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Author Topic: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?  (Read 14045 times)

longeyes

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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2011, 02:16:25 PM »
Missionary politics is dead.  And not just W.'s.

Islam will prove that once and for all.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2011, 02:23:06 PM »
Radical Islam is a minority. More importantly, those men who are actual Radical Islamist terrorists are moral, intellectual weaklings, incapable of living up even to their own perverse moral code. They are like emo kids, killing themselves when someone mocks their prophet. Sometimes they succeed in taking an infidel along, most often they do not. The cartoon incidents caused the deaths of over a hundred and forty Jihadis, and not even one cartoonist was ever harmed.
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tyme

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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2011, 02:26:56 PM »
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If Egypt turns out to have a democracy on the Indonesian level, that would be beautiful.

Agreed.

And if Egypt turns into a democratic Islamic republic worse than Saudi Arabia, and encourages similar change throughout the region, what then?

There are also network effects internationally.  How much will the freedoms in the U.S. or Israel or Western Europe be further curtailed if more governments in the MidEast become friendly toward, or at least more tolerant of, Islamic fundamentalism?

Modern, well-established democracies could rip themselves apart trying to deal with internal and international stresses, and nascent democracies or existing dictatorships could point to Western problems as an object lesson for why liberal democracies are bad.
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longeyes

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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2011, 03:23:19 PM »
There are those who believe "radical Islam" is the problem and those who think ALL Islam is "radical."  It may not be the entirety of Islam that straps bombs on, but it's a hefty percentage that condones it, along with all manner of what we in the West consider cultural, moral, and social barbarities.  Co-existence may be possible--but not within the same polity.
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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2011, 03:30:18 PM »
Quote from: tyme on February 21, 2011, 11:46:44 AM
Now it's: "Democracy's good.  Democracy's stable.  Establish a democracy and your country's set for a good long while."  Democracy, even a Republic alone is not something to cheer for.  The attitudes of the people matter heavily.

I agree that the conventional wisdom in this regard is flawed.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2011, 05:17:52 PM »
Quote from: tyme on February 21, 2011, 02:26:56 PM
Agreed.

And if Egypt turns into a democratic Islamic republic worse than Saudi Arabia, and encourages similar change throughout the region, what then?

There are also network effects internationally.  How much will the freedoms in the U.S. or Israel or Western Europe be further curtailed if more governments in the MidEast become friendly toward, or at least more tolerant of, Islamic fundamentalism?


1. Consider a world - which is the one we're more likely to have - where what emerges is that some of these countries transit to become decent countries (decent for their region, that is), some become Islamic Republics, yet others - like Egypt seems to be doing - simply morphs into more-of-the-same (the military still in control under the guise of reforms)? You're not going to have the same thing happening everywhere at once.

2. What of the many intermediary scenarios? Consider for example an Egypt becoming an electoral democracy where some Islamics get 15% of the vote, and, rather than declare an Islamic Republic, leverage their parliamentary position to ban all skirts shorter than knee-length on pain of $15 fine and reduce cooperation with Israel rather than declare war? At which point are we to start cowering?

3. I live in Israel. I am naturally more concerned for the freedom and safety of people who live physically next to me. But if I were an Egyptian under Mubarak, I'd roll the dice and try to overthrow the bastard - and I bet so would you.
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Scout26

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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2011, 08:17:59 PM »
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That helps to explain why Iran and Syria are in no realistic danger of collapse, yet an entire swath of US-allied Arab states are going or gone.

Sorry, that sent Red Stag and Coke through my nose. 

I take you mean our buddies in Algeria, Tunisia, and Lybia, those guys are "US-allied Arab states" ??  Really ?  I must have missed a memo.... ;/

The Egyptians want Mubarak gone because what they want is the .gov to leave them the hell alone and let them make money, same was what started it in Tunisia.

The Egyptian people have tasted power and they will not be denied what they want.  It might take a iterration or two, but they will get what they want.
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De Selby

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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2011, 08:37:00 PM »
Yes scout, Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen, Jordan, Bahrain, and Libya (although only since 2003) are US allied states. All of them are in a lot more trouble than Syria and Iran.

I agree with you about Egypt.  They will not stop until they have power.  But I don't agree that all they want is money; the crowds are already chanting about marching on Jerusalem
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2011, 11:13:51 PM »
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...the crowds are already chanting about marching on Jerusalem.

The possibility of an anti-Israel government taking control of Egypt is very possible. However, I've read nothing (BBC, Reuters, AP, The Guardian, NY Times, WA Post, etc) about  marchers chanting about marching on Jerusalem.

Citation, please?
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Scout26

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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2011, 12:28:33 AM »
I pointed out Tunisia, Libya, and Algeria.

I'll point to this about Tunisia (Hint: it's a Wikileaks Cable)  http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/217138   Doesn't exactly come across as they're our "Ally".

