Author Topic: Renewable energy wrecks environment  (Read 13356 times)

roo_ster

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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2007, 06:09:34 PM »
What G98 said.
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roo_ster

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Firethorn

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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2007, 06:27:29 PM »
Starting where we agree. Yes, nuclear should be expanded. I used to live less than 10 miles from a reactor, for all I care they can build one a mile from me. Damn NIMBY people are the only reason it won't become the majority answer. I do think it should be expanded, but to mollify the NIMBYs, you can't make it the majority answer. Also, we agree (I think) on having a variety of answers. We already have some hydroelectric for example, and even if it cannot be expanded further, keeping what we have and running it at full capacity is a good option. Wind should be expanded, especially in the west. If cattle are willing to graze under them, the footprint becomes very small.

Windmills do have a pretty good economy in limited locations.  You need a place with as steady and constant wind as you can get - too much wind and you have to shut the turbines down, not enough and you don't produce much power.  They do have a fairly small footprint, and cattle do quite willingly graze under them.  They're a good answer in the correct location.  My parent's old town had a blurb in the newspaper how the electric company was shutting down the two turbines outside of town because wind levels couldn't justify the continued maintenance to keep them running, much less installing more.

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I don't know much about geothermal, haven't heard about it any in years. If the concept of getting energy from the Earths heat was feasible, I admit I would support it.

Again, limited locations.  Also, many geothermal places involve some nasty chemicals down there, which in any scheme to gain power from the heat source you run the risk of releasing them.  Not to mention that they eat many of the materials we have, making them uneconomic(at this time).

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First, when I said a few, I meant blanket the roof. Just clarifying.

I posted two solutions.  The smaller install is ~163 square feet of solar panels.  The larger is 2,857 square feet of solar panels

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Second, cost. Right now it is a bad trade. However, I see long run potential for solar. If we spend the money now to develop the tech, we could put solar out there far cheaper. I am rarely optimistic, but I am regarding science. If you consider the massive increase in discovery in the last century, and project half that into the next, I can see great breakthroughs made.

There's plenty of stuff in the pipeline, but I view it like I view many of the ethanol plants under construction; the technology isn't really there yet, and installing current gen stuff is mostly a waste of time, because you'll have to replace the panels/rebuild the plant to get the better economy.

If the factor wasn't 12 for 1 it wouldn't be as big of a deal.  If you could justify it as having a straight break even point within 5-10 years, you'd probably be able to get loans from the bank for the install.

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So, what do I see foresee? If solar was developed, I could see solar panels becoming so well advanced they were used to augment a cars internal electrical supply. Imagine that for a moment, solar panels so efficient that they can keep a car running on a sunny day. Impossible today, but in a century or two I can see it happening. Long before then though, I could easily see them being placed on houses cheaply and greatly reducing the need for other methods.

Phoenix, AZ, a high solar energy area, only averages 5.7 kWh per DAY per square meter.  Assuming 100% effective solar panels, that'd give your average car about 20 miles per day, the solar panels would act as a trickle charger during the day.  More realistic efficiencies would limit you to 5 miles a day.

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It sounds pie in the sky, but just keep in mind how far computers have come in the past few decades, let alone other advances. Someday in the future, I can see solar being the dominant form of energy production, but we need to keep the research going today. I don't deny for a second that right now solar isn't the best method, but then again, all advances take research. I hope they keep working on it.

Computers are data manipulation devices.  Physics has proven to be much harder - just look at the automobile, which would be an efficient spaceship if it'd improved as fast as computers.

Firethorn

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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2007, 06:40:15 PM »
Nothing like watching your town turn into a ghost town and wondering that if you leave, you'll ever be able to come home again.

I'm not as hot on nuclear as I used to be.

Man, you're ancient..   rolleyes   cheesy

We are talking about an accident that happened when this car was new.

for that matter, chemical accidents can be quite nasty, and the railway accident in Minot, ND killed more people.

For the record, we made substantial changes in the way nuclear power plants were run after TMI.  A new philosophy of safety was put in place, with the result that nuclear power kills hardly anybody.  Workers are most at risk - and mostly when they're being stupid, like the Japanese waste processors that violated around a hundred regs.

You're safer living near a nuclear plant than a coal plant - you're statistically far more likely to die from lung cancer caused by the pollution from the coal plant.  Fact is, civilization needs power.  For the last 25 years Nuclear power has had about the best safety record going - Even TMI is noted to be the only multi million industrial accident where nobody was killed.  The other specter - Chernobyl - well, that wouldn't have been approved in the western countries as it was a critically flawed design.  It was made to produce weapon material mainly, so power was actually just a useful side effect...

