Author Topic: SIG ARs...  (Read 996 times)

K Frame

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SIG ARs...
« on: July 18, 2022, 07:01:14 AM »
So, my nephew is thinking about buying an AR.

He's looking at a bunch of different options, doing his research. Approaching it correctly. I've given him some guidance, but I'm not really an AR guy.

One of the options that he's strongly considering is a SIG Elite.

My only concern with that is if SIG, in its desire to own the souls of the people who purchase its products, has loaded it with proprietary, non-interchangeable parts that cost 4 to 6 times normal tare from anyone else.

Anyone know if the Elites are true AR-15 platforms with interchangeable parts?
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dogmush

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Re: SIG ARs...
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2022, 09:29:03 AM »
IIRC correctly the M400 Elite had an enlarged trigger guard, ambi-safety, and an enlarged bolt release, but other than that was pretty bog standard AR.

but........

It's Sig, so it's been discontinued.  The new Sig AR hotness according to their website is the M400 "tread".  Which seems to be a pseudo Gasden themed series of guns.  Their M400 flavors are still DI AR pattern guns but I saw a couple of proprietary Ambi Bolt catches and mag releases, so it's a non standard lower too, at least on those models.


My 2 cents, which your Nephew neither asked nor paid for, is while Sig makes some nice guns, their AR's are pretty basic AR pattern guns with right around $1000  price tags for the "mid level" variants.  If you want to spend around a grand on an AR, and don't already know what you want, just get a BCM M4 Mod 0.  It'll be a significant step up in build, parts, and reliability over any M400, it just won't say Sig on it.

Lennyjoe

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Re: SIG ARs...
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2022, 09:29:59 AM »
Not sure about the Sig AR’s but that’s the beauty of the rifle itself.  To be able to customize to your liking is what sells the AR.

If that’s the case with the Sig, I’d definitely pass on it for a more accessory friendly profile.

Lennyjoe

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Re: SIG ARs...
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2022, 09:32:37 AM »
Hell, you can go to Palmetto State Armory and buy a complete upper for ~$300 and a complete lower for $159.  Slap them together and get to shooting.  You can mall ninja accessorize the hell out of it if you want to from there…lol

dogmush

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Re: SIG ARs...
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2022, 09:41:21 AM »
I have a PSA cheapest AR you can buy, and I have nice AR's built with good parts.  They are not directly comparable.

PSA has their place, and I LOVE that they get just a ton more people into the AR and Semi-auto rifle world, but that price comes at the expense of parts and build quality.  If $400 or $500 is all you can afford, or are willing to pay, yeah grab a PSA and have at least an AR, but the kid is already looking to drop $1000-$1500 on a Sig Elite.  He should get a better gun than PSA.

K Frame

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Re: SIG ARs...
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2022, 10:16:08 AM »
The kid's 22 years old and is earning $90,000 a year, so yeah, he's not looking for the cheapest thing about there.

"BCM M4 Mod 0"

I'm not sure that he's interested in the M4 carbine profile, but I'll pass that along.

He was looking at Daniel Defense, but he's not interested in spending $2,000 on an AR.
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Ben

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Re: SIG ARs...
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2022, 10:38:14 AM »
Another vote for BCM. They have a pretty decent variety of high quality rifles with some at pretty reasonable price points. Especially relative to Sig.
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WLJ

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Re: SIG ARs...
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2022, 10:38:27 AM »

He was looking at Daniel Defense, but he's not interested in spending $2,000 on an AR.

That's usually the next one
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dogmush

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Re: SIG ARs...
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2022, 10:48:06 AM »
If he's not looking for "M4" my recommendation continues to be BCM, but look at their RECCE line.  They have longer, free-floating rails with your choice of attachment profile.

Basically, if you get over $1100 or so in budget for an AR, just buy BCM until your budget gets over $2000 or so.  In that $1-$2k spread, they are really hard to beat for quality, "duty ready" AR's.

IMNSHO, If you're going to spend the cash on a Sig, get one of the MCX variants and enjoy your piston and folding stock.

K Frame

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Re: SIG ARs...
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2022, 10:50:19 AM »
OK, he told me he's also looking at Springfield Armory Saint models.

I passed along the recommendation on the BCM.
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Ben

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Re: SIG ARs...
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2022, 10:51:39 AM »
IMNSHO, If you're going to spend the cash on a Sig, get one of the MCX variants and enjoy your piston and folding stock.

Ha ha, that's what I did, though I have to say I enjoy my long piston PWS guns more than the short piston Sig.

Actually, I've heard pretty good stuff about the Zev core duty rifle as a basic AR, and it might be cheaper than BCM models. If a couple hundred ducats isn't an issue, I'd probably still lean towards BCM though.
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WLJ

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Re: SIG ARs...
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2022, 10:55:13 AM »
I'll 2nd the BCM recommendation if he wants a rock solid AR you can bet your life on without a bunch of flashy fancy addons of many of the high end ones.
Trouble is actually finding one.
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Lennyjoe

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Re: SIG ARs...
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2022, 04:13:09 PM »
I only recommended PSA for entry level so depending on how much loot you have, the options go up

MechAg94

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Re: SIG ARs...
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2022, 07:59:58 PM »
Military Arms channel did an endurance test of a BCM Recce.  He was going about 1000 rounds at a time with no cleaning, just cooling it down every 5 or 6 magazines.  I think the last video I saw went North of 8000 with no malfunctions.  The ammo crunch delayed things so I can't remember if he ever got close to 10K. 

