Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: White Horseradish on May 20, 2012, 10:43:56 PM
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Can I have a bit of a logic check? If I can roll it and I am not pulling in the clutch in, then it's in neutral, right? If it's in neutral, I should be able to kick it over, right?
I stomped on the kickstarter, and it won't budge. I haven't tried electric start because I don't have a battery in it yet. Is this serious trouble, or could this be something stupid simple?
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Could it be your drive chain or belt is broken?
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Pull the plug and try to kick it with the ignition off! To make sure it hasn't filled with fuel and hydrolocked.
jim
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The first rule of restoring an old bike is: The motorcycle is worse than you thought.
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Pull the plug and try to kick it with the ignition off! To make sure it hasn't filled with fuel and hydrolocked.
jim
Tried that. It still won't budge. I have a bad feeling about this.
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Do you do your clutch work? Maybe something in a bind?
If you are just starting on this project I would split the top and bottom ends to see where the problem is.
jim
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Do you do your clutch work? Maybe something in a bind?
Dunno. But I have a fresh clutch in a pail of oil.
If you are just starting on this project I would split the top and bottom ends to see where the problem is.
jim
I might have to try that.
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Sounds like something is stuck.
With the plugs out put it in gear and try to roll the bike.
If the pistons are siezed it could get real ugly and expensive to fix.
Time for a cost analysis. I'd gues that a top end rebuild will cost substantially more than the value of the bike even if you are able to do all the work yourself and don't have to buy any special tools if you can even get parts.
Those little Hondas were nifty little machines but they weren't designed with ease of rebuild as a consideration.
Good luck.
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If I can roll it and I am not pulling in the clutch in, then it's in neutral, right?
Could it be between gears? I don't know if that would cause your problem or not.
bob
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This is a restoration that hasn't run in a while right? 10 to 1 the rings are rusted to the cylinder walls.
Pull all the plugs, and put a bunch (like 1/4 cup per cyl) of good penetrating oil in the top end of the cylinders. Marvel Mystery Oil or PB Blaster works well here. WD-40 isn't going to gut it.
Let it sit at least overnight, 24 hrs is better. Then try to turn the engine over. If it hasn't freed up by then you're going to have to crack the cases. Assuming it worked make sure you drain the oil and put fresh in, as well as get all the liquid out of the cylinders before you try to run it.
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Exactly what Dogmush said. I will add that turning it over with a wrench on the end of the crankshaft gives you more leverage than the kickstarter.
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This is a restoration that hasn't run in a while right? 10 to 1 the rings are rusted to the cylinder walls.
Pull all the plugs, and put a bunch (like 1/4 cup per cyl) of good penetrating oil in the top end of the cylinders. Marvel Mystery Oil or PB Blaster works well here. WD-40 isn't going to gut it.
Let it sit at least overnight, 24 hrs is better. Then try to turn the engine over. If it hasn't freed up by then you're going to have to crack the cases. Assuming it worked make sure you drain the oil and put fresh in, as well as get all the liquid out of the cylinders before you try to run it.
kerosene and transmission fluid make a good penetrating concoction. mix 50/50, and pour in each spark plug hole. let that set for a week topping off as needed, then put the bike in it's highest gear and rock it forward and back a dozen times. repeat every time you walk past it. i had an old bridgestone that locked up between gears (transmission problem) , but then your wheel shouldn't turn either.
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What is the make model and year of this bike?
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Oh, so it's a restoration, and not a bike you've been riding recently?
That's not good. Even if the pistons are rusted in place, and you free them with oil, you're going to need to re-line or re-bore the cylinders and replace rings.
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It's a 1980 Honda CM200 that cost $100. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. I am gonna try, though...
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Oh, so it's a restoration, and not a bike you've been riding recently?
That's not good. Even if the pistons are rusted in place, and you free them with oil, you're going to need to re-line or re-bore the cylinders and replace rings.
Ideally yes.
But for a driver, she'll just smoke a little and use a little oil. You don't need ALL that compression.
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It's a 1980 Honda CM200 that cost $100. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. I am gonna try, though...
I think they only made those for 2 years, before you get too much further make sure you can find parts. I work on older outboards for fun and resale, I have learned to stay away from older one with a production run of a couple years. I finally got rid of a 1970 40hp Mercury 400, this was only made for 2 years and parts were becoming hard impossible to find, I got rid of it for a loss to get out of the garage, ended up trading it for a Mossberg 500.
