masking rocks and drop-offs?
Thanks for all the replies folks.
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MW:
Sweeeet. How much?
"If sir must ask the price, sir cannot afford it." ;)
Those are nice, but holycrap expensive, any I've seen. Only ones I've seen here are rescue stuff in the mountains.
Of course, I also saw someone bouncing around a hill on a Kettenkrad, which wasn't expected!
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Where do you go from there? Hovercraft? *Shrug*
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Stevelyn:
How do you winterize a four-wheeler?
Thanks for all of the information. I've mostly been concentrating my research on Polaris and Ski-Doo. What do you think would be good for northern Maine out of their recent '08-'09 lineups?
I doubt I would need anything more than a 440. My only real experience on a sled is with a Ski-Doo MXZ440 and a Yamaha, the model and year of which I'm not sure of, but it was closer to the 600 region. At 5'8"-5'9" and 160-170 lbs I really prefer the 440. I'm not looking to outrun anyone and I'm not looking to put it to work on a ranch/farm either.
I've never been stuck on a sled either. Is the cure as blatantly annoying and straight-forward as it sounds?
Not a lot can be done to winterize a 4-wheeler beyond making sure the coolant is mix is strong enough to keep it from freezing up at the lowest temperatures you're likely to encounter and going to lighter oil in the crankcase.
All of them are going to work well in Maine. Some better than others depending on conditions. You have to decide on the conditions you are going to be riding in. You don't need a 600 RMK mountain machine or 650 Summit if you are going to be running mostly conditioned or broken trails.
For what you're going to use it for, a sport machine in the 440-500cc range would fit your needs. A touring or sport touring machine with a 2-up seat if you are going to have a passenger. Me? I'd get the 2-up seat. I've picked up more women while on a snowmachine than I have in bars. But that's just me and that's another story. =D
Polaris used to make a 340 and Ski-Doo a 380 that would also work for what you want. I don't know if they are still in the line up though.
It's really going to come down to personal preference after heading out to a dealership and taking a look at them up close. There's really a lot to choose from. You may even decide to go a with something else completely different than what you had in mind.
Yes, if you get stuck in deep, unbroken powder, it's going to be a bitch getting it unstuck and positioned to where you can start moving again. Having a lot of suspension travel (10" or more) helps.
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Well, never did a snowmobile, but I grew up on a farm that operated in the winter. Gitcherself a stout come-along and some extra cable with good stout dealies to cinch stuff together. Or chain. Chain packs tight, and is pretty strong. But it's heavy.
If you're going to be riding in a place that gets environmentally conscious folks, put a vertical bar in front of the windshield, and keep your head under it... Every so often, idjits string barb-wire at about neck height "to teach us a lesson."