Vaccines

[zahc]

I want to be smart, but I don't know who to believe. This has resulted in inaction.

One one hand, there are the Vaxxers saying omg don't "vaccinate" because autism! (no mention is made of WHAT vaccination(s) are bad; I guess anything delivered in a needle counts).

On the other hand, I have the Evil Medical Establishment (which I trust only very slightly more than Vaxers) saying my kid needs:

(Birth)
    Hepatitis B

(1 to 2 months)
    Hepatitis B

(2 months)
    DTaP
    Hib
    Polio (IPV)
    Pneumococcal (PCV)
    Rotavirus

(4 months)
    DTaP
    Hib
    Polio (IPV)
    Pneumococcal (PCV)
    Rotavirus

(6 months)
    DTaP
    Hib
    Pneumococcal (PCV)
    Rotavirus

(6 to 18 months)
    Hepatitis B
    Polio (IPV)

(12 to 15 months)
    Hib
    MMR
    Pneumococcal (PCV)
    Varicella

(12 to 23 months)
    Hepatitis A

(15 to 18 months)
    DTaP

Not to mention "optional" vaccines like chicken pox.

Neither the vaxxers or the ME can be correct, because vaccines are not even remotely the same...otherwise there wouldn't be so many different ones. So clearly some of them are more useful/important than others. I suspect the EME is shoveling me everything the FDA will approve.

My kid was born at home, is breastfed, and doesn't go to daycare. He's perfectly healthy, and even the EME admit these will cause "adverse reactions" including fever in up to 1/3 of children, so I'm not super enthusiastic about giving my kid his first antibody cocktail.

Discuss.

[mtnbkr]

You can believe Jenny McCarthy or you can believe doctors.  Your choice.

My kids were vaccinated and are doing fine.  I was vaccinated, as was my wife.

The vaccine-autism link was disproved and the guy who first started it recanted.

Chris

[charby]

Many of those diseases can kill a child.

Modern vaccines and modern medicine is why many children make it to adulthood compared to the past.

I'm not going to tell you what to do with your kid, but you may want to weigh out the risks of vaccination with what would happened if you kiddo was infected with Polio or Mumps. 

[mtnbkr]

Many of those diseases can kill a child.

Modern vaccines and modern medicine is why many children make it to adulthood compared to the past.

I'm not going to tell you what to do with your kid, but you may want to weigh out the risks of vaccination with what would happened if you kiddo was infected with Polio or Mumps. 

Or the risks presented by the unvaccinated to the rest of society by creating islands of potential vectors.  There's a proper term for this, but the issue is that without a very significant portion of the population vaccinated, diseases are able to gain a foothold in that population.

Chris

[zahc]

My kids were vaccinated and are doing fine.  I was vaccinated, as was my wife.

Vaccinated WITH WHAT?

See this is actually what's bothering me...the word "vaccinated", like it's meaningful. What does that mean? They keep coming up with new vaccines all the time. Some of them work better than others. Some diseases are more prevalent and more dangerous than others. The vaccines are not at all alike. What does it mean to say "a vaccine" is good?

I'm not arguing the actual philosophy of vaccination, or if vaccination CAN work, or if it's a valid concept. It's not even on my radar to be "pro vaccine" or "anti vaccine". But what does that have to do with choice to get any individual vaccine? The recommended vaccine schedules were chosen by SOMEONE--probably the CDC and WHO. Am I just supposed to "trust my mechanic" and nod and have him shoot whatever he wants to bill my insurance company for into my kid?

You may want to weigh out the risks of vaccination with what would happened if you kiddo was infected with Polio or Mumps.

Of course; that's the trick...what are the chances my kid (with his low risk factors) will be one of the 300-per-year that get it, versus the certain, but probably very minor effects of the shot?

[mtnbkr]

Which vaccines?  More than likely the ones in your list above for my kids (they're 9 and 4).  I remember looking at the list each time a kid was due for shots just to see what they were getting, but I didn't commit them to memory.  I don't know what I got, but as a 40yo, probably not quite everything in that list.  I had measles around 5, so maybe NOT MMR?

The only side effect either of my girls suffered was a mild fever (100 or below). 

I'm not a doctor or even a nurse.  All I know is the diseases prevented by the vaccines above are worse than the vaccines and their likely side effects.  Most of them are pretty common in communities with little or no vaccination programs.  In addition, unless your kids are going to be kept away from society for life, they will eventually be exposed to potential vectors for those illnesses.

Take DTaP for example.  I can't speak to the D portion, but the T&P vaccines are pretty damn important for kids.  FWIW, Pertussis (whooping cough) is making a comeback due to the anti-vaccine crowd and has killed kids.  Tetanus is nothing to sneer at either.

Chris

[roo_ster]

Every action has concomitant risks. 

In this case the action of vaccination and the action of avoiding vaccination.  I looked into it and am convinced the risks of vaccinating are orders of magnitude less than the risks of not vaccinating my kids.  If you care about math, you will get you & yours vaccinated early & often.

