Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on February 27, 2008, 12:33:10 PM
Post by: Manedwolf on February 27, 2008, 12:42:17 PM
What are they accused of, any news elsewhere? I thought they just made receivers and stuff?
Post by: Manedwolf on February 27, 2008, 12:50:43 PM
Quote
A Gilbert business was raided by federal officials Wednesday on suspicion of fraud and money laundering.
Officials say Calvary Gun Manufacturing was the target of the search and seizure warrant.
The business is near Copper and Guadalupe roads.
Its unclear what officers from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms took from the business or if anyone was arrested.
http://www.abc15.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=f1170d80-1741-43e5-8000-d685e0c72b29Officials say Calvary Gun Manufacturing was the target of the search and seizure warrant.
The business is near Copper and Guadalupe roads.
Its unclear what officers from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms took from the business or if anyone was arrested.
CAVALRY, not Calvary! We're in Idiocracy, I swear. And fraud? Why is BATFE involved? Isn't that FBI?
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on February 27, 2008, 12:51:41 PM
Post by: Manedwolf on February 27, 2008, 12:58:16 PM
Doubt they'd clean up or even apologize.
Post by: Barbara on February 27, 2008, 01:15:44 PM
Post by: Harold Tuttle on February 27, 2008, 05:39:02 PM
Quote
Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
Minor update
Russ just called me.
No one is in custody and no charges have been filed.
ATF is apparently looking for something but no one has any idea what.
The shop is trashed from what they can see. They have not been allowed back in yet. ATF is still there taking inventory.
Minor update
Russ just called me.
No one is in custody and no charges have been filed.
ATF is apparently looking for something but no one has any idea what.
The shop is trashed from what they can see. They have not been allowed back in yet. ATF is still there taking inventory.
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on February 27, 2008, 06:07:38 PM
Post by: Bigjake on February 27, 2008, 06:13:05 PM
call me when y'all light the torches and man the pitchforks.
Post by: Matthew Carberry on February 27, 2008, 06:38:22 PM
"USG Strikes!"
Post by: Tuco on February 27, 2008, 06:47:39 PM
They even put up those picnic shelters to keep the hot sun off 'em.
Wow.
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on February 27, 2008, 08:19:44 PM
update from ARF.com:
And that was the entire point. Trash the shop, interrupt business, strike fear into hearts.
Quote
Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
Minor update
Russ just called me.
No one is in custody and no charges have been filed.
ATF is apparently looking for something but no one has any idea what.
The shop is trashed from what they can see. They have not been allowed back in yet. ATF is still there taking inventory.
Minor update
Russ just called me.
No one is in custody and no charges have been filed.
ATF is apparently looking for something but no one has any idea what.
The shop is trashed from what they can see. They have not been allowed back in yet. ATF is still there taking inventory.
Post by: Manedwolf on February 27, 2008, 08:38:59 PM
Not like they'd pay a cent for stuff they damaged.
Also: Be warned, this local news video will probably make you very, very angry. Click on "Shocking video linked to Valley gun raid" in the article URL below.
Quote
Hundreds of gun, from high powered rifles to handguns, were seized this morning from a Gilbert gun business. Agents with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms descended upon Cavalry Arms Corporation.
http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/articles/atfgunseizure022708-CR.html
Wow! A gun maker had hundreds of "high powered rifles" on site? Also, that news site is showing Cavalry Arms' spoof "Jihad Strikes!" commercial to prove that they're "violent anti-Muslim terrorists" or something. They even have an "Islamic expert" from CAIR comment on it. What the HELL?!
From arf:
Quote
It seems that one of our local TV news stations went digging for info about Cav Arms and found that video, then went screaming to CAIR for an opinion.
BATFE makes me want to throw up, and the media does too. This makes me angry in about ten different ways.
Post by: Matthew Carberry on February 27, 2008, 09:58:54 PM
Post by: Manedwolf on February 27, 2008, 10:00:14 PM
The jihad strikes video is pretty careful to use the term "extremists". It's actually pretty PC.
That doesn't matter to the media, obviously. They went and bawww'ed to CAIR to come denounce it.
Post by: nico on February 27, 2008, 10:22:16 PM
The jihad strikes video is pretty careful to use the term "extremists". It's actually pretty PC.
That doesn't matter to the media, obviously. They went and bawww'ed to CAIR to come denounce it.
