Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MillCreek on April 26, 2016, 10:53:38 PM
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http://www.cbsnews.com/news/5-decade-study-reveals-fallout-from-spanking-kids/
Very large study demonstrates a correlation between spanking children and subsequent bad behaviors in the long run.
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There is an impressive lack of substance in that article.
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There is an impressive lack of substance in that article.
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That's what you get with these modern J-schools. Ever since they left off corporal punishment...
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Know what else is bad for children?
Growing up to be undisciplined shithead SJWs.
Sent from my iPhone. Freaking autocorrect.
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I'm willing to believe that spanking is not the best discipline for all kids but I have trouble believing it is universally "bad for children." Haven't read this study, but the author has been trying to show that spanking is evil for decades.
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I believe spanking has its place in the use of force continuum for children hopefully a place that you don't use very often but I don't ever want my children to think it doesn't exist
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If spanking is so bad, why is it that kids from my generation (virtually all of whom were subject to spanking) turned out generally so much better than younger generations who were spared the "abuse" of being spanked?
There is a difference between "spanking" and "beating."
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I'm willing to believe that spanking is not the best discipline for all kids but I have trouble believing it is universally "bad for children." Haven't read this study, but the author has been trying to show that spanking is evil for decades.
So am I evil or bad, because I was spanked as a child?
Because OBVIOUSLY I'm doing something wrong here...
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I wonder what the correlation is between non-spanking, non-interventional "let the kids run like savages because Johnny's so cute" parents to entitled little shitbirds later in life?
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My father was a school principal back when corporal punishment wasn't just accepted, it was expected. To this day, I still recall how many people later in life eithr laughed with him about being paddled, or thanked him for changing the path they were headed down...
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So am I evil or bad, because I was spanked as a child?
The author of the study would say you are more likely to be violent. I don't hold with that. To be clear, I use spanking when necessary on my children.
I think it is interesting to note that they also admit that 85% of kids these days have been spanked.
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Can y'all see the comments? I was trying to see them, but they won't appear. I have that issue with more news sites lately (using Chrome). I guess the version my company uses is getting behind.
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From the article:
"The irony is that many parents spank when their kids are aggressive. So the child thinks you can use spanking to get what you want - kids learn that," she said.
I've heard this argument before. They never mention whether kids learn to use time-outs or grounding to get what they want.
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I wonder if there are any studies showing the use of spanking vs. other disciplinary techniques by parental educational and income level.
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Can y'all see the comments? I was trying to see them, but they won't appear. I have that issue with more news sites lately (using Chrome). I guess the version my company uses is getting behind.
News sites these days are often horribly shitty and trying to load so much crap it's hard to read them or view comments.
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I wonder if there are any studies showing the use of spanking vs. other disciplinary techniques by parental educational and income level.
What would this mean?
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I wonder what the correlation is between non-spanking, non-interventional "let the kids run like savages because Johnny's so cute" parents to entitled little shitbirds later in life?
That. In spades.
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I believe spanking has its place in the use of force continuum for children hopefully a place that you don't use very often but I don't ever want my children to think it doesn't exist
Spot on.
You don't want to resort to using nuclear weapons to respond to random sniping or an IED. You do want to keep some in the arsenal.
If spanking is so bad, why is it that kids from my generation (virtually all of whom were subject to spanking) turned out generally so much better than younger generations who were spared the "abuse" of being spanked?
There is a difference between "spanking" and "beating."
The first one is very simple, it's due to confirmation bias and that the internet didn't exist when you were young. Kids from your generation were angsty and emotional as well. They just lacked the technology to broadcast it to the world. Give it thirty years and Millennials will be complaining all day that kids are lazy entitled deviants. "Get off my lawn, you young whippersnappers" is as old as humanity.
Second one is also spot on. A significant number of people do not know that difference. If you ever want a couple hours of neutron star density depression inspiring proof that the kids of your generation did not necessarily turn out better, be happy to oblige. You have to buy the beer, though. Not claiming that my generation is better. A sorta ladyfriend does therapy work for criminals, lots of juvs. Couple of them were broken to the point that if humanity had an ounce of sense, we'd put two rounds into their brainstem. People say war is hell. It has nothing on some ordinary seeming homes.