K Frame

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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2007, 06:59:06 PM »
"We are talking about an accident that happened when this car was new."

Wow, that's really breathtakingly... NON-pertinent to the conversation.

"For the record, we made substantial changes in the way nuclear power plants were run after TMI."

WOW! REALLY? I had NO idea! I guess that's why Peach Bottom in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, has had nearly 400 unscheduled reactor shutdowns in those 30 years.

How silly of me. On January 1, 1980, nuclear generation achieved unparalleled, unqualified, perfection! Accidents, incidents, errors, oversights, and omissions have been completely eliminated!

I feel SO much safer knowing that "experts" can tell us, with "authority," that nothing can possibly go wrong ever again!

And the absolute icing on the cake is you telling me that!

GODDAMN IT, I FEEL SO GOOD ABOUT IT THAT I WANT A NUCLEAR REACTOR ON THE LOT NEXT TO MY HOUSE!

You know, disaster lurks where complacency and hubris live.
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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2007, 07:13:24 PM »
The problem with nuclear power plants in the U.S. is that they are all built differently, rather than cookie cutter from already operating plants.  Why?  Because power companies are 'for profit' enterprises that are, by statute, entitled to to a 10% return on investment.  So, the more they can spend on construction translates into that much more billing revenue.  Capitalism is not always the most efficient way of doing things.

SomeKid

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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2007, 08:02:13 PM »
Riley, that isn't capitalism causing that, that is government regulations companies are trying to live within and still garner a good profit.

Mike, as I noted in my second post, I would love to see solar become so cheap and effective we didn't really need much else. While I have no problem with a few new nuclear plants, I wouldn't want to have hundreds more pop up. Ideally, solar would become efficient. Even if solar goes disastrously wrong, you only lose a few bucks. Unless it falls on your head, you are pretty safe.

Fire, you misunderstand. I am not saying we should go nuts on todays tech. I am saying we should go nuts (by go nuts, I mean focus our energy/$$$) on research. The atom bomb was a fictitious concept until someone figured out how to do it. I think it will be the same with solar. Your math regarding solar on a car is worthless, because I wasn't talking about doing that today. I am talking about in the future.

The biggest thing that annoys me with all the energy debates now, is everyone says 'just go solar' or 'use ethanol' when instead we should focus on R&D a while longer.

The best answer for today however, was what I posted earlier.


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The answer isn't JUST nuclear, the same as the answer is not JUST 'other' types. A mixture would be best.

Paddy

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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2007, 08:49:16 PM »
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Riley, that isn't capitalism causing that, that is government regulations companies are trying to live within and still garner a good profit.
The poor babies. You're breakin' my heart.

SomeKid

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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2007, 12:06:59 AM »
I wasn't trying to. I was just pointing out that it wasn't capitalism.

drewtam

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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2007, 08:53:08 AM »
"We are talking about an accident that happened when this car was new."
Wow, that's really breathtakingly... NON-pertinent to the conversation.
"For the record, we made substantial changes in the way nuclear power plants were run after TMI."
WOW! REALLY? I had NO idea! I guess that's why Peach Bottom in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, has had nearly 400 unscheduled reactor shutdowns in those 30 years.
How silly of me. On January 1, 1980, nuclear generation achieved unparalleled, unqualified, perfection! Accidents, incidents, errors, oversights, and omissions have been completely eliminated!
I feel SO much safer knowing that "experts" can tell us, with "authority," that nothing can possibly go wrong ever again!
And the absolute icing on the cake is you telling me that!
GODDAMN IT, I FEEL SO GOOD ABOUT IT THAT I WANT A NUCLEAR REACTOR ON THE LOT NEXT TO MY HOUSE!
You know, disaster lurks where complacency and hubris live.

Your right, nuclear is not "perfectly safe". Nothing in this world will ever be "perfectly safe".

But the FACT remains, nuclear is much safer than coal. How much safer? If you include the radioactive material and cancers caused by coal, nuclear plants would need a melt down as bad Chernobyl every month to keep up with coal fatalities.

http://www.uic.com.au/nip22.htm
Chernobyl Accident

"28 people died within four months from radiation or thermal burns, 19 have subsequently died, and there have been around nine deaths from thyroid cancer apparently due to the accident: total 56 fatalities as of 2004."


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5174391/
Deadly power plants? Study fuels debate
Thousands of early deaths tied to emissions

"MSNBC staff and news service reports
Updated: 4:56 p.m. CT June 9, 2004
"Health problems linked to aging coal-fired power plants shorten nearly 24,000 lives a year, including 2,800 from lung cancer, ..."


Drew
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K Frame

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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2007, 09:01:09 AM »
Everyone assumes that I'm not a big fan of nuclear power because it might kill some people.