So, we make sure our kiddos have every childhood vaccine that comes down the pike.  My wife gets the usual adult vacs, plus more because she works at a hospital.  I had beau coup vacs in the service, due to the environments we were likely to visit(1).  I am looking to renew all those & more because of #1 below.

1.  Lots of foreigners coming to the USA these days, many carrying diseases we usually do not face in America.  We are less than 24hours from Africa, the Hemorrhagic Fever Stewpot of the world.  Some of these folks comply with regs and get their required shots.  Some pay $$$ and lie about their vacs.  Some come here illegally and cough on everyone they meet.  Can you say, "Typhoid Maria?" 

2. Whatever you think of the morality homosexual behavior, the biological reality is that a large portion of the homosexual male subculture is one great stimulant-fueled petri dish.  And the social reality looks like it is increasing with frequency.  Pathogens can (and do) tear though the male homosexual community like wildfire.  Bisexuals and black men on the down low dip into that dish upon occasion and bring back more than just memories into their other relationships.  Some of those pathogens, like HIV(2), are mercifully weak and have difficulty hopping into the rest of the population.  TB, meningitis, and others, are a bit more robust and are more successful in breaking out of that sub-culture.






(1) "Today you are getting vaccinated for yellow fever and plague."

(2) Gotta really work at transmission.  IV drug use and anal sex give HIV its best odds of transmission.  The other methods reduce the probability of infection to remarkably close to zero.

[Brad Johnson]

Vaccinated WITH WHAT?

Uh, vaccine that helps guard against childhood illnesses?

Dude, turn off YouTube, turn on the common sense filters, cut back on FaceBook, loosen the tinfoil, and stop digging for some oddball way to justify not getting your kids started on their proper vaccine regimen. 

If you don't want to do it for personal reasons, then don't.  That's fine.  People do it all the time.  But don't try grasping at pop-medicine straws to find an all-encompassing medical reason for not doing it.  There isn't one.  That is, unless you completely ignore many decades of proven, sound medical science and go with the FaceBook R_x crowd.

Brad

[roo_ster]

To reinforce what Brad just wrote, the two things that likely increased mean human lifespan more than any others are:
1. Public sanitation (sewers & water, etc.)
2. Vaccination

Just because we live in a time/place where the horrors of public sanitation and lack of vaccines don't assault us every day, doesn't mean they are not still out there.

[charby]

Of course; that's the trick...what are the chances my kid (with his low risk factors) will be one of the 300-per-year that get it, versus the certain, but probably very minor effects of the shot?

Does your kid ever leave the house, play with other kids, eat a restaurant? Do you or your wife ever leave the house, associate with other people or eat a restaurant?

If you answer yes to one or more your kid is not at low risk factors.

[TechMan]

SWMBO and I discussed not vaccinating the little guy for about 2 seconds and we both agreed that the risk of not giving him the vaccines was way greater than giving him the vaccines.  Look at it this way you have one "major study" that was recanted vs. to quote Brad "many decades of proven, sound medical science."

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/autism/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2013/03/29/vaccines-not-linked-to-autism-again/
http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2013/04/15/temple-grandin-is-wrong-on-vaccines-and-autism/

[K Frame]

To reinforce what Brad just wrote, the two things that likely increased mean human lifespan more than any others are:
1. Public sanitation (sewers & water, etc.)
2. Vaccination

Just because we live in a time/place where the horrors of public sanitation and lack of vaccines don't assault us every day, doesn't mean they are not still out there.

I've seen many articles that say that antibiotics are at the top of the list, actually.


Every few years polio or German measles will rip through the Amish communities, and the outcome is NOT pretty.

[K Frame]

One of the claimed "causes" of vaccinational autism was thiomersal, a preservative. Numerous studies in Europe and Canada have concluded that there is no link between the preservative and autism.

Still, thiomersal was outlawed in Europe. And the number of autism cases continued to rise.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

and lets not forget the author of the recanted study?  had his own vaccine he wanted to market and needed to create space in the market.  worked too he made 30 mill with the help of useful idiots

[RoadKingLarry]

**Warning Anecdotal**

Most of the anti-vaccine crowd I have met are also firmly in the chem-trail, 9/11 truthers, UFO aliens crowd.

Talk to your family doctor about your concerns.

[Poper]

Still, thiomersal was outlawed in Europe. And the number of autism cases continued to rise.

I have often wondered how the rise in the number of cases of autism is associated with the change in the methodology of diagnosis?  My step-son's significant other has a brother diagnosed and "high level functioning autistic".  Under most circumstances he is very "normal" (whatever that is ) and is not violent.  However, he is at times a little "odd" in his perception of particular individuals or reaction(s) to specific stimuli.

When I was growing up, mid '50's & 60's, such a kid was not usually considered autistic.  Maybe a little strange and often thought just not as smart as the average kid.

It's kind of like the medical definition of "high cholesterol".  What's considered high today was normal 25 years ago.  Notice how the definitions change and how the proportions of "good to bad" cholesterol continue to change, too?  Not long ago caffeine was considered very bad.  Now not so much.