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I wonder if there are any studies showing the use of spanking vs. other disciplinary techniques by parental educational and income level.
I'd be more interested in studies showing spanking vs the child's later earning potential.
And yes, there has to be a distinction between proper spankings applied only when necessary and abuse.
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I'd be more interested in studies showing spanking vs the child's later earning potential.
I am in my mid-50's, was not spanked by my parents, have several grad/professional degrees and make in the six figures per year. I did not spank my children, and they grew up to be happy and successful adults.
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Spot on.
You don't want to resort to using nuclear weapons to respond to random sniping or an IED. You do want to keep some in the arsenal.
This is precisely my philosophy. There are infractions that merit immediate spankings, and generally they are ones that put my child in danger. (E.g. attempting to run into the road.)
Otherwise, there are several levels of punishment and/or warnings before corporal is reached.
The first one is very simple, it's due to confirmation bias and that the internet didn't exist when you were young. Kids from your generation were angsty and emotional as well. They just lacked the technology to broadcast it to the world. Give it thirty years and Millennials will be complaining all day that kids are lazy entitled deviants. "Get off my lawn, you young whippersnappers" is as old as humanity.
While it may be as old as humanity, many of those cultures were precisely right about the spoiled, lazy, entitled, deviants. (Of course, the previous generation is also generally responsible for the attitudes of their progeny...)
If it were not the case, we would not see cultures become decadent and die.
Second one is also spot on. A significant number of people do not know that difference. If you ever want a couple hours of neutron star density depression inspiring proof that the kids of your generation did not necessarily turn out better, be happy to oblige. You have to buy the beer, though. Not claiming that my generation is better. A sorta ladyfriend does therapy work for criminals, lots of juvs. Couple of them were broken to the point that if humanity had an ounce of sense, we'd put two rounds into their brainstem. People say war is hell. It has nothing on some ordinary seeming homes.
Quite true. Disfunction occurred in previous generations. Looking at the numbers*, though, I'm fairly confident to say that it is more prevalent today.
*As an example, from the national center on fathering:
- An estimated 24.7 million children (33%) live absent their biological father.
Source: U.S. Census Bureau, Current Population Survey, “Living Arrangements of Children under 18 Years/1 and Marital Status of Parents by Age, Sex, Race, and Hispanic Origin/2 and Selected Characteristics of the Child for all Children 2010.” Table C3. Internet Release Date November, 2010. - Of students in grades 1 through 12, 39 percent (17.7 million) live in homes absent their biological fathers.
Source: Nord, Christine Winquist, and Jerry West. Fathers’ and Mothers’ Involvement in their Children’s Schools by Family Type and Resident Status. Table 1. (NCES 2001-032). Washington, DC: U.S. Dept of Education, National Center of Education Statistics, 2001. - 57.6% of black children, 31.2% of Hispanic children, and 20.7% of white children are living absent their biological fathers.
Source: Family Structure and Children’s Living Arrangements 2012. Current Population Report. U.S. Census Bureau July 1, 2012.
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I actually never got a spanking. Some well deserved back hands or butt smacks but they were on the fly affairs. Correction more than punishment, I suppose.
Sent from my iPhone. Freaking autocorrect.
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I was spanked. My mother is not the spanking type but she was at her wits end with me taking off in the direction of a road where people liked to hit light speed on a regular basis.
The kiddo at work has had a couple spankings, again, over things where her misbehavior could have actually gotten her killed (what is it with toddlers and traffic? Do they have some sort of internal navigation device that always sends them in the direction of speeding cars?)
I'm also in the camp of it's a last resort. Sometimes you got to do what you got to do and convincing a child not to do certain things so that they will actually survive to cry to their therapist about it one day seems legit to me.
Also, considering the children of the no spank generation... I have to wonder if some more aggression is actually a good thing. I've been pondering lately and have become very frustrated with some people who are legitimately being bullied but are too fearful to fight back. I think our PC culture has labeled too many characteristics in the same black and white way they label everything else and the results are not pretty. The lack of balance has created people who either have too much or none of various characteristics and it messes them up. Aggression may be one of those characteristics that has been overly suppressed. We obviously don't want people who fight too much, but I think we need more people who are actually willing to fight when they need to.
