Author Topic: Breaking Point  (Read 12797 times)

Werewolf

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Re: Breaking Point
« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2009, 03:45:03 PM »

The feds would crush any serious secessionist movement.
But they'd have to do it outside the law and when the populace inevitably discovered what they were doing I don't imagine that being a fed anywhere anytime would be a particularly safe thing to be.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Breaking Point
« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2009, 06:37:54 PM »
Texicans are invincible.

Just ask them.   =D
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zahc

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Re: Breaking Point
« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2009, 08:27:18 PM »
I like the idea of a peacefull secession, and the original topic of the snowball effect that would be sure to follow is even more interesting, since it would seem like states most likely to join would split the country in half from TX to MT. TX really is the key, since the interior States would be landlocked if they attempted it alone.

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And that the United States government would be capable of carrying out what is essentially a conspiracy worthy of Alex Jones, and nobody would find out?

It's not that nobody would find out, it's that nobody would do anything if they did. See previous arguments about branch davidians etc.

Quote
But they'd have to do it outside the law and when the populace inevitably discovered what they were doing I don't imagine that being a fed anywhere anytime would be a particularly safe thing to be.

Texans are great and tewibble, sure. But most Americans are not Texans. There seems to be sentiment that if the American People found out that Texan secessionists were being retaliated against, they would be outraged at the feds and support Texas. The people expressing these sentiments may not spend as much time on college campuses as I do, but my perception is that America(TM) looks to mommy Federal Government to see what is legal/ok/allowed/right, and thus the rebels would be Bad People(TM) to those outside of Texas, or aloyal to Texas. I'd wager that most Americans consider secession to be a criminal or at least an anti-social thing to do, and immediately feel that it is legally appropriate for the Federales to take significant millitary action to prevent it. If this escalated to the point of serious conflict with civilians in the crossfire, then people might start to lose their stomach for it. But the smart bet is on it NOT escalating that far because as soon as a the few most brazen rebels/dissenters/insurgents/terrorists are killed, the Texas population will back down in the face of the black helicopters and other military hardware in their backyards. I would expect the Feds to bet on this outcome as well, and thus go forth with the whole thing. So in this completely hypothetical scenario that I envision as most likely, a peaceful secession is not likely.

This reminds me of the scene in Gone with the Wind when Rhett Butler gives his unpopular advice at the meeting of plantation owners at the outbreak of the War Between the States (v.1)
Quote

RHETT BUTLER
I think it's hard winning a war with words,
gentlemen.

CHARLES
What do you mean, sir?

RHETT
I mean, Mr. Hamilton, there's not a cannon factory in
the whole South.

MAN
What difference does that make, sir, to a gentleman?

RHETT
I'm afraid it's going to make a great deal of
difference to a great many gentlemen, sir.

CHARLES
Are you hinting, Mr. Butler, that the Yankees can
lick us?

RHETT
No, I'm not hinting. I'm saying very plainly that the
Yankees are better equipped than we. They've got
factories, shipyards, coal-mines... and a fleet to
bottle up our harbors and starve us to death. All
we've got is cotton, and slaves and ...arrogance.

MAN
That's treacherous!

CHARLES
I refuse to listen to any renegade talk!

RHETT
Well, I'm sorry if the truth offends you.

CHARLES
Apologies aren't enough sir. I hear you were turned
out of West Point Mr. Rhett Butler. And that you
aren't received in an decent family in Charleston.
Not even

your own.

RHETT
I apologize again for all my shortcomings. Mr.
Wilkes, Perhaps you won't mind if I walk about and
look ver your place. I seem to be spoiling
everybody's brandy and cigars and...dreams of
victory.

So while we are talking about all this in completely hypothetical terms, for the speculative fiction that we are all interested in as fans of speculative fiction, and nothing more, just what kind of military hardware does TX have? Does it have a fleet? Air power? Ground power for that matter?

« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 08:33:05 PM by zahc »
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roo_ster

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Re: Breaking Point
« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2009, 08:59:21 PM »
I could turn out an infantry squad in rifles and boots.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Breaking Point
« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2009, 09:00:24 PM »
They have their egos.

That's all they need.  ;)
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Breaking Point
« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2009, 09:46:57 PM »
I could turn out an infantry squad in rifles and boots.

And nothing else, I presume?

They'd need red diapers, you know.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Breaking Point
« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2009, 10:02:07 PM »
Why would the secessionists need military hardware?  Why couldn't they turn the tables on the government assassins and start burning their homes down?  If such tactics would work against the secessionists there's no reason they wouldn't work against evil government agents.