With all of the above, I wonder about the actual increase in instances of autism.  I doubt it is because of vaccination, tho.

Poper

[Scout26]

My attorney has/had polio as a child.  He has spent his life on braces and crutches dragging his pretty much useless legs around.  He contracted it about a year before the vaccine came out/became widespread.

If you want, go google/bing the rates of various diseases before and after a vaccine was created.

Polio: 1950 - 33,000 cases.   Since 1998 - 2  (In the US)
Smallpox: 1950 - 50,000,000 cases.  Since 1980 - 0 (Worldwide numbers)

Vaccination works.

[BobR]

I received tons of childhhod vacs, thanks to an Army dad and we traveled the world. Then as an adult I got even more, thanks to worlwide travel with the Navy. Now I am often called an obstinate SOB, I wonder if that could be because of the vacs?

But really, if you are concerned about the number of vaccines at any one given time, which will most likely cause discomfort, fever and diminished appetite for a few days, then, by all means. talk to you provider about an alternate vaccine schedule that spreads them out a little more.

Or don't, afterall, it is your job as a parent to make these hard decisions.

This is just one I am familiar with. (I'm sorry about the website)      

http://www.oprah.com/health/Dr-Sears-Alternative-and-CDCs-Childhood-Vaccine-Schedules/print/1

bob

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

I have often wondered how the rise in the number of cases of autism is associated with the change in the methodology of diagnosis?  My step-son's significant other has a brother diagnosed and "high level functioning autistic".  Under most circumstances he is very "normal" (whatever that is ) and is not violent.  However, he is at times a little "odd" in his perception of particular individuals or reaction(s) to specific stimuli.

When I was growing up, mid '50's & 60's, such a kid was not usually considered autistic.  Maybe a little strange and often thought just not as smart as the average kid.

It's kind of like the medical definition of "high cholesterol".  What's considered high today was normal 25 years ago.  Notice how the definitions change and how the proportions of "good to bad" cholesterol continue to change, too?  Not long ago caffeine was considered very bad.  Now not so much.

With all of the above, I wonder about the actual increase in instances of autism.  I doubt it is because of vaccination, tho.

Poper

great points   i would draw a parallel with the latest zomg child lead poisoning hoopla
the great increase in cases?
happens when you drop the lead level threshold by 1/2

[lupinus]

I'm a bit of a vaccine minimalist.

Vaccinate for things likely to kill or serious *expletive deleted*ck you up.

Forgo the ones for things with a low chance said killing or *expletive deleted*ing you up.

[zahc]

Polio: 1950 - 33,000 cases.   Since 1998 - 2  (In the US)
Smallpox: 1950 - 50,000,000 cases.  Since 1980 - 0 (Worldwide numbers)

So, if there are only 2 cases of polio a year, why get a vaccine?

I'm well aware of the "herd immunity" argument for vaccines, but nobody gets smallpox vaccines anymore, right, except military people who might be exposed to bioweapons. Nobody says "the smallpox vaccine worked so well to eradicate smallpox, let's all keep taking it".


Anyway, I talked with my pediatrician and we kind of decided a reduced vaccination schedule.

[Jamisjockey]

the risks of vaccinating are orders of magnitude less than the risks of not vaccinating my kids. 

This. This this this this this. 

And this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield#Fraud_and_conflict_of_interest_allegations

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

there are also things that won't screw you up but will screw up others that you expose by your choices.  rubella
http://www.nhs.uk/chq/pages/1104.aspx?categoryid=54&subcategoryid=137

i was not anti vaccine but i did take a hard look before i decided to vaccinate mine.  including hpv.
i think it was my responsibility to make an informed decision.
i do use an old school aid
i have a gp a couple years younger than me with kids a lil older than mine. i asked him and some others if their kids were vaccinated. strangely all the med pros kids were.  
jenny mcarthy did her best work sans clothes  not my pick for things cerebral

[Regolith]

So, if there are only 2 cases of polio a year, why get a vaccine?

Because there are still disease vectors for it.

Ok, so we are down to 2 cases, and lets say a lot of people decide to stop vaccinating for it because there are "only" two cases. Now those 2 cases grow to 4, then 16, then 64...etc etc. etc. Not too long after we have a full blown polio epidemic again. Maybe not as big as the last one because vaccines will be brought out again, but do you really want to risk your kid being one of the unlucky ones who caught it before everyone decided to pull their heads back out of their ass?

It happened with pertussis, and is starting to happen again with other diseases. It's becoming trendy to not vaccinate kids, and as a result a lot of diseases that were more or less relegated to the third world are coming back in fairly large numbers.

[charby]

I'm a bit of a vaccine minimalist.

Vaccinate for things likely to kill or serious *expletive deleted* you up.

Forgo the ones for things with a low chance said killing or *expletive deleted* you up.

Even the little things can screw you up.

Influenza kills millions each year globally.