Screw the people. I don't care about the people.

I'm not a big fan of nuclear power because an accident has the potential to render a large area of land uninhabitable for decades, if not centuries.

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Firethorn

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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2007, 11:11:05 AM »
Wow, that's really breathtakingly... NON-pertinent to the conversation.

I was trying to point out that state of the art has advanced considerably during that time, I'm sorry that I failed.

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WOW! REALLY? I had NO idea! I guess that's why Peach Bottom in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, has had nearly 400 unscheduled reactor shutdowns in those 30 years.

And it's probably one of the worst on record.  Besides, an unscheduled shutdown is, relativly speaking, a ho-hum occurance.  Safety functions worked and prevented greater damage.  Depending on what went wrong, the plant could come back up in hours or days.

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How silly of me. On January 1, 1980, nuclear generation achieved unparalleled, unqualified, perfection! Accidents, incidents, errors, oversights, and omissions have been completely eliminated!

No, it's been a constant improvement process.  Back in the 70s nukes had a capacity factor below 50.  Today most plants operate at over 90.  Many have also been uprated, to the point that increased availability and capacity was equivalent to a new plant being built for years.

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I feel SO much safer knowing that "experts" can tell us, with "authority," that nothing can possibly go wrong ever again!

Things can go wrong, however failure modes have been considered and compensated for with layered defenses to the point that the odds of a chernobyl style disaster happening again is pretty much zilch in american plants.

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GODDAMN IT, I FEEL SO GOOD ABOUT IT THAT I WANT A NUCLEAR REACTOR ON THE LOT NEXT TO MY HOUSE!

Glad you can see the light!  I'll even move in next to you.  I'm sure we can get some good paying jobs at the plant.   laugh

I'm going off from statistics - which, even including a chernobyl style disaster every year would still be safer than the real world effects of coal power.  And no, I'm not talking about CO2.  If I had my way, I'd shut down all the coal plants, replacing them with nuclear ones.  That we'd meet the kyoto accord goals almost by accident is just a bonus.

Mike, as for rendering land uninhabitable - remember all the land rendered 'uninhabitable' from chemical contaminants?  How about the times when a few rivers caught fire?

K Frame

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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2007, 03:25:15 PM »
"the odds of a chernobyl style disaster happening again is pretty much zilch in american plants."

Funny, I remember after the 1986 shuttle disaster a NASA official saying pretty much the same thing...

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280plus

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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2007, 04:50:28 PM »
I remember them saying the Titanic was unsinkable, Well, I don't ACTUALLY remember them saying it but I've HEARD that they said it.

Anyhoo, I just stopped by to say I was following this little car with a little hippie dude in it just the other day and all over the car it's saying Uses bio fuel blah blah. Man, that car was smoking black and stinkin' to high heaven. Worse than a bus. Go figure.  rolleyes
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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2007, 09:31:20 AM »
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No backup or retraction warranted. It's a feel-good technology, needing only a built-in carbon credit printer to be complete. Talk to me in 5 years when the nickel-metal-hydride battery pack in that Toyota Prius (called Pious in some circles) has to be changed out.  (How come nobody wants to talk about that, hmmm?) My son's Suburban will be on the road long after the Prius has been made into Chinese kitchen utensils for sale at Walmart. That is, unless one somehow gets all those Toyota hybrids to go for 200,000 miles or more. (Easy for a Suburban, Tahoe, or Hummer, built on a real truck chassis) Then, after 4 battery changes, it just might amortize the R&D energy that went into making it, as well as the subsidies (aka, tax credits) offered to manufacturers and buyers.  Think a Prius plus whatever it was recycled into while the GM truck chassis continues to roll over that timeframe.
Just a lot of speculation and unproven claims.  And it doesn't even address your original statement:
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That's why a new Toyota Prius is more enviromentally damaging than a new Chevrolet Suburban.

Firethorn

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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2007, 01:32:56 PM »
"the odds of a chernobyl style disaster happening again is pretty much zilch in american plants."

Funny, I remember after the 1986 shuttle disaster a NASA official saying pretty much the same thing...

Please note that I didn't say that it couldn't happen, and I listed one failure mode.  There could still be unknown failure modes.

As for the shuttle, I'll note that the second accident was unrelated to the first, tiles damaged by falling foam vs faulty O-rings.  Frankly, I'm not impressed with the shuttle's safety record.  It operates far closer to the edge of disaster than any nuclear plant.

Still, we've logged orders of magnitude more hours on nuclear plants than we have on shuttles; there are more of them, and they're pretty much in constant operation.