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Re: Breaking Point
« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2009, 10:07:16 PM »
Why would the secessionists need military hardware?  Why couldn't they turn the tables on the government assassins and start burning their homes down?  If such tactics would work against the secessionists there's no reason they wouldn't work against evil government agents.


You can't find the evil .gov's homes when they shut down google earth.  :laugh:

In the event of secession, whoever owned flyover country would likely be in charge... after all, aren't most of the nukes there?


Gewehr98

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Re: Breaking Point
« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2009, 10:19:55 PM »
True.

I know the nukes aren't at Carswell AFB, anymore. 
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

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zahc

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Re: Breaking Point
« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2009, 10:38:29 PM »
Paradoxically, I think the the only way a peaceful secession could be pulled off is if Texas had antihistamine military capabilities and the apparent willingness to use it. Otherwise the feds would interpret the power dynamic as I did above.

It's interesting to remember that TX also has DFW airport, a major hub.
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seeker_two

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Re: Breaking Point
« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2009, 10:39:29 PM »
I could turn out an infantry squad in rifles and boots.

The next civil war won't be about uniformed armies and gentlemen....it will look more like Northern Ireland or Bosnia.....

...and it won't stay withing the borders of Texas, either....


...scary times a-comin'.....
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Re: Breaking Point
« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2009, 11:32:42 PM »
Quote
Paradoxically, I think the the only way a peaceful secession could be pulled off is if Texas had antihistamine military capabilities and the apparent willingness to use it.
Antihistamine? Are you saying an army marches on its benadryl?  =D

MicroBalrog

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Re: Breaking Point
« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2009, 11:50:19 PM »
Quote
5-10 alphabet soup agents going off and whacking a politico? Foster and Brown.

Vince Foster committed suicide. Five investigations, including those conducted by political enemies of WJC, concluded so. No credible evidence to the theory that he was murdered has ever been brought up.

Quote
You think they wouldn't try to intimidate others? Clintons using the FBI and IRS to track and harrass their enemy.

Different from  actually going and threatening assassination.


Quote
Maybe maybe not; it's easy to be a hero and say "I'd never back down" when no one is pointing a gun at your head.

The point is, they couldn't safely bet on it.

Your suggestion is that:

1.The Federal government would explicitly threaten dozens of political opponents with death, and perhaps even secretly exterminate these opponents.

2. They would threaten dozens of people with death, and have the entire leadership of a group already opposed to their rule keep it secret that they had been threatened.

3. Maintain squads of hitmen and goons evil enough to perform those acts, and yet not corrupt enough to betray them or leak the evidence for a political benefit or bribe.

4. Maintain plausible deniability throughout the operation.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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zahc

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Re: Breaking Point
« Reply #63 on: April 20, 2009, 12:12:03 AM »
Quote
antihistamine military capabilities
"nothing to sneeze at"


Quote
1.
2.
3.
4.
Am I the only one who doesn't think they have to maintain plausible deniability? They don't. Just round them up, they are dangerous dissenters, and nobody is going to care, because OMG it's for the children/our own good.
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Strings

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Re: Breaking Point
« Reply #64 on: April 20, 2009, 12:18:58 AM »
>Maintain squads of hitmen and goons evil enough to perform those acts, and yet not corrupt enough to betray them or leak the evidence for a political benefit or bribe.<

Ever see the movie Serenity? Remember the Operative? There ARE people in the world with that much of a messed-up worldview. And actually, some of the Obamatons show exactly that kind of sociopathy...
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Breaking Point
« Reply #65 on: April 20, 2009, 12:33:01 AM »
Quote
Am I the only one who doesn't think they have to maintain plausible deniability? They don't. Just round them up, they are dangerous dissenters, and nobody is going to care, because OMG it's for the children/our own good.

Look at Moldavia.

What you're talking about here is not some gun law passing you don't like.

It's democracy as you know it being cancelled.

If they did it, America would no longer be a Western country - not even to the extent of Britain or France today. It would become a run-of-the-mill third-world craphole.

People in actual post-Soviet countries - like the Ukraine and now Moldavia - revolt and riot in the streets for less than that, and they're right to.

If America turns into a country where political dissidents are taken away and executed, you've gone past the grade of oppression that exists in a welfare state and gone straight to open tyranny. You would be completely justified in rising up against such a state, rifle in hand.

Of course, such a scenario is even less feasible than Texas seceding from the Union.

I can sort of see America getting there after half a century of incrementalist creep. MAYBE. Kind of.

But the notion that in the current political climate the FedGov can actually haul political dissidents away or kill them in the middle of the night and get away with it is completely unrealistic.

Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

zahc

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Re: Breaking Point
« Reply #66 on: April 20, 2009, 12:59:44 AM »
They wouldn't HAVE to haul them away in the middle of the night. They wouldn't want to either. Am I missing something here?