CAIR is way down on my list of "opinions I give a rat's ass about." They're the Muslim equivalent of the NAACP: they're attention whores who blow anything politically incorrect way out of proportion and cry racism every chance they get.
edit: Some of the comments by the neighbors are pretty obnoxious. Since, the ATF showed up, they must be guilty. After all, the ATF would never raid a gun shop unless they did something wrong
Post by: SomeKid on February 27, 2008, 11:13:41 PM
The jihad strikes video is pretty careful to use the term "extremists". It's actually pretty PC.
That doesn't matter to the media, obviously. They went and bawww'ed to CAIR to come denounce it.
CAIR is way down on my list of "opinions I give a rat's ass about." They're the Muslim equivalent of the NAACP: they're attention whores who blow anything politically incorrect way out of proportion and cry racism every chance they get.
edit: Some of the comments by the neighbors are pretty obnoxious. Since, the ATF showed up, they must be guilty. After all, the ATF would never raid a gun shop unless they did something wrong
Don't know if I can agree with your equation. The NAACP was founded back when blacks were oppressed, and had (at one time) good ideals. It has since become worthless. CAIR on the other hand has been a front group for Islamic terrorists, and every CAIR member deserves to be executed for it.
I would say the NAACP is like the KKK (both are racial hate groups), and CAIR is like the SDS, (both openly undermine the country).
Moving back on topic, if Cavalry Arms is innocent (I bet they are, but I don't know squat) can't they sue for damages if the ATF hurts/kills their business, smears their name, and damages their goods?
Post by: stevelyn on February 28, 2008, 03:10:34 AM
Post by: HankB on February 28, 2008, 04:08:01 AM
The jihad strikes video is pretty careful to use the term "extremists". It's actually pretty PC.
That doesn't matter to the media, obviously. They went and bawww'ed to CAIR to come denounce it.
Post by: Manedwolf on February 28, 2008, 04:40:27 AM
Quote
Dozens of guns could be seen being organized and moved by agents with the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives during the afternoon outside the Cavalry Arms Corp. near Cooper and Guadalupe roads.
ATF agents spent hours executing a federal search warrant there, but agency spokesman Thomas Mangan declined to say what prompted the seizure of what he called a large quantity of weapons.
By no means is that any indication of any type of guilt, Mangan said.
Still, every gun that was at the business on Wednesday was confiscated in the raid, he said.
ATF agents spent hours executing a federal search warrant there, but agency spokesman Thomas Mangan declined to say what prompted the seizure of what he called a large quantity of weapons.
By no means is that any indication of any type of guilt, Mangan said.
Still, every gun that was at the business on Wednesday was confiscated in the raid, he said.
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/110061
Also, the BATFE apparently outsources JBTs now.
Quote
TAKING INVENTORY: Members of the ATF and a contractor branch, Forfeiture Support Associates, sort through piles of arms seized from Cavalry Arms Corp. in Gilbert on Wednesday.
Forfeiture Support Associates? So if your stuff gets broken when they trash your shop, it's no longer BATFE's fault?
Post by: The Rabbi on February 28, 2008, 04:47:41 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on February 28, 2008, 04:53:58 AM
AFAIK, you don't need to trash a place to inventory the guns or even seize them.
Add to that that if anyone had their gun being worked on by Cavalry, it's apparently now in ATF custody, good luck getting that back.
Post by: 280plus on February 28, 2008, 05:25:31 AM
http://www.ctd.uscourts.gov/Opinions/090104.JCH.Outlaws.pdf
I believe if they come up clean they can get compensation, but don't quote me.
They have a forum at their website, not much posted except a lot of words of support. Some talk about a disgruntled EX partner whos now in prison for similar charges of money laundering and fraud. Prevailing thought is that he's fingering Cavalry to get his own sentence lightened. Just type in Cavalry Arms and read up. I forgot to copy the link.
Post by: Manedwolf on February 28, 2008, 05:30:27 AM
Post by: 280plus on February 28, 2008, 05:37:05 AM
Post by: roo_ster on February 28, 2008, 06:46:33 AM
Even from the video seen on the news, they turned the place completely upside-down. Judgment reserved or not, that seemed completely uncalled for. They were making no effort to handle the merchandise carefully, and a lot of it is probably damaged.
AFAIK, you don't need to trash a place to inventory the guns or even seize them.
Add to that that if anyone had their gun being worked on by Cavalry, it's apparently now in ATF custody, good luck getting that back.
AFAIK, you don't need to trash a place to inventory the guns or even seize them.