If nothing else, on my nuclear power expansion spree I'd end up replacing the old nuclear plants once I've gotten rid of all the coal ones.  Especially if we actually standardize the design, we'd be able to share data on failure modes.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2007, 03:58:09 PM »
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Rush was on a sputtering rant yesterday about the Prius.  Which is odd-he claims to be a big 'free market, give the customer what they want' proponent.

Did he claim that manufacturers should not make enough hybrids to meet demand?  If not, then I want a retraction, too.  As long as people want hybrids, I'm sure Rush favors the rights of capitalists to profit from it.
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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2007, 04:10:56 PM »
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Did he claim that manufacturers should not make enough hybrids to meet demand?  If not, then I want a retraction, too.  As long as people want hybrids, I'm sure Rush favors the rights of capitalists to profit from it.
The Prius is a commercial success.  I would think that a good capitalist would applaud that.

roo_ster

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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2007, 05:27:14 PM »
A commercial success when sweetened with a $5000 tax credit...
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roo_ster

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Paddy

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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2007, 05:36:26 PM »
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A commercial success when sweetened with a $5000 tax credit...
More bullshit.  I think I need hipboots at this website.  The credit was $2k before 12/31/05.  Now it's zip, as Toyota has sold way over 60k units.  Please read the regs before bloviating. Thank you.

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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2007, 06:05:28 PM »
Anti Suburban comments deleted as too obvious to state  laugh

roo_ster

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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2007, 07:22:28 PM »
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A commercial success when sweetened with a $5000 tax credit...
More bullshit.  I think I need hipboots at this website.  The credit was $2k before 12/31/05.  Now it's zip, as Toyota has sold way over 60k units.  Please read the regs before bloviating. Thank you.
You might want to walk that back a bit, no hip boots needed in the doing.

A co-worker of mine based in Colorado remarked to me after he bought his Pius, that he was going to get "$5000 in tax credits."  Pretty cool for him, I thought.

It turns out that he got (after RMc prompted me to googlage):
2005 Toyota Prius:
Incremental price difference - $4,040
Tax Credit available $3,434
AND
$2,000 from the federales
Which adds up to $5,434.  It seems my co-worker was modest.

I think such might have an effect on sales.  Inh my buddy's case, he is a gadget-guy from way back & maybe would have bought the latest hybrid doo-dad without any sweetener.

OTOH, I bet darn near any incentive could not spur sales in Alaska, what with the cold's effects on batteries. 

I wonder which state gives the biggest incentives?  I wonder what the mean & median combined (fed, state, other) incentives are for those who bought hybrids?
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roo_ster

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K Frame

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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #46 on: July 28, 2007, 08:43:07 PM »
"They're nothing more than rolling roadblocks."

But, when the price of gas bankrupts you, and you lose your house, they're EXTREMELY roomy to live in. Far more so than a Prius.

We had one in the late 1970s through the 1980s when I was in high school.

Not once did I have to pay for a hotel room. Girlfriend and I would head up to the mountain with a sleeping bag and the Subdivision... er... Suburban.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #47 on: July 28, 2007, 08:49:39 PM »
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Did he claim that manufacturers should not make enough hybrids to meet demand?  If not, then I want a retraction, too.  As long as people want hybrids, I'm sure Rush favors the rights of capitalists to profit from it.
The Prius is a commercial success.  I would think that a good capitalist would applaud that.

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Yeah well he must be making a ton of money to be able to feed that hog.  Suburbans are a PITA.  You can't see around them or over them.  They're nothing more than rolling roadblocks.


Those comments are not just dumb, they're Sean Hannity dumb.  And that's pretty darn dumb.   smiley  Have you seen how many Suburbans (and other large SUVs) are on the road?  You think all of those people are rich?  Like I said, Sean Hannity dumb.  Hint:  Gas is cheap. 
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Tallpine

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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #48 on: July 29, 2007, 07:21:58 AM »
A Prius would make a good pothole filler out where we live  laugh

We go to town maybe once or twice a month.  The load coming home includes 6 or 8 3gal jugs of drinking water, a dozen or so sacks of groceries (plus a large ice chest for the cold stuff), maybe 5 or 6 50# sacks of horse/dog/rabbit food, plus whatever else we needed that trip (hardware, lumber, fence supplies, etc...).

Tell me again why we don't need a pickup/Suburban. Wink
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Firethorn

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Re: Renewable energy wrecks environment
« Reply #49 on: July 29, 2007, 09:24:37 AM »
I wonder which state gives the biggest incentives?  I wonder what the mean & median combined (fed, state, other) incentives are for those who bought hybrids?

I'm pretty sure that it'd be California.  Whenever I browse around it's generally their rebates and incentives that are listed, and they're more than the federal rebates.

Same thing with solar.