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It's a 1980 Honda CM200 that cost $100. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. I am gonna try, though...
Small world. I have an 81 CM400 I've been tinkering with.
Mine turns over, though. =D
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I think they only made those for 2 years, before you get too much further make sure you can find parts.
So far I'm into it for the 100 I paid, $40 for the clutch, and $30 for the mirrors.
I'm keeping my eye on CL for something cheep that needs less work.
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Just curious, how do you know the clutch is bad if you can't turn the engine over?
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If you wanted to spend the money, oil of wintergreen makes a great penetrating oil. Pour a little of that into each cylinder and wait a day or so. Plus it will give the bike bike a minty, fresh exhaust! ;)
bob
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Just curious, how do you know the clutch is bad if you can't turn the engine over?
Because when it's in gear and I pull in the clutch it still won't roll.
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Because when it's in gear and I pull in the clutch it still won't roll.
Actually, my CM400 was like this when I got it. I was able to get it to break free by putting the bike on the center stand, 1st gear. Plugs out. Crank with electric starter. Once everything is moving as fast as it's going to go, stomped on the rear brake.
*shrugs* probably not the recommended procedure, but it worked for me.
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My first bike was a CM, a 400 version-cost me 100 as well!
It had over 70 thou on the odometer I must have put another 50 on it at least.
At the end of its life the only way I could start it up in the a.m was because I would park it on tall hills and bump start it on the way down.
I was under the impression you still need a batt anyway, even if kickstarting.
Good luck!
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Another alternative for breaking the pistons loose if it is seized is ATF.
If your object is to ride THAT bike then it's doable but your cost is very likely going to be quite a bit higher than value. If your object is to ride A bike it may be time to cut your losses and find something else.
I'd be surprised if there isn't a Honda CM forum on the net somewhere.
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Another alternative for breaking the pistons loose if it is seized is ATF.
If your object is to ride THAT bike then it's doable but your cost is very likely going to be quite a bit higher than value. If your object is to ride A bike it may be time to cut your losses and find something else.
I'd be surprised if there isn't a Honda CM forum on the net somewhere.
Try BARF ( bay area riders forum ) plenty of good info, as long as you do not bring up politics.
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I'd be surprised if there isn't a Honda CM forum on the net somewhere.
There probably is, but APS knows EVERYTHING. =D
Seriously, I've got good info on AC, appliances, and so on down the alphabet to zombies here.
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Ok, something got unstuck. Maybe the clutch.
Now, if it's in gear, it won't roll. If I pull the clutch, it will. If I stomp on the kickstarter with the clutch disengaged it will go down and come back up. If I leave the clutch engaged it won't budge.
What is the correct way to use the kickstarter? Is it in neutral with clutch engaged? Am I just fighting the stuck pistons now?
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If you can kick it over the pistons either aren't seized (anymore?) or something major has broken. Sounds to me like it is working more or less like it should.
With the trans in neutral you should be able to kick it over with the kick starter, clutch pulled or not. I don't know if that model had a clutch interlock or not but it may, that "probably" would only either electrically lock out the electric starter and/or disable the ignition.
At this point I would pull the plugs, and shoot some light oil in the cylinders and work it some more.
Time for a battery and see if it has any life in it.
Also, I don't remember if it's been mentioned on this thread but don't forget the tires. Even if the tires on it look good, if they are vintage to the bike they are dangerous and need to be replaced. When motorcycle tires get old they get harder than Chinese algebra and they will put you on the ground.
A buddy of mine resurrected a late '80s Goldwing a few year ago, I gave him the same advice. He didn't listen. I miss him.
He retired and I haven't seen him since but he did have the bike slide out from under him with the old tires.
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On the bright side, if parts are hard to find, you could part it out and do pretty well.
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Ok, so if clutch is not pulled and it rolls, it's safe to say it's in neutral.
In this state the kickstarter moves when clutch is pulled and does not move when it is not.
I am not sure it actually moves the engine. I took out a plug, put my finger over the hole, kicked it, and didn't feel anything going in or out.
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I am not sure it actually moves the engine. I took out a plug, put my finger over the hole, kicked it, and didn't feel anything going in or out.
That is not a good sign.
jim
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i had a 69 cl350, and as i recall the kickstarter should work (turn the engine over) regardless of the clutch position. did you try to force it to get the engine unfroze, and feel something snap? if you put it in gear, does the rear wheel turn with the cletch released?