By "political dissidents" we aren't talking about people who have different views on small government issues. If I understand the thread correctly, we are discussing a state seceding from the union, while assuming that the federal government of the then-former united states is not rolling the red carpet out for them. That can't be legal.


Quote
Quote
The feds would crush any serious secessionist movement.
But they'd have to do it outside the law

No, they wouldn't. I mean we are talking about breaking tons of federal laws here, that could be prosecuted by the federal government. No longer obeying social security, no longer paying federal income taxes, no longer using the postal system, kicking TSA out of DFW airport, breaking FAA/DOT/$alphabet regulations galore. These are all crimes. What do you do about all the federal property in the state, such as post offices? Projects in progress that get federal funding? Schools that receive federal funding? Military bases in TX? Anyone perpetuating a movement to secede could be seized on trumped up charges, held indefinitely, and prosecuted under a heavy tome of glorious federal laws as they now exist, and it wouldn't be "taking away and executing political dissidents". Well, that's exactly what it would be, but that's not how it would come down politically. Maybe I'm being thick and showing my ignorance of history or politics, but as a 23 year old American male this is the way I can see it going down, so that in itself might give you some perspective on how middle America perceives these things.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 01:08:50 AM by zahc »
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Balog

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Re: Breaking Point
« Reply #67 on: April 20, 2009, 01:12:51 AM »
Oh ffs, ok Micro. I'll give you my statement (which I repeatedly and explicitly stated as unlikely) is really unlikely. Ok?

Just admit that any kind of secession is way, way more unlikely. Unpossible, as it were. Over a hundred odd years of schools indoctrinating kids means there are very, very, very few people who take the idea of a state seceding seriously. Anyone trying to stir up a movement like that would be breaking a huge number of pre-existing laws, that many people have already been tried under.

Americans now care less about personal freedom than ever before. We've been conditioned to accept .gov schools, income tax etc. Our forefathers would've revolted a long, long time ago if even half the crap that exists now was forced on them. People like us may know secession is legal, but we are in a huge minority. And even amongst those who think secession is legal, very few would actively support trying to do it.

Arresting people for stirring up secession would meet about as much horror and incite as much revolution as the tax protestors in NH getting snatched up did.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Breaking Point
« Reply #68 on: April 20, 2009, 01:18:09 AM »
I for one believe that the wave of Big Government indoctrination has actually crested.
I also think that secession is unlikely. But that's simply most people don't think it's a good idea.

I do not however agree with your overall assessment of the American people. I am however incapable of elaborating right now, if you don't mind, I'll do that a bit later today. I apologize for not responding in as much detail as your post merits.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Breaking Point
« Reply #69 on: April 21, 2009, 11:53:54 AM »
News Flash from CNN.

Ron Paul says it's OK to talk secession:

http://amfix.blogs.cnn.com/2009/04/21/ron-paul-secession-is-american/

I think I just made Microbalrog's day by posting this, too.   =D
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Balog

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Re: Breaking Point
« Reply #70 on: April 21, 2009, 12:07:33 PM »
:rolleyes:

I hate to pull this card, but I think I understand the sentiments of the average American better than you Micro. We have access to the same written resources and studies etc, but I can actually meet and talk to hundreds of people. The average sample size for my opinions are far larger.
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Re: Breaking Point
« Reply #71 on: April 21, 2009, 12:33:47 PM »
Quote
Americans now care less about personal freedom than ever before. We've been conditioned to accept .gov schools, income tax etc.
Unfortunately true. I'm currently in a college class where presentations must be made on ethical dilemmas. The most common conclusion is "the government should make stronger regulations." For every topic discussed.
That speaks of an underlying issue of "the government is the answer to our problems."

MicroBalrog

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Re: Breaking Point
« Reply #72 on: April 21, 2009, 11:33:19 PM »
News Flash from CNN.

Ron Paul says it's OK to talk secession:



Ron Paul says secession is okay? Who would have thought it!
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Antibubba

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Re: Breaking Point
« Reply #73 on: April 22, 2009, 03:17:37 AM »
Quote
If there's any one state that could secede by its self and make it work then it is Texas (maybe CA). Large state with a very, very loyal and large population. You have to be a Texan - which I was for most of my life - even after moving to OK - to understand what it means to most of them to be Texan.

California lacks enough electricity to pull it off.  We'd have more than enough food, though.  But it will never happen here, because our state would never leave Uncle Sugar's teat.  Our legislators had spent the stimulus money before they knew the amount, in a weaselly attempt to balance this year's budget.   :mad: 

So what teat does Texas suck at?
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