Add to that that if anyone had their gun being worked on by Cavalry, it's apparently now in ATF custody, good luck getting that back.
In the service, I managed to do required serial number inventories without trashing the place. But, then, I was the only one in the room professional enough to handle an inventory...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mhIJOVD8hwY
BATF JBTs are obviously incompetent to do what I and a bunch of 18YO high-school graduates were capable of doing.
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on February 28, 2008, 07:16:28 AM
Forfeiture Support Associates?
Anybody get vibes from Unintended Consequences from this picture?
These women look as confused and helpless in front of those firearms as is described by John Ross in a particular chapter where an ATF agent comes to inspect a man's machine gun collection while knowing absolutely anything about the guns at all... ends up pointing the gun at the owner with her finger on the trigger.
I support Cavalry Arms in this matter until I hear actual charges and see them presented in court. Seems to me a warrant to search should include specific allegations and materials that would be found to support those allegations. Seizure of property should result in an arrest or charges filed.
I bet some of those confiscated weapons end up in an ATF lab and gerry-rigged to bump fire, resulting in machine gun charges.
Post by: Oleg Volk on February 28, 2008, 08:20:24 AM
Post by: The Rabbi on February 28, 2008, 09:23:31 AM
I support Cavalry Arms in this matter until I hear actual charges and see them presented in court. Seems to me a warrant to search should include specific allegations and materials that would be found to support those allegations. Seizure of property should result in an arrest or charges filed.
BATFE does not need a warrant to search, since they license the business. They have the power to come in and search any time, for any reason in a criminal investigation.
Post by: Manedwolf on February 28, 2008, 09:31:53 AM
And destroy?
Because they sure as hell did. Seized all their firearms, lowers and finished rifles including customers' rifles in for service, their computers (what are they going to do accounting on? Where's their financial spreadsheets?), and they made a complete mess of their shop, too. It's obvious from the video shown that a whole lot of new, expensive inventory has been damaged by throwing it around like some insurgent arms cache they found, and BATFE is not known for storing things properly. They pretty much ruined their business, and have not even said what they're accused of.
Which makes me think they likely went in with a blank to fill in later, in hopes of finding something. I wouldn't put it past BATFE at all. They're just the descendants of the old prohibition barrel-smashers. They even brought a huge truck and private "forfeiture associates" from the start, they knew they were going to take it all away.
Maybe some of the seized rifles belonged to LEOs. That might be interesting. They might see things from the "we the people" perspective against BATFE.
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on February 28, 2008, 10:31:11 AM
Post by: Sergeant Bob on February 28, 2008, 10:41:50 AM
Quote
Forfeiture Support Associates?
They probably hire the people rejected by the TSA.
I wonder who's palms are getting greased to get that contract?
Post by: Bogie on February 28, 2008, 01:01:38 PM
Any customers had better get darn ready to lawyer up.
Post by: Balog on February 28, 2008, 01:04:35 PM
Post by: Manedwolf on February 28, 2008, 01:19:37 PM
I wonder how many customer rifles are going to have the 20" uppers go missing, and have 14.5" uppers magically appear on 'em...
Any customers had better get darn ready to lawyer up.
Any customers had better get darn ready to lawyer up.
You think anyone at all is going to get a gun BACK from BATFE's damp storage lockers?
Post by: Harold Tuttle on February 28, 2008, 02:41:28 PM
Their Bushmaster plant is in AZ too...
Post by: Harold Tuttle on February 28, 2008, 02:50:11 PM
Post by: MechAg94 on February 28, 2008, 03:32:21 PM
Post by: Lee on February 28, 2008, 04:05:49 PM
I'll agree with The Rabbi, and take a wait and see attitude.
Unless I'm looking at a different video, I fail to see any inventory bashing or trashing. It looks like they set up tables (some covered even) to make sorting through the inventory easier...and faster.
A similar thing happened here during the Clinton years. The ATF simply took everything without pressing any charges and made the owner go to court to get it back....obviously hoping the owner would fail financially in the process. A lot of customers loaned her money, but she did eventually relocate and go under.
If the ATF is just messing with them, I would gladly contribute a few bucks to help them out.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on February 28, 2008, 04:48:45 PM
Post by: Bigjake on February 28, 2008, 05:17:57 PM
Quote
Anybody get vibes from Unintended Consequences from this picture?
