Author Topic: Man killed in snow roofalanche.  (Read 5242 times)

230RN

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Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« on: March 12, 2019, 07:59:21 AM »
Quote
In Crested Butte (Colorado), Stephan Michael Martel, 25, died and Blair Tulliver Burton, 37, was injured Saturday when snow slid off the roof of a commercial building, Mount Crested Butte Police Department spokeswoman Marjorie Trautman said.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/colorado/articles/2019-03-11/1-killed-2-hurt-by-deep-snow-sliding-from-colorado-rooftops

Many of the roofs in the mountains have rather aggressive pitches to encourage snow to slide off them.  (The one picture I saw on TV of the "commercial building" where the guy was killed had a very strong slope.)

Lots of avalanche and snow control going on.  Lots of mountain passes closed.

Supposedly, a big storm is coming.  Winter weather watch in effect for Wednesday through Saturday.

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 12:08:07 PM by 230RN »
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WLJ

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Re: Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2019, 08:13:12 AM »
Global warming claims another life.
When will this horror end?
Donate now to Al Gore to end this madness.
It's for the mansion #4 remodel, I mean children
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Firethorn

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Re: Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2019, 08:38:27 AM »
Global warming claims another life.
When will this horror end?
Donate now to Al Gore to end this madness.
It's for the mansion #4 remodel, I mean children

Cute.  But it is global climate change for a reason now.  More heat means more energy, stronger convection cells, leading to more severe weather.  Including snow in select areas.

No need to donate to Al Gore.  Support your local nuclear power plant.

WLJ

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Re: Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2019, 08:45:32 AM »
Cute.  But it is global climate change for a reason now.  More heat means more energy, stronger convection cells, leading to more severe weather.  Including snow in select areas.

No need to donate to Al Gore.  Support your local nuclear power plant.

I know, because you can't argue with the term "climate change" because the climate is always changing and has been always changing.
Alert AOC! Ban dinosaur farts!
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griz

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Re: Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2019, 09:28:47 AM »
Cute.  But it is global climate change for a reason now.  More heat means more energy, stronger convection cells, leading to more severe weather.  Including snow in select areas.

No need to donate to Al Gore.  Support your local nuclear power plant.


I'm sorry to keep the climate change sidetrack going, but your claims just got under my skin.  You side stepped the "more heat causes more snow, but only in certain areas" argument by saying climate change means "severe" weather.  What is severe?  Is it measurable or is it just a catchy buzzword to avoid the fact that a fraction of a degree over a lifetime isn't a big deal?
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2019, 09:47:16 AM »
Crested Butte is gorgeous but they do get a metric buttload of snow. Thoughts and prayers for the guy's family.

Brad
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MechAg94

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Re: Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2019, 10:04:07 AM »

I'm sorry to keep the climate change sidetrack going, but your claims just got under my skin.  You side stepped the "more heat causes more snow, but only in certain areas" argument by saying climate change means "severe" weather.  What is severe?  Is it measurable or is it just a catchy buzzword to avoid the fact that a fraction of a degree over a lifetime isn't a big deal?
We always hear about the severe weather argument when hurricane season starts and everyone seems to predict more hurricanes than actually occur.  There was plenty of severe weather in the 1800's and other times.  There were just fewer people to witness it and no media to sensationalize it. 

Just imagine if the Little Ice Age occurred today.  The end of the world hysteria would be huge. 
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WLJ

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Re: Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2019, 10:10:29 AM »
We always hear about the severe weather argument when hurricane season starts and everyone seems to predict more hurricanes than actually occur.  There was plenty of severe weather in the 1800's and other times.  There were just fewer people to witness it and no media to sensationalize it. 


Not to mention people were smart enough, for the most part, back then to not built right on the beach and/or on barrier islands
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Firethorn

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Re: Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2019, 11:51:08 AM »

I'm sorry to keep the climate change sidetrack going, but your claims just got under my skin.  You side stepped the "more heat causes more snow, but only in certain areas" argument by saying climate change means "severe" weather.  What is severe?  Is it measurable or is it just a catchy buzzword to avoid the fact that a fraction of a degree over a lifetime isn't a big deal?

Uh, to be clear.
1.  I said more severe, not just severe.  As in whatever weather you're used to, expect more energetic weather events.  It is very much measurable within reasonable error bars, but getting more specific depends on the exact factors and I'm not a climatologist.  It is like how I know the basics on how vaccines work without being a biologist.  So, because I don't have exact numbers(when do you start, end, how far into future, where, etc...), I just provide what I can.
1a.  Everything is also on average.
2.  More snow would be the areas far enough north(or south) to actually get snow, thus select areas.
3.  Fraction of a degree wouldn't be bad.  We're looking at several degrees, and it is causing stuff like melting glaciers.  We're looking at sending ship traffic through the arctic ocean, and are sending expeditions down south to look at land areas that have been under ice for hundreds of thousands of years.
4.  Side note, the extra CO2 is acidifing the oceans, and that is going to have negative effects on the sea life and productivity.
5.  We're actually seeing more hurricanes.  What used to be once every 3-5 years is now like every other year.