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The spankings I got involved being sent to find a belt, franticly trying to find the one we thought hurt less, Pre-spank lecture, spank, then post-spank talk ending with hugs. About as far from abuse as you can get and still be corporal punishment. I think my Dad hated doing it. Also, I was eligible for spanking from pretty much the earliest age I could do something bad, but by 11 or 12 it wasn't necessary anymore.
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The spankings I got involved being sent to find a belt, franticly trying to find the one we thought hurt less, Pre-spank lecture, spank, then post-spank talk ending with hugs. About as far from abuse as you can get and still be corporal punishment. I think my Dad hated doing it. Also, I was eligible for spanking from pretty much the earliest age I could do something bad, but by 11 or 12 it wasn't necessary anymore.
Very similar, although the belts were only used a couple of times.
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Belts were the standard implement for my mother. And she never used one of her own, wimpy, lady's belts. Noooo -- she always used the widest, heaviest of my father's belts she could find in the closet.
Spankings were not a daily ritual, but let's just say I earned (or at least received) "more than two."
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I still remember my last spanking from my mother.
I don't remember what I did, but I'm sure I deserved it.
No, what is memorable is after I was spanked, defiant little boy turned around and said "didn't hurt!" because it really didn't.
My very rational mother calmly replied "ok, you can just wait til your father gets home."
I STILL am amazed at how stupid that little boy was. I could have kept getting the minimal pain spankings, but Noooooo, I had to try to show I was in charge.
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I still remember my last spanking from my mother.
I don't remember what I did, but I'm sure I deserved it.
No, what is memorable is after I was spanked, defiant little boy turned around and said "didn't hurt!" because it really didn't.
My very rational mother calmly replied "ok, you can just wait til your father gets home."
I STILL am amazed at how stupid that little boy was. I could have kept getting the minimal pain spankings, but Noooooo, I had to try to show I was in charge.
I told my father his open hand didn't hurt. That was when he escalated to fist.
Vis a vis that incident in my case I HAVE to pass on spanking if I am angry. That rule has spared my youngest several times.
The first step to crossing the spank/beat line is uncontrolled anger. I do not want to cross it. EVER
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At my church they advocate spanking ONLY for open and deliberate defiance, and only with with an open palm - never with a belt, wood spoon, switch, etc. Reason for open palm only, especially for dads, is that's too easy to over do without realizing it. Other factor is, never spank while you are angry or otherwise emotional. Have the other parent do it, wait until you're calm, or don't spank at all.
That said, so far we haven't spanked the 2 youngers at all (getting close with 4 year old at times). The 2 olders haven't gotten a spanking in a loooong time, probably not since they were 6 or so.
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At my church they advocate spanking ONLY for open and deliberate defiance, and only with with an open palm - never with a belt, wood spoon, switch, etc. Reason for open palm only, especially for dads, is that's too easy to over do without realizing it. Other factor is, never spank while you are angry or otherwise emotional. Have the other parent do it, wait until you're calm, or don't spank at all.
That said, so far we haven't spanked the 2 youngers at all (getting close with 4 year old at times). The 2 olders haven't gotten a spanking in a loooong time, probably not since they were 6 or so.
Oh I've had the wooden spoon. Ironically they hurt less when they break.
And being whacked upside the head with a loaf of bread. Real, proper, Italian bread. Not squishy white bread? That's a nice thud.
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Dad never knocked me out. But mom did.
I was a smart ass kid and decided to grab mom between shoulders and elbow hold her away outa her reach so she could not hit me.
Tactically sound. Strategically? Not so much.
It made her mad real real man as I watched her face changed and she got madder I realize that I had a problem I couldn't hold her forever and I was going to get creamed when I let go of her.