These women look as confused and helpless in front of those firearms as is described by John Ross in a particular chapter where an ATF agent comes to inspect a man's machine gun collection while knowing absolutely anything about the guns at all... ends up pointing the gun at the owner with her finger on the trigger.
uh huh. Racist black chick with 4" long fingernails??
Is Janet Reno a recent hire or something??
Post by: Bogie on February 28, 2008, 08:15:13 PM
Media opportunity, same as Waco, but with folks who wouldn't shoot back.
Post by: LAK on February 28, 2008, 10:46:48 PM
Quote
Forfeiture Support Associates
Welcome to a closer, more caring, corporate-government under the "public-private partnership".The "public-private partnership" was first openly flaunted by none other than William Clinton; note that G W Bush, in almost two terms of Office, despite a very ripe period with a "republican" majority in Congress, has done or said absolutely nothing about this outrage.
Quote
A similar thing happened here during the Clinton years. The ATF simply took everything without pressing any charges and made the owner go to court to get it back....obviously hoping the owner would fail financially in the process. A lot of customers loaned her money, but she did eventually relocate and go under.
Yes; familiar m/o. here. This pattern ought to be enough; if we do not get someone in the WH that will bring this tax collection agency to heel they will continue to do this until the number of dealers is substantially reduced. I watched this happen in the U.K. during the 1970s and 80s.
It is a deliberate war of attrition.
G W Bush knows exactly what they are doing and is hence fully complicit as the agency falls under him and is ultimately subject to Executive Order, directives etc. And what has he done in nearly two terms about this outrage? Absolutely nothing.
Cast your vote carefully; or you can watch all this continue for another four years at least. Get another fake in the WH like George and the things that differentiate our nation from most others are going to vanish in similar fashion.
------------------------------------
http://searchronpaul.com
http://ussliberty.org/oldindex.html
http://www.gtr5.com
http://ssunitedstates.org
Post by: vernal45 on February 28, 2008, 11:28:33 PM
Post by: 280plus on February 29, 2008, 02:48:12 AM
Quote
gotta be real careful who you partner with
That ain't no lie! Copied this from their forum:
They only have 1 computer at this point, and are trying hard to figure out what is left and what has been taken.
They have not been able to read the forum just yet, and I've spoken to Christian about 4 times today, and I went ahead and placed an order for a bunch of handgaurds, slings, and speed pins - whatever I could afford to send some cash their way.
They are hurting, and still in shock about whats happened over there.
Guys, if you can, get a few people together and place a large order. They will ship what they have and you will only be charged for what actually ships.
Russ, if you are reading this anytime soon, I hope you do well, and THANK YOU for all the great customer support you've shown.
I am a loyal CAV-Arms customer and I'll stick with you during this time!
-Jason
Post by: Perd Hapley on February 29, 2008, 05:27:09 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on February 29, 2008, 05:30:06 AM
I always thought the Jihad Strikes video was making light of the threat of Islamic terrorism. There's definitely no hatred, bigotry, or anything of the sort going on there.
Agreed, and really, it was the CAIR dork who for some reason equated the lampooned jihadists with "all Muslims". I would think that Muslims would take him to task for that!
Post by: mustanger98 on February 29, 2008, 05:52:21 AM
I always thought the Jihad Strikes video was making light of the threat of Islamic terrorism. There's definitely no hatred, bigotry, or anything of the sort going on there.
Agreed, and really, it was the CAIR dork who for some reason equated the lampooned jihadists with "all Muslims". I would think that Muslims would take him to task for that!
They should take him to task for that. That don't mean they will. I do agree though that the CAIR guy is a dork and he gave himself that dubious honor.
Post by: Harold Tuttle on February 29, 2008, 06:04:26 AM
This is a special run of Cav-15 MKII receivers. These will be engraved "Cav-Aid 2008" on the side of the magwell. Given Cavalry Arms stellar position in the shooting community and their current troubles, were going to help infuse them with some $$$. This is sort of like a bake sale for firearm enthusiast. In the firearms industry your inventory is your working capitol and all of theirs has been taken. They essentially have to start their company all over from scratch, with no working capitol. Their primary vendor has cut them off net 30 terms and put them on COD, so were helping them out with that. Everyone wants to help and this is the best idea we had. The proceeds of these sales are going to CavArms so they can get back on their feet. AGP Arms is just fronting the money and handling the transfers, profits are going to CavArms. Please buy a few, you know these are a great item to stock up on and what a great cause.