I put the explanation in the post as for why.  Convection cells.  Quick science lesson.  The Earth absorbs heat at the equator, and emits it at the poles(on average).  The heat is moved from the equator to the poles via convection, mostly.  Air and oceans.  Add in coriolis effect and you get things like the gulf stream.  More energy makes the convection cells larger and more powerful.  Higher CO2 levels means less reflected heat at the equator, so more energy traveling to the poles.  The last set of convection cells are the polar ones, where hot high air travels to the poles, cools and sinks.  This pushes cold air south.  Make the cell bigger and more energetic and you get cold fronts pushing further south.  Given proper water in the atmosphere, this can lead to more snow.  Where you actually get more snow requires more knowledge and analysis than I am capable of.


Perd Hapley

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Re: Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2019, 12:32:17 PM »
Another gay rights thread, huh?
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2019, 01:09:19 PM »
We always hear about the severe weather argument when hurricane season starts and everyone seems to predict more hurricanes than actually occur.  There was plenty of severe weather in the 1800's and other times.  There were just fewer people to witness it and no media to sensationalize it. 

Just imagine if the Little Ice Age occurred today.  The end of the world hysteria would be huge. 

The worst hurricane that ever hit Connecticut, where I grew up, was in 1938 (before I was born). Obviously, I didn't experience it but my mother and grandparents did, and I have read the reports and seen the photos. The worst hurricane I experienced in Connecticut was Gloria, in 1985. Gloria made Sandy look like a walk in the park.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2019, 01:10:58 PM »
Not to mention people were smart enough, for the most part, back then to not built right on the beach and/or on barrier islands

:Cough:  :Cough: Galveston, TX. Long Island, NY.  :Cough:  :Cough:
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DittoHead

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Re: Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2019, 01:13:25 PM »
Another gay rights thread, huh?

Yup. There is an ever-growing list of things I see no point in 'discussing' anymore, here or anywhere else. This is one makes the list.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2019, 01:17:41 PM »

2.  More snow would be the areas far enough north(or south) to actually get snow, thus select areas.
3.  Fraction of a degree wouldn't be bad.  We're looking at several degrees, and it is causing stuff like melting glaciers.  We're looking at sending ship traffic through the arctic ocean, and are sending expeditions down south to look at land areas that have been under ice for hundreds of thousands of years.


What year (or even century) is your baseline?

My corner of the universe gets snow, and in recent years we have seen a LOT less snow than we had most winters when I was a sprout. Had a blizzard that basically shut down the entire state back in 1978 or 1979 -- we haven't seen anything like that in the years since.

As to melting glaciers -- let's not forget that the New York Finger Lakes were carved by glaciers, as was the coastline of Maine. The glaciers at one time extended as far south as roughly the line of U.S. Route 202 across Massachusetts. Should we be holding out for all of upper New England and New York state to be covered with ice again?
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MechAg94

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Re: Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2019, 03:20:11 PM »
Uh, to be clear.
1.  I said more severe, not just severe.  As in whatever weather you're used to, expect more energetic weather events.  It is very much measurable within reasonable error bars, but getting more specific depends on the exact factors and I'm not a climatologist.  It is like how I know the basics on how vaccines work without being a biologist.  So, because I don't have exact numbers(when do you start, end, how far into future, where, etc...), I just provide what I can.
1a.  Everything is also on average.
2.  More snow would be the areas far enough north(or south) to actually get snow, thus select areas.
3.  Fraction of a degree wouldn't be bad.  We're looking at several degrees, and it is causing stuff like melting glaciers.  We're looking at sending ship traffic through the arctic ocean, and are sending expeditions down south to look at land areas that have been under ice for hundreds of thousands of years.
4.  Side note, the extra CO2 is acidifing the oceans, and that is going to have negative effects on the sea life and productivity.
5.  We're actually seeing more hurricanes.  What used to be once every 3-5 years is now like every other year.

I put the explanation in the post as for why.  Convection cells.  Quick science lesson.  The Earth absorbs heat at the equator, and emits it at the poles(on average).  The heat is moved from the equator to the poles via convection, mostly.  Air and oceans.  Add in coriolis effect and you get things like the gulf stream.  More energy makes the convection cells larger and more powerful.  Higher CO2 levels means less reflected heat at the equator, so more energy traveling to the poles.  The last set of convection cells are the polar ones, where hot high air travels to the poles, cools and sinks.  This pushes cold air south.  Make the cell bigger and more energetic and you get cold fronts pushing further south.  Given proper water in the atmosphere, this can lead to more snow.  Where you actually get more snow requires more knowledge and analysis than I am capable of.