When I finally let her go I hauled ass for the door and I was not fast enough there was a half gallon ice cream on the counter top and she threw it over hand as hard as she could fot me in the back of the head right as I was make it in the living room drop me like a rock. Ended up with rug burns on my nose and forehead
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I got the belt from my dad a LOT less than I deserved to and only ONCE when I didn't deserve it. In the latter instance, when he realised he screwed up, the guilt almost ate him alive. He begged me to whip him and I wouldn't do it, instead I simply forgave him. Understand I was a big, strong young kid. When I was 12 or so he spanked me and I laughed. OMG but that ticked him off! He literally balled up his fists and shook BUT he held his anger, sent me away, calmed down and found another way to get my attention and also let me know in no uncertain terms that I had a way to go before I was badder than that old marine!
Actions MUST have REAL consequences for anyone to learn right and wrong. Most people don't do "bad" things out of a desire to be considerate of their fellow man, others avoid those things instead out of fear of the consequences of doing those things. It depends on the person. Those consequences can range from a "time-out" to a swat on the tail to "you just lost EVERYTHING but your mattress, blanket and the clothes you need for school until your cranium emerges from your rectum!" depending on your age. When you are older it goes up to a butt whoopin, a fine, losing yer job, going to jail and even getting killed.
I don't consider myself "abused" by my father in the slightest. As a kid I tested his limits and without his guidance I would either be dead or incarcerated a long time ago. I promise you that as a kid, I would NOT have responded well to time-outs or things of that ilk. I had a very vivid imagination and could amuse myself all alone with pretty much nothing for hours. I love, respect and miss my dad dearly. He was a tough, no-nonsense, hard working and hard playing man who disciplined me how and when I needed it. No more (with the single noted exception) and a lot less than I actually deserved.
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In my childhood, I was never hit with anything other than an open palm, and it was only spanking, never slapping or beating.
I don't think I would spank a child today, but I'm a BIG guy whose ex complained that I'd hold her hand too tight, on those occasions she allowed me to hold her hand. Not 100% certain of my force calibration, and would die inside if I actually hurt a child. That plus something like that would make me uncomfortably close to my Dad, IMO, who had one hell of a temper. He never took it out on me or my sister on any of our summer visits, but it did come out, and I watched him put a hole in the hood of his car with a hammer once. That scared me.
Agree with HeroHog that there must be unmistakable and serious consequences for serious wrongdoing. Have no issue with the concept of spanking, and do not believe that it damaged me in any way.
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Also, considering the children of the no spank generation... I have to wonder if some more aggression is actually a good thing. I've been pondering lately and have become very frustrated with some people who are legitimately being bullied but are too fearful to fight back. I think our PC culture has labeled too many characteristics in the same black and white way they label everything else and the results are not pretty. The lack of balance has created people who either have too much or none of various characteristics and it messes them up. Aggression may be one of those characteristics that has been overly suppressed. We obviously don't want people who fight too much, but I think we need more people who are actually willing to fight when they need to.
This reminds me of a stupid "Public Awareness" Commercial:
"You spent hours teaching him how to hit a jump shot, you spent afternoons teaching him how to hit an open receiver, you spent years teaching him how to hit the curve, but how much have you taught him what not to hit? Teach your son that ALL violence against women is wrong"
I about hit the roof on that. No, ALL violence against women is not wrong. Violence against women is exactly as wrong as violence against men- acceptable only in the case of defending yourself or others.
Violence against innocent people, man or woman, is wrong. Violence against aggressors, man or woman, is not wrong. There may be considerations about amount of force, but not about force itself.
(Have I made this rant already?)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/xTiTnrSvl7zmTt4e88/giphy.gif)
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There is also a difference between a swat on the behind, to instantaneously correct minor behavior (mom and especially grandma) and a spanking, the "Wait until your father gets home."..."Go get the switch/belt/yardstick." kind.
Growing up, minor transgressions might earn you the occasional swat on the backside. Especially from Grandma, if you were within wooden spoon range. Also any other adults (aunts, uncles, neighbors) had permission to swat your backside, if you needed it.
I only remember being spanked 2 (or is it) 3 times. Once for setting the backyard on fire, once by the Dean of Boys (with a paddle) for fighting in school, and then again at home (Yardstick) for the same offense.