Important notes about these receivers- They will not be assembled, that just means you have to screw the buttplate on yourself. And you will also need to trim the flash along the seams yourself with a razor knife. Both these steps are very simple to do and will really help the Cav guys to get them out the door fast.
See www.cavalryarms.com for specific product information.
No sales where prohibited by law.
FAX signed copy of FFL to 480-671-5665
$125 Black only for right now
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on February 29, 2008, 06:57:00 AM
He's in the fed pokey with a release date of August 2008. Ameetec is just down the street about 2 miles from Cavalry Arms... I bought my CAV-15 lower from Ameetec about 3-4 months ago. If my dim fuzzy memory serves, it was from a guy named Warren.
Anyone know what he did to get in the pokey? I tried a net search and all I came up with was blog speculation that Mee was trying to bargain his sentence down by throwing Cavalry to the wolves.
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on February 29, 2008, 07:42:24 AM
Back in August or September or so (can't remember exactly), Ameetec was having a great sale on CAV-15 lowers. I took a spin down there and picked one up, and I bought it from Warren.
I'm hearing rumors that Warren Mee is now in the Fed Pokey. I can't find out what for, but I did come across one bad business dealing where it appears he stole a prototype receiver from another manufacturer, SBR'd it and set it to full auto as a police demo.
http://www.arfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288&page=4
That particular issue appears to be fixed up, but I can't find out exactly what he did to end up in the slammer (of it he is indeed in prison at all).
Searching for his name on ARFCOM comes up with user id # 47221, but his screen name is asterisked out:
http://ar15.com/member/member.html?id=47221
Last post date is August 5th, 2007.
I'm wondering if he is turning rat (or making something up) in order to get out of jail early.
Post by: Harold Tuttle on February 29, 2008, 08:04:29 AM
Locate a Federal Inmate(includes all inmates from 1982 to present)
Name Register
Number Age Race Sex Release Date Actual / Projected Location
1. WARREN HENRY MEE 35176-013 36 Asian M 08-09-2008 LA TUNA FCI
FYI:
http://www.political-times.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=528
http://www.alacrastore.com/storecontent/dnb2/127933054
http://www.arfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288&page=3
Post by: Bogie on February 29, 2008, 08:40:24 AM
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on February 29, 2008, 08:47:33 AM
Post by: Harold Tuttle on February 29, 2008, 09:17:34 AM
Address: 723 W Commerce Ave A
Gilbert, Arizona USA 85233-4316
Telephone: 0001 - (480) 505-0210
Business Description: Mortgage Broker
Falcon Creek Mortgage
723 W Commerce Ave A
Gilbert, Arizona 85233
Mortgage Brokers
(480) 505-0210
Calvary Arms Corp
Company Calvary Arms Corp
Address 723 W Commerce Ste A
Gilbert, AZ 85233
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on February 29, 2008, 09:38:13 AM
CavArms and Falcon Creek addresses are the same.
Is there a date on the source of that information? I'm wondering if Falcon Creek is out of business and defunct since Mee was put in prison last year.
Post by: nico on February 29, 2008, 01:21:54 PM
Post by: The Rabbi on March 01, 2008, 03:03:40 PM
Post by: De Selby on March 01, 2008, 03:52:06 PM
The jihad strikes video is pretty careful to use the term "extremists". It's actually pretty PC.
That doesn't matter to the media, obviously. They went and bawww'ed to CAIR to come denounce it.
CAIR is way down on my list of "opinions I give a rat's ass about." They're the Muslim equivalent of the NAACP: they're attention whores who blow anything politically incorrect way out of proportion and cry racism every chance they get.
edit: Some of the comments by the neighbors are pretty obnoxious. Since, the ATF showed up, they must be guilty. After all, the ATF would never raid a gun shop unless they did something wrong
Don't know if I can agree with your equation. The NAACP was founded back when blacks were oppressed, and had (at one time) good ideals. It has since become worthless. CAIR on the other hand has been a front group for Islamic terrorists, and every CAIR member deserves to be executed for it.
I would say the NAACP is like the KKK (both are racial hate groups), and CAIR is like the SDS, (both openly undermine the country).
Moving back on topic, if Cavalry Arms is innocent (I bet they are, but I don't know squat) can't they sue for damages if the ATF hurts/kills their business, smears their name, and damages their goods?
Every CAIR member gets the death penalty via membership in an organization!?
Wow...just wow.