1.  As said above, what is your baseline.  There has been severe weather since mankind has recorded such things.  IMO, that is a very general and useless prediction that is so vague that any given data set can be used to prove or disprove.
2.  See #1.
3.  Several degrees where?  Now or someone's prediction?
4.  The extra CO2 isn't near what is has been in the not so distant past.  Did I miss an extinction event?
5.  Where are you talking about?  Do you have a link to something that says there are more hurricanes now? 
6.  Why do you hate gay rights? 
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MechAg94

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Re: Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2019, 03:21:38 PM »
On the roof avalanches:  How do people usually get injured from that?  Is it when they are trying to remove it or are they just standing in the wrong place and the wrong time?  The article did not have that detail.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2019, 05:13:09 PM »
On the roof avalanches:  How do people usually get injured from that?  Is it when they are trying to remove it or are they just standing in the wrong place and the wrong time?  The article did not have that detail.


A wet snow can be darned heavy, about 18-20 lb per cu ft IIRC. A 14"-16" slab say, oh, fifteen or twenty feet square comes in at more than four tons. Also, a slab of falling wet snow will pack like concrete and set almost hard as solid ice under it's own weight. Throw in an ice layer or two and you have a few nice daggers in the mix, too. Some poor schlub standing under an eave with a big slab lets go? He better have a couple of stout buddies real close by with some shovels or he'll end up like this guy.

Brad
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230RN

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Re: Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2019, 08:11:14 PM »
Thanks, Brad and MechAg94

Here's a big roofalanche, and the roof pitch isn't even that sharp.  Looks ike about 18"-2 feet of snow by my calibrated snow-depth eyeballs.

https://youtu.be/ECKGUURUX_A (1:52)

(The real pile falling is about 1:30 if you're impatient.)

In addition, there may be one or more layers of thaw-freeze cycle ice netween layers of nice fluffy stuff which can act like guillotine blades.

Most of the time you see roofalanche videos it's somebody falling off the roof amid a pile of snow, or getting partially buried and everybody laughs ha-ha yuk-yuk.

All this is does not imply this is exclusive to Colorado.

As to how they get started... who knows?  Someone inside the building sneezing, poking at it from outside, or just when force versus friction finally get to a certain point, by explosives laid down by helicopter or artillery fire.

Or by a-hole skiers skiing outside of designated safe areas.

Mountain avalanches can even be started by a loud noise.

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 08:37:47 PM by 230RN »
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MechAg94

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Re: Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2019, 11:01:58 PM »
Lesson in where not to stand if I find myself up North in Winter. 
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Firethorn

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Re: Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2019, 12:00:25 AM »
:Cough:  :Cough: Galveston, TX. Long Island, NY.  :Cough:  :Cough:

He said "most" for a reason.  

Funny thing about New Orleans when it flooded, the old French Districts were mostly fine - they built on the highest ground available, not being idiots.  It was the newer areas.

Quote from: MechAg94
1.  As said above, what is your baseline.  There has been severe weather since mankind has recorded such things.  IMO, that is a very general and useless prediction that is so vague that any given data set can be used to prove or disprove.

That's the thing about specifying not even a rate, the baseline is irrelevant, really.  But most of them are basically 50-60 years in the past, because that's when we start having good available data.  Some go as far back as a hundred or two.

3.  Several degrees, on average.  Basically everywhere.  By the vast majority of scientific estimates, by about 2030.  Thus, specifying 1-2 locations that are colder than average for a limited period over the course of not even a year, as is popular here to disclaim global climate change, isn't moving.

Quote
4.  The extra CO2 isn't near what is has been in the not so distant past.  Did I miss an extinction event?

Looks like you have.  Or did you miss that we might be in one right now?

As for CO2, No, it really isn't.  We're about 1/3rd higher than ever recorded.

We're at 414 ppm and rising.  
Before the 1800s we were at around 275(using ice core data).
Over the last 800,000 years, which I'd consider "distant past", the highest we got was about 300ppm.  So we're about a third over the highest recorded value and rising.

Funny thing I remember reading is that plants grow better in higher CO2 concentrations.  It has to do with their ability to absorb CO2 and reject O2 for photosynthesis.  O2 likes bonding to the same molecule as CO2, so the plant has to spend energy kicking the O2 it doesn't need out to hopefully capture a CO2 molecule next.  Thing is?  This maxes out at around 300ppm, so plants aren't benefiting from higher CO2 levels anymore.

5.  Where are you talking about?  Do you have a link to something that says there are more hurricanes now?

http://www.stormfax.com/huryear.htm

Throw the data into a spreadsheet and graph it.

Quote
6.  Why do you hate gay rights?

Because they're trampling on the rights of others now.  