Libya our "ally"?  Maybe in the "please don't beat me like a red-headed step child" sense, but that's it.  I don't recall Gaddafi being on the White House's "A" list.  Or "B" list, or "C" list or even "D" list...

And you completely ignored Algeria.  

Bravo, counselor, Bravo !!!


In all these cases it has nothing to do with US support or lack thereof, it has to do with the people having said "Enough!!!  We're tired of .gov repression!!!"  
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 01:12:49 AM by scout26 »
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De Selby

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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2011, 04:09:31 AM »
Quote from: Monkeyleg on February 21, 2011, 11:13:51 PM
The possibility of an anti-Israel government taking control of Egypt is very possible. However, I've read nothing (BBC, Reuters, AP, The Guardian, NY Times, WA Post, etc) about  marchers chanting about marching on Jerusalem.

Citation, please?

Sure, I saw it originally on television, and there are youtube videos of the chants:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLM3CswkfQw&feature=youtu.be

Translation is in the comments - "To Jerusalem we go, martyrs in the millions" and "Today Egypt, Tomorrow Palestine"


Here's a post about signs in hebrew (mocking Israel) http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2011/02/egypt_demonstrations
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2011, 08:58:06 AM »
I read through some of the comments on the YouTube video and the blog replies, but couldn't find what you were referring to. Maybe they delete commentary by Christiane Amanpour or George Will.
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De Selby

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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2011, 09:21:51 AM »
Quote from: Monkeyleg on February 22, 2011, 08:58:06 AM
I read through some of the comments on the YouTube video and the blog replies, but couldn't find what you were referring to. Maybe they delete commentary by Christiane Amanpour or George Will.

It's in the page of comments that appears for me:

"Egyptian millions cheer from Tahrir Square "To Jerusalem we go, martyrs in the millions...""

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2011, 11:39:01 AM »
Quote
(Note: commenters are right. I misread it. It is Hebrew, and it says azov Mubarak - "leave, Mubarak".)

A terrible anti-Israeli message.
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Buzzcook

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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2011, 03:11:30 PM »
Bush was wrong in thinking that only military intervention would topple middle-eastern regimes.

Looks like we could have just waited out Saddam and the Taliban. Instead we've radicalized many Muslims and killed thousands of US soldiers and tens of thousands of Iraqis and Afghans.

So another question is will the people who demanded invasion and ridiculed other solutions rethink their position.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2011, 03:27:43 PM »
Paddy, is that you?
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De Selby

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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2011, 08:43:07 PM »
Quote from: MicroBalrog on February 22, 2011, 11:39:01 AM
A terrible anti-Israeli message.

Yes, written in Hebrew it is - they're seeing Mubarak as an Israeli agent.  The Israel-Palestine conflict is front center in the revolutionaries' minds.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2011, 09:20:31 PM »
Quote from: De Selby on February 22, 2011, 08:43:07 PM
Yes, written in Hebrew it is - they're seeing Mubarak as an Israeli agent.  The Israel-Palestine conflict is front center in the revolutionaries' minds.

I am shuddering in my leather occupier boots.
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2011, 11:08:33 PM »
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The Israel-Palestine conflict is front center in the revolutionaries' minds.

And you would know what they're thinking...how?
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2011, 11:19:48 PM »
Why, some of their placards are written in Hebrew.
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De Selby

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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2011, 11:36:54 PM »
Quote from: Monkeyleg on February 22, 2011, 11:08:33 PM
And you would know what they're thinking...how?

The fact that a millionof them are chanting about going to Jerusalem as martyrs?

Micro, I think this situation has serious consequences for israel on a timescale measured in decades, obviously not overnight.  There will be consequences to the obstinance of various Israeli governments on the Palestinian issue along the way. 

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2011, 11:42:01 PM »
By that time I'm quite sure we'll have the Palestinian issue squared away - but of course if there's anything this proves it's that you can't plan this far ahead in the Middle East or anywhere.
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Scout26

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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2011, 12:12:13 AM »
Quote from: De Selby on February 22, 2011, 08:43:07 PM
Yes, written in Hebrew it is - they're seeing Mubarak as an Israeli agent. 

Wow, that's quite a leap there and without a net !!!

 ;/
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Put our backs to the north wind.
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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2011, 12:22:12 AM »
Quote from: MicroBalrog on February 22, 2011, 11:19:48 PM
Why, some of their placards are written in Hebrew.
And a lot of them are written in English, too. I get the idea that a lot of signs are for the media, not just for the locals. I saw signs in English during the Thailand demonstrations, and in many other places. Did not notice any for the Libyan protests, though I may've only seen a skewed sample.
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Does Mid-East turmoil prove Bush was right?
« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2011, 01:00:18 AM »
Some of the signs were written in disappearing ink. That proves that Mubarek is an Israli agent!
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