Oh the irony....gun owners lamenting the "well, the cops got them and there were guns, so they must be guilty" attitude and then turning around to say "well, they's members of that moosleem group, so they's deserves a hangin'"
Post by: Bogie on March 01, 2008, 03:56:22 PM
Ain't like the video has the lady shooting up a church...
Post by: Manedwolf on March 01, 2008, 03:59:39 PM
I thunk it was interesting that the CAIR guy immediately decided that the guys wearing masks, and waving AKs, and looking like a buncha, well, jihad nutjobs, were to be described by him as only "muslims."
Ain't like the video has the lady shooting up a church...
Ain't like the video has the lady shooting up a church...
That doesn't surprise me, being that CAIR has nothing to do with peaceful moderate Muslims and has everything to do with holding the door open for extremists. It has exactly three purposes.
1. Funnel funds to terrorist groups.
2. Chill discussion and stop dialogue about terrorist acts, intimidate those who report suspicious activities via lawsuits.
3. Lay the groundwork.
Nothing CAIR does surprises me. The only thing that surprises me about CAIR is why they're permitted to operate on our soil.
Post by: Nitrogen on March 01, 2008, 04:28:03 PM
That doesn't surprise me, being that CAIR has nothing to do with peaceful moderate Muslims and has everything to do with holding the door open for extremists. It has exactly three purposes.
1. Funnel funds to terrorist groups.
2. Chill discussion and stop dialogue about terrorist acts, intimidate those who report suspicious activities via lawsuits.
3. Lay the groundwork.
Nothing CAIR does surprises me. The only thing that surprises me about CAIR is why they're permitted to operate on our soil.
I'm asking this out of total ignorance of what cair is and does.
what/how do they xfer funds to terrorists, and "lay the groundwork" for what exactly?
Post by: drewtam on March 01, 2008, 04:34:56 PM
I'm asking this out of total ignorance of what cair is and does.
what/how do they xfer funds to terrorists, and "lay the groundwork" for what exactly?
Here's a start...what/how do they xfer funds to terrorists, and "lay the groundwork" for what exactly?
http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20071121/NATION/111210046/1002/NATION
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/394
They try to front themselves as a [cultural] bridge building organization, and defender of Muslim human rights. Read the links and judge for yourself.
Post by: Manedwolf on March 01, 2008, 04:39:35 PM
Remember the "Flying Imams" case, when there were threats to sue the passengers who reported suspicious activities? Guess who was behind that?
Quote
But recently, and for at least the third time, federal prosecutors have called out CAIR as part of a covert Muslim Brotherhood effort in the United States. First, CAIR was named an unindicted co-conspirator in the Hamas-support trial of the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development. CAIR was listed among "entities who are and/or were members of the US Muslim Brotherhood's Palestine Committee." Then, when the group petitioned to remove its name from that list, prosecutors said such relief "will not prevent its conspiratorial involvement with HLF, and others affiliated with Hamas, from becoming a matter of public record."
Now, in a federal court filing from December, federal prosecutors have described CAIR as "having conspired with other affiliates of the Muslim Brotherhood to support terrorists." The government also stated that "proof that the conspirators used deception to conceal from the American public their connections to terrorists was introduced" in the Dallas Holy Land Foundation trial last year and the Chicago trial of the Hamas men in 2006.
Now, in a federal court filing from December, federal prosecutors have described CAIR as "having conspired with other affiliates of the Muslim Brotherhood to support terrorists." The government also stated that "proof that the conspirators used deception to conceal from the American public their connections to terrorists was introduced" in the Dallas Holy Land Foundation trial last year and the Chicago trial of the Hamas men in 2006.
http://www.foxbusiness.com/article/record-government-reminds-court-cair2fmas-ties-terrorists-says-investigative_466898_1.html
Basically, if you make a peep about anything to do with extremist Islam in the US, CAIR will send its lawyers after you. If you make something like this "jihad strikes!" film, they'll be after you, but if a terrorist attack happens...you'll hear crickets. Watch what the guy did in the video, it's their standard method of operation. Any discussion of extremist threats results in context-twisting equivocation that it's "anti-muslim", the leftist media headbobbles and says "that's obviously racist!", and the discussion is ended. Over and over, they do this.
That's what I mean by "laying the groundwork". They have a chilling effect on any serious discussion of threats, and it's absolutely their agenda to do so. They are indeed a fifth column operating within the US.
And the leftist media loves them.