IMO, it was a good recommendation for the BCM. 

I have a BCM rifle, but it is a BCM upper I bought with a complete BCM lower I got later with their bolt carrier group.  It is not as light as the Recce, but it is a solid gun.  Shoots very consistently with no issues. 
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tokugawa

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Re: SIG ARs...
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2022, 09:23:50 PM »
I have a PSA cheapest AR you can buy, and I have nice AR's built with good parts.  They are not directly comparable.

PSA has their place, and I LOVE that they get just a ton more people into the AR and Semi-auto rifle world, but that price comes at the expense of parts and build quality.  If $400 or $500 is all you can afford, or are willing to pay, yeah grab a PSA and have at least an AR, but the kid is already looking to drop $1000-$1500 on a Sig Elite.  He should get a better gun than PSA.

 What are the qualitative differences?  if it shoots, runs and lasts, how is quality measured?
 Americans love to spend money on gadgets, "new" is the flavor of the week- does not matter what it is- cars, tools, guns, ski's, hairstyle, software, there is always a new gadget to separate "consumer" from money. So the question is, it something better, in any measurable sense, or is it just new?

MechAg94

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Re: SIG ARs...
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2022, 12:33:00 AM »
I had a couple of PSA AR's at one time.  When I cut the numbers in 2020, they were sold. 

1.  Fit and finish was rougher.  Not as smooth or slick.  The pistol upper I had was actually not bad and comparable to other AR's under $1000 as far as fit and finish goes.  The rifle upper I had was a couple years older.  Fit and finish isn't always important, but it reinforces the shooter's confidence in the gun.
2.  One was a kit and one of the lower parts didn't fit.  Had to get another one. 
3.  Trigger that came with it was the standard.  PSA has an upgraded trigger that isn't too bad. 
4.  Both guns worked.  Never had any major malfunctions.  They shot reasonably well.  Their lightweight upper was actually lightweight with a good barrel. 
5.  They build almost all their own parts.  I think their quality is better than their pricing implies. 

My BCM rifle is better on all fronts right out of the box.  The groups are not a great deal better.  I am sure there are lots of QA/QC issues and long term quality issues that are better with BCM, but if you are not likely to ever go past 1000 rounds, I don't know if that matters.  I am not as familiar with what separates the cheaper AR's from more expensive stuff. 

I would say PSA compares well with other sub-$1000 AR's.  Better than some I would say. 
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Pb

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Re: SIG ARs...
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2022, 12:07:17 PM »
Sort of off topic, but how is Aero Precision?  I was kind of looking a getting one for my son.

dogmush

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Re: SIG ARs...
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2022, 01:06:38 PM »
What are the qualitative differences?  if it shoots, runs and lasts, how is quality measured?
 Americans love to spend money on gadgets, "new" is the flavor of the week- does not matter what it is- cars, tools, guns, ski's, hairstyle, software, there is always a new gadget to separate "consumer" from money. So the question is, it something better, in any measurable sense, or is it just new?

Well "shoots, runs, and lasts" is kinda the qualitative difference in my experience.  A PSA gun will often have cheaper small parts. Things like extractor springs, extractor buffers and buffer springs will often have a distinctly shorter life.  I've seen gas blocks with no dimpling of the barrel under them, or not great gas port alignment.  Barrels can be a mixed bag,  Some of PSA's barrels are FN CHF barrels, and those are great.  They had a "freedom line" I think it was called for a while that seemed to be the shittiest AR barrels I've ever seen.  I saw keyholeing on brand new guns. The cheaper builds are often closer to the edge of running reliably and will act up when dirty, too cold, or too hot, where a more carefully built gun won't.  Cheaper builds are often over gassed to combat these issues, which then leads to more gas in the face, more fouling, and a harsher recoil impulse.  If you are trying for quick follow up shots, or keeping the target in the scope to spot your hit, 30% difference in buffer velocity when it bottoms out is pretty noticeable. Then there's your definition of "Run"  If a PSA has 500 MRBF and a Daniel Defense has 6000MRBF, that's a huge qualitative difference, but may not be noticed by a casual shooter.

So the better builds, IME, shoot better, run better, and last longer than a PSA (or Core15, or Anderson, or whatever the budget build of the day is).  It is very possible that any one person's use case for an AR-15 will be filled just fine by the not as good performance of a less quality build. That's up to the person.

I want to be clear:  There's a place for budget AR's.  I own several.  If I want some weird caliber or configuration to play with as a range toy, I might not want to sink $1500 into it.  Or an upper for a 3D printed lower.  I run a PSA there.  Someone that wants their first MSR and plans for less than 500 rds a year just to practice?  Sure, get you a PSA and rock on.  I only mentioned the difference because we brought PSA into a conversation of over $1k AR's, and they're not really the same creature. Caveat:  If you go budget enough to run up against Century style builds, spend more money.

Pb:  I've never played with an full Aero build, but I run Aero recivers in my AR-10, have a freefloat rail of theirs, and a couple of their scope mounts, and everything I've ever gotten from them was really nice stuff.