Disrespect, defiance (minor), and disobedience would earn you a swat or if your were being sassy or mouthy, a slap. You had to really screw-up to earn a spanking.
And yes, there is a HUGE difference between spanking/swatting and beating. A swat/spanking is used to instantly correct unsocial behavior. There is no excuse to beat a child.
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I think it depends on the personalities. Both child and adult. I am marginal at being in control enough to spank appropriately. Hence both mine got1or 2 from me all before age of 3. I am like Eric. I would off myself if I hurt a kid and I would rather error on the side of leniency. I will say that I am willing to drop a teen age boy in a heartbeat if they earn it.
In my family once I got big enough to whip my dad all hitting stopped except for 2 alcohol related incidents involving younger brother
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I don't disagree on that. My mother was more likely to give immediate feedback. My Dad would always wait a few minutes and talk through it with a lecture. He never laid a hand on us if he was mad. And he used his hand probably more than a belt, but I remember looking for a belt. We had a wooden paddle at times also.
Swats with a fly swatter handle can hurt also. Half the hurt when you are little is in your head.
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IMHO, and granted I'm not the most qualified of individuals to have an opinion in the matter, but generally I've noticed if you're hitting your kid in anger, you're far more likely to take it too far. And you're just taking out your anger by beating someone far smaller than you.
Plenty of folks have already commented on that, and I completely agree. There's no way to issue blanket guidance to a parent except for essentially common sense type stuff. Feed your kids healthy food, make them get exercise, encouraging activities is a good idea, don't beat your kids because you are angry, etc.
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Another thing my dad did was tell all my friends parents to "...treat him like you do your own kids. Punish him like you would yours and when I get home, he's going to have to deal with my punishment as well." Heck, I was paddled my 1st day in Jr high school math class! BTW: I am friends with that teacher, who was also my football coach, to this day!
My dad was also one to "cool off" before and any spankings. I would be sent to the bathroom to "think about what I had done" and he and mom would sit at the kitchen table and talk a bit. The waiting was worse than the whipping to be honest. When he came in, he explained what I had done to deserve the punishment and why I was getting punished and that he didn't enjoy it but that it instead hurt him to have to do it. After all that, I would lean over the toilet and I'd get the belt across my butt (fully clothed, no mare butt stuff) several good pops. It would sting a minute and that was that.
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Violence against innocent people, man or woman, is wrong.
So we can beat hermaphrodites with impunity?
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So we can beat hermaphrodites with impunity?
Only if you're a strict-constructionist.
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Only if you're a strict-constructionist.
Can we include trans if we're re-constructionist?
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Can we include trans if we're re-constructionist?
I see what you done there.
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http://www.cbsnews.com/news/5-decade-study-reveals-fallout-from-spanking-kids/
Very large study demonstrates a correlation between spanking children and subsequent bad behaviors in the long run.
liberal crap. Certainly NOT true.
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liberal crap. Certainly NOT true.
Actually, I can see how it might be; an inherently ill-mannered child is certainly likely to get more spankings than a very good one, and those behaviors tend to continue.
The liberal idiots doing the study just can't figure out which is cause and which is effect.
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Hey ! I thought spanking was supposed to be bad for the child.
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liberal crap. Certainly NOT true.
And you say this based upon your extensive academic or clinical research on the subject?
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And you say this based upon your extensive academic or clinical research on the subject?
Which academics or clinical researchers do you know that are experts on the subject?
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Which academics or clinical researchers do you know that are experts on the subject?
I would venture that the authors of the study, published in a peer-reviewed reputable medical journal, would qualify. So yes, I would tend to give their professional opinion more credence over a layperson with no special training or experience in the field.
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And you say this based upon your extensive academic or clinical research on the subject?
based on as much scientific data as anyone else posting here on the issue. laughing.
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based on as much scientific data as anyone else posting here on the issue. laughing.
So you didn't read the article. I did. Here, let me Google that for you so you can read up: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=0&q=Spanking+and+Child+Outcomes:+Old+Controversies+and+New+Meta-Analyses.&hl=en&as_sdt=0,48&as_vis=1&lookup=0