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It's been a while since I've worked on a bike. My Grizzly doesn't have a kickstarter. Anyone have a link to a manual so I can look this over?
jim
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I think your clutch works but your rings are rusted to the cylinder walls. IIRC the kickstarter drives through the clutch so unless it's released (clutch lever out) it will only spin the clutch basket. If the engine is not locked up you will be able to hear it turn over by putting the bike in top gear and rocking it back and forth. Can you see in to the clylinder through the plug hole? If you can see the cylinder walls at all I'll bet you will see some rust. Sorry for the bad news, sounds as if it's time for some sort of penetrating oil to start with.
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Well, I think this is the case as well. Filled cylinders with PB Blaster. Pulled the carb, which was surprisingly clean inside. Dumped it into a bucket of cleaner.
We'll wait and see.
On a side note, I see a few cheap bikes on CL that are "motor turns, doesn't run". Is this typically gummed up carbs? If so, I might look into that. Carburetor cleaning does not intimidate me, I have compressed air.
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....... cheap bikes on CL that are "motor turns, doesn't run". Is this typically gummed up carbs? ....
Or blown head gaskets, or scored cylinder walls, or tossed wrist pin, or fried ignition... ad infinitum
Check compression on everything before you buy it.
Go down that road and you'll wind up with an awesome set of specialty tools. Not a bad thing, but not quite cheap.
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Check compression on everything before you buy it.
That is what I do after I make sure the motor isn't stuck when buying non running motors off craigslist.
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Go down that road and you'll wind up with an awesome set of specialty tools. Not a bad thing, but not quite cheap.
That's where I wound up with cars.
I can't really afford to buy what I want, so I buy cheap and broken and fix it.
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Pulled the valve cover just to take a look.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi285.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fll41%2FJPaganel%2FVehicles%2FHonda%2520CM200%2FIMG_03261.jpg&hash=c1ad096b2b937c9afd3f5b7fa14420943046b918)
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Looks really clean.
Is that rust on that cam journal bolt?
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I think it is. It doesn't make sense, the other bolts look like new.
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Other than the orange spot that looks incredibly clean for that old a bike. But now that you have the moving parts exposed, do they move?
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I'm not familiar with the cm200 or related Honda 250cc engines but they should respond to all the basic tricks needed to free up an engine. With the cover off you can see that it's bone dry inside. Check for any obvious slack in the cam chain and start soaking the cylinder walls through the plug hole. With the internals that dry it seems likely that your pistons and rings could be frozen. Soak the crap out of it for a few weeks and then start rolling it back and forth in gear to break it loose. I don't know the common wisdom about breaking an engine loose by removing an engine cover and turning a nut on the exposed crankshaft so be careful before attempting that method. If it breaks loose continue with a valve adjustment and work your way back to the carbs and electronics from there.
This would never be my first response to a bike problem but with a small 200cc engine that can be handled alone you may consider swapping over to a known good engine. I have dead ended on my cb500 project due to parts cost and availability. If a good engine came my way for a few hundred I'd hand over the cash and be done with it.
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Are you sure you really want a cm200 anyway? Those things are tiny,-the only thing they are really good for is teaching 4 ft tall girls how to use a motorcycle anyway.
I had a friend who tried to use one - he is about 5" 5 - he kept on crashing as it was just to small, he finally got a bigger bike - a 500 and was much better off
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But now that you have the moving parts exposed, do they move?
Nope.
Are you sure you really want a cm200 anyway?
Well, I'd really like something shinier, bigger, newer, and working, but this one is already here. "iwannamotorcycle" is fighting the reality of my bank account.
I am thinking of checking out this Suzuki 450 that a guy has nearby. He says it won't start after years of storage, but that the motor turns.
Those things are tiny,-the only thing they are really good for is teaching 4 ft tall girls how to use a motorcycle anyway.
You know, as it happens, I know a 4ft-tall girl that is thinking about learning... =D
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I am thinking of checking out this Suzuki 450 that a guy has nearby. He says it won't start after years of storage, but that the motor turns.
You know, as it happens, I know a 4ft-tall girl that is thinking about learning... =D
If its one of them GS models from the 80's early 90's I'm envious - they're great mc's
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If its one of them GS models from the 80's early 90's I'm envious - they're great mc's
That's exactly what it is. Guy wants $400. Weather was extra-wet today so I didn't go, I'll call him tomorrow.
There is another guy with a Honda 750 of the same vintage, might check that out, too.