Post by: Bigjake on March 01, 2008, 06:27:51 PM
Post by: Bogie on March 01, 2008, 06:45:59 PM
You know, just had an idea that the feebs should look into...
Keep a general tracker on these guys... Something that if they get on an interstate flight, and their passport gets used, it trips... If enough of 'em bug out of the country at one time, something nasty is supposed to happen...
Post by: De Selby on March 01, 2008, 08:54:38 PM
I'm asking this out of total ignorance of what cair is and does.
what/how do they xfer funds to terrorists, and "lay the groundwork" for what exactly?
Here's a start...what/how do they xfer funds to terrorists, and "lay the groundwork" for what exactly?
http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20071121/NATION/111210046/1002/NATION
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/394
They try to front themselves as a [cultural] bridge building organization, and defender of Muslim human rights. Read the links and judge for yourself.
Links to papers just like the ones that described all the "dangerous assault weapons" and "arsenal" type caches found by Federal police?
Yeah, the irony continues. Citing MSM articles to prove a point in the very same thread where everyone is bashing the MSM for bias and not even getting names right.
Don't let the obvious double standard bother you folks. CAIR-bash away.
Post by: Manedwolf on March 01, 2008, 08:59:12 PM
It's not even a MAYBE anymore. The whole freaking justice department knows! The ties to the Muslim Brotherhood, the ties to Hamas, they're all fact! Give it up!
Post by: De Selby on March 01, 2008, 09:09:40 PM
And shootinstudent is right on time to defend their beloved terrorist front group CAIR.
It's not even a MAYBE anymore. The whole freaking justice department knows! The ties to the Muslim Brotherhood, the ties to Hamas, they're all fact! Give it up!
It's not even a MAYBE anymore. The whole freaking justice department knows! The ties to the Muslim Brotherhood, the ties to Hamas, they're all fact! Give it up!
Oh yes-the same Justice Department that runs the ATF, whose accusations cannot be trusted, absolutely must be believed if it claims terrorism.
Right?
The irony is spine-breaking. You hit all three of the very same things that you started out lambasting when applied to gun owners-
1. Stereotype-wrong when people stereotype certain guns as "assault weapons" and therefore dangerous. But perfectly okay to let stereotypes run wild if it's about CAIR/Muslims.
2. Media reporting-absolutely wrong, doesn't even get the names right, when it comes to reporting gun seizures and ATF assaults. But must be accepted without question if it reports something bad about Muslims.
3. Justice department allegations-totally blown out of proportion and to be distrusted if levied against Cavalry arms or other victims of the ATF/DOJ.....but if the DOJ alleges something about CAIR (which it didn't really-but hey, we're accepting any media report as true for Muslims right?), it must be a fact, because "the whole freaking justice department knows!"...unlike with gun crime, where apparently the infallible knowledge of the DOJ becomes suspect.
I really want to know, Manedwolf-how do you do it? Contradictions like this would drive me nuts...what is it that lets you look with so much skepticism at media and government allegations when guns are on the table, but that makes you into a yes-man when the subject happens to be Muslim?
Is it just that you need for the DOJ to accuse Muslims of gun crime for you to take a hard look at the accusations, but any other kind of allegation is true? Or what?
Post by: Bogie on March 01, 2008, 09:43:23 PM
So, following on this, I should assume that "muslims" generally wear masks to conceal their identity, and wave AK-47s in a menacing fashion?
In fact, the video refers to the bad guys as "islamic extremists." Not "muslims" like the CAIR guy did.
So, who is more in touch with reality? Or are "muslims" normally just thugs?
Post by: De Selby on March 01, 2008, 09:57:45 PM
Okay... Explain to me why the CAIR talking head, when he saw the video, referred to the obviously armed, obviously masked, obviously bad-guy thugs, as "muslims" rather than "terrorists?"
So, following on this, I should assume that "muslims" generally wear masks to conceal their identity, and wave AK-47s in a menacing fashion?
In fact, the video refers to the bad guys as "islamic extremists." Not "muslims" like the CAIR guy did.
So, who is more in touch with reality? Or are "muslims" normally just thugs?
So, following on this, I should assume that "muslims" generally wear masks to conceal their identity, and wave AK-47s in a menacing fashion?
In fact, the video refers to the bad guys as "islamic extremists." Not "muslims" like the CAIR guy did.
So, who is more in touch with reality? Or are "muslims" normally just thugs?