Quote from: MechAg94
Lesson in where not to stand if I find myself up North in Winter.

A lot of our roofs have cleats on them to prevent snow/ice falls over walkways and entrances.

As to melting glaciers -- let's not forget that the New York Finger Lakes were carved by glaciers, as was the coastline of Maine. The glaciers at one time extended as far south as roughly the line of U.S. Route 202 across Massachusetts. Should we be holding out for all of upper New England and New York state to be covered with ice again?

Gotta go with the slippery slope, do you?  Sane people aren't demanding another ice age.  Merely not pushing us into a hot age.  The extremists would be pushing for about 300 ppm, the highest recorded natural level.  I'd say that where we are now is alarming enough, and that we really should have been hitting the brakes 20-40 years ago.  Really, we've reached the point that coastal damage can only be limited.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 12:55:40 AM by Firethorn »

Hawkmoon

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Re: Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2019, 12:41:46 AM »
Here's a big roofalanche, and the roof pitch isn't even that sharp.  Looks ike about 18"-2 feet of snow by my calibrated snow-depth eyeballs.

https://youtu.be/ECKGUURUX_A (1:52)

(The real pile falling is about 1:30 if you're impatient.)


I'm amazed that anyone in Colorado would build anything with a sloped metal roof and not install snow guards to prevent exactly this sort of issue.
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TommyGunn

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Re: Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2019, 12:58:38 AM »
The worst hurricane that ever hit Connecticut, where I grew up, was in 1938 (before I was born). Obviously, I didn't experience it but my mother and grandparents did, and I have read the reports and seen the photos. The worst hurricane I experienced in Connecticut was Gloria, in 1985. Gloria made Sandy look like a walk in the park.
 

My mother survived the 1938 hurricane.
I survived Gloria in 1985.  About three or four days without power,   some washed out roads, so no biggie .... but the company I worked for was a bit stupid about how they prepared for it .... which is another story.
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230RN

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Re: Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2019, 01:41:11 AM »
Hawkmoon mentioned,

"I'm amazed that anyone in Colorado would build anything with a sloped metal roof and not install snow guards to prevent exactly this sort of issue."

It's to save the roof from collapsing under the weight of the snow. You will notice that the "corrugatons" of the sheet metal roof in the previous video were up-and-down rather than side to side to avoid capturing the snow and the snowmelt.  In fact, one of the problems is "snow dams" forming in rain gutters, which keep the snowmelt from flowing away.

Flat roofs are in fact very subject to collapse from the snow load.



However, one solution to the "problem" of being injured in a roofalanche or having the roof collapse is to continue a severely-sloped roof right down to the ground.  Thus, the "A-Frame" design which is popular in mountain areas routinely subject to heavy snowfalls.



Terry, 230RN

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« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 02:36:26 AM by 230RN »
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2019, 01:57:46 AM »
Hawkmoon queried,

"I'm amazed that anyone in Colorado would build anything with a sloped metal roof and not install snow guards to prevent exactly this sort of issue."

To save the roof from collapsing under the weight of the snow. You will notice that the "corrugatons" of the sheet metal roof were up-and-down rather than side to side to avoid capturing the snow and the snowmelt.  In fact, one of the problems is "snow dams" in the rain gutters, which keep the snowmelt from flowing away.


Ummmm ... sorry, not just "No" but "Hell no."

Building codes require the structure to support the weight of snow. How much weight is based on tables and charts that are dependent on location. There are also provisions for the additional weight of drifted snow where roofs of different heights are adjacent. The building codes do NOT allow any reduction in the required snow load for the possibility that the snow might slide off.
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230RN

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Re: Man killed in snow roofalanche.
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2019, 03:39:52 AM »
Aw, c'mon, Hawkmoon.  Think about what I said and about what you're saying.

Ayup, built to code.  Yet roofs still collapse.



You're talking about building stresses within the ASSUMED limits of the Code-makers.

Safety factor, let's say 50% or whatever you choose.  But I reckon they had a 51% snowfall. So yes, hell yes.

And since vertical snow load is dependent on the roof angle, there's no wonder flat roofs are more vulnerable and A-frames less so.

"The building codes do NOT allow any reduction in the required
snow load for the possibility that the snow might slide off."  I did not say they did.

The point is that all the engineering that goes into safe building codes are based on given stresses plus safety factors balanced against costs, etc.  But what if the snow load is over that safety factor?

Yes, hell yes, you get roof collapses. And I know you do a lot of architectural work.

So yes, hell yes, you get actual honest-to-Gawd roof collapses, no kiddin' around, no argument, building codes notwithstanding.

It's sort of like saying "Yes, within this area, it is safe for 100-year floods."  Then there's a 500-year flood..

With all due respect, "Man deposes, G-d disposes."

=D
Terry
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 06:37:41 AM by 230RN »
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