Probably because the CAIR guy rightly realized that many people, like manedwolf, hold all Muslims responsible for terrorism. So whatever the video maker intended, there are folks who will watch it and say "Ah, just like them muslims to do this stuff! they's all responsible!"
Identifying these people by their religion leads to a trend of holding the whole religion responsible. This is an obvious point, as you can see from all the media articles following mass shootings that cry out "gun owner, gun fanatic, fascinated with guns" etc etc are designed to imply that somehow the killings were connected to gun ownership, even without explicitly sayin so.
Post by: mustanger98 on March 01, 2008, 10:05:55 PM
And shootinstudent is right on time to defend their beloved terrorist front group CAIR.
It's not even a MAYBE anymore. The whole freaking justice department knows! The ties to the Muslim Brotherhood, the ties to Hamas, they're all fact! Give it up!
It's not even a MAYBE anymore. The whole freaking justice department knows! The ties to the Muslim Brotherhood, the ties to Hamas, they're all fact! Give it up!
Call it conspiracy theory or whatever, but considering the way TSA and a couple of other outfits act towards muslims and/or arabs in general, it looks like DOJ may not only know, but they could also be in on it. Who knows how much truth is in that aside from DOJ, CAIR, Hamas, etc.
Post by: Strings on March 01, 2008, 11:24:09 PM
IF, as is suspected, the ATF raid was because of allegations made by the former partner of Cav Arms owner, then the raid is justified. Heavy-handed, yes. But I don't think the ATF HAS any other tool than the hammer (just various sizes thereof).
And honestly, the right thing for the CAIR talking head to have said was "This is not representative of all Muslims". NOT immediately started crying about racism, or what-have-you. protesting innocence too much?
And SS, you're reaching the point of being ignored: ANY time there's something that MIGHT put some Muslims in a bad light (wether deserved or not), you leap in to the defence. Makes you look foolish (or, as some here say, a CAIR plant). I'm willing to trust the Justice Department if they say they've got evidence of connections between terrorist organizations and CAIR, until they're proven wrong...
Post by: The Rabbi on March 02, 2008, 04:03:24 AM
There seems to be thread drift here. I dont know why ATF raided the company. I do know that in general companies have pretty fair warning this sort of thing is coming. While ATF, like any other organization, sometimes over-reacts, in general they are concerned with doing the right thing, at least as they see it.
I will reserve judgement on what happened until I see more.
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 02, 2008, 04:59:44 AM
Quote
And honestly, the right thing for the CAIR talking head to have said was "This is not representative of all Muslims". NOT immediately started crying about racism, or what-have-you. protesting innocence too much?
No, he should have said, "Why did you bother me with this stuff? I don't have time to watch every little silly YouTube that references militant jihadists."
Post by: Bogie on March 02, 2008, 07:16:56 AM
I'm gonna need a lot more ammo... And maybe a CAV-15...
Post by: Nitrogen on March 02, 2008, 08:33:19 AM
Two of the stories on the front page are about Jews. That strikes me as odd, why a muslim advocacy group would advocate for Jews.
It gives me the impression that the thing is just for show. Why the heck would Muslims give a hoot about Jewish basketball players asked to play games on the sabbath? Now I'm not a super observant Jew (as I actually work on the sabbath and should be put to death) but I'm actually not aware that playing a game is a violation of Sabbath. My dad used to play checkers with his father on the sabbath all the time, so I dont know what.
Post by: Manedwolf on March 02, 2008, 08:53:42 AM
Probably because the CAIR guy rightly realized that many people, like manedwolf, hold all Muslims responsible for terrorism. So whatever the video maker intended, there are folks who will watch it and say "Ah, just like them muslims to do this stuff! they's all responsible!"
Well, actually, I hadn't. I thought extremists were extremists, but most Muslims were just peaceful sorts who maybe need to speak up a little more in denouncing the extremists, lest the wildfire keep spreading.
But you've cleared it up for me! Obviously I was wrong, and as the CAIR representative said, Muslims are people who wave AKs around and attack things.
Thanks for making that clearer!
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on March 02, 2008, 09:19:45 AM
Post by: Strings on March 03, 2008, 08:58:03 PM
Post by: K Frame on March 03, 2008, 09:09:50 PM
CAIR? NAACP? KKK? Executing people for membership in an organization (NRA Life Members go straight to the gas chambers, annual members go to the torture chambers and then the gas chambers)?
I swear to God I am going to go Eric Cartman on a bunch of you and kick you